New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Alice Aurelia]

2 hours ago, Sora Cyclone said:

Люди обвиняют в этом LL, но неужели вы   думаете, что они откажутся от бесплатных денег? Это должно быть решение, которое за них принял какой-то регулирующий орган.

Гача, вероятно, подпадает под тот же зонтик, что и лутбоксы в некоторых странах. Кто-то, вероятно, наконец заметил это и послал LL строго сформулированное письмо и восхитительный штраф, чтобы заплатить.

It is very profitable for LL to stop gacha machines, when the creators will transfer their items to the MP, and almost all transactions will pass through the MP,  LL will receive their 10 percent.

[DeeJay Peapod]

4 minutes ago, Alan Cyr said:

LL isn't likely to get sued or regulated out of existence. As for your list of things: LL has nothing to do with any of them so I dunno how they are relevant as comparisons.

The best thing about SL burgers is that you can eat as many as you want and *nevet* get fat (except by your own choice!)

My comment wasnt just about SL though it stems from what looks to be a blanket law passed by the EU my guess over companies like EA, and because the law casts such a wide net, instead of targeting the actual problem, it has this trickling effect where it causes more problems than just for the people who caused the problems in the first place. my observation was based on the inherent "risk/reward system" which some deem to actually be fun, gachas can be fun if you view them for what they actually are. youre not putting money in a slot machine and not getting anything back. Despite so many times I've seen the argument that its gambling (and it may very well be), the blanket cast by the EU over EA's "lootcrates" which was in fact an actual form of gambling as the return on a purchase could actually be 0. Where as gachas in SL, (or atleast all the ones I have seen) do not operate on that principle. So with that said you're still getting "some" kind of value on your payment into the gacha machine, Its not always the creator who determines worth. Just because the word "rare" is tacked onto something we all want it because we think it holds some semblance of value instead of "wow thats actually really cool, yeah i want that". So in the long and short of it, when blanket laws are passed instead of going after the source of the problem it does in fact open up the flood gates for more ridiculous blanket laws, instead of actually going after the direct source of these problems and maybe setting the example for future changes instead of trying to smother it all to death.

 

[Sora Cyclone]

1 minute ago, mmmlisi4ka said:

It is very profitable for LL to stop gacha machines, when the creators will transfer their items to the MP, and almost all transactions will pass through the MP,  LL will receive their 10 percent.

LL already gets the money when you buy the lindens to purchase gacha stuff.  LL gets their cut no matter where you're purchasing it from.  You literally buy the money you're spending on these things from them.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

6 minutes ago, Roxy Bergiere said:

As a content creator, I know that a good portion of merchant income comes from gacha machines.

Predatory practices are profitable, yes, we know, or unscrupulous creators wouldn't use them.

8 minutes ago, Roxy Bergiere said:

Adults should decide for themselves how to spend their money.

They do, please explain why you believe people should have to purchase products they do not want in the hope of getting the one they do want.

8 minutes ago, Roxy Bergiere said:

With all this being said, where do these types of decsions stop? Will all the pixel bars in SL close next because some people are real life alcoholics? 

The whataboutism is too damn high.

[DeeJay Peapod]

8 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

About the time humans either eliminate themselves or realize they are on the verge of extinction before too much longer and change their ways.

I hate it but it's true.

facts

[Adeon Writer]

 

5 minutes ago, Jeny Howlett said:

omg nooo The Arcade and Epiphany and other gacha events will cease to exist

I would love it if this means The Arcade would be filled with actual boardwalk carnival games for product rewards instead of just random pulls.

 

Which makes me wonder, are "point redemption booth" style things permitted, since you are choosing what to spend points on?

Edited August 2, 2021 by Adeon Writer

[Paul Hexem]

I owe a few people an "I told you so."

[LilithServil]

Honestly super frustrated.

About 75% of the decor in my home, and a TON of accessories I have, are gacha items. Why? Because 50L for a spin at a gacha to get an item when I typically want most pieces of the set anyway, is a steal. And if I only want one piece? Half the time it's cheaper on the MP than as an actual gacha spin.

Now those items won't exist anymore or will probably be sold in packs for MUCH more than the individual spins cost for small trinkets anyway.

And what about gacha avatars? The concept of full avatar gachas were awesome and several creators put out some really neat content. No more of that I guess.

Taking gachas away because of gambling addiction is a weak excuse; gacha games i.e Genshin Impact are super scummy BECAUSE you have no alternate route to buy the items you want directly. You're forced to buy spins over and over and over until the rigged RNG gives you the thing you want out of hundreds of potential items. SL gachas never had this problem because you can just flat out buy from gacha resellers, trade with friends, and resell what you don't want. There's no loss to playing them because if you don't want the item, chances are it's an item someone else has been wanting. You can't do any of that in gacha games that are actually problematic and prey on gambling addictions, you're just forced to keep buying or give up.

[DeeJay Peapod]

1 minute ago, Adeon Writer said:

 

I would love it if this means The Arcade would be filled with actual boardwalk carnival games for product rewards instead of just random pulls.

more dissenting opinions

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Adeon Writer said:

 

I would love it if this means The Arcade would be filled with actual boardwalk carnival games for product rewards instead of just random pulls.

Is it still gacha / gambling if you buy tokens (with random extra steps) to then trade for products?

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Linden Lab said:

For details about our new policy change regarding gacha, read our blog post. 

For further questions, please join the conversation in this post. 

 

***UPDATE: Due to the sheer volume of responses, it will be difficult for us to attempt to answer all questions in this thread in a systematic way, so we will put put together an FAQ and update the main blog post with it shortly.

It's important to point out, as there are so many Internet lawyers who don't understand anything about US jurisprudence, that LL is referring not to a law that is enforced, but "a regulatory climate". By that, they mean that they wish to remove any liability for litigation against their business, and remove any cause for scrutiny of their business that could obstruct it. It's like when they finally got rid of "*****," although the law against this in the US is not as strict or defined as it is in Germany, and got rid of gambling, although it was only US law that legislated against it, because, despite being a US-based internationally accessed platform, they don't want trouble. In the case of these two latter activities, German prosecutors and US media and one particularly aggressive lawyer in SL agitated to make this happen, but it was not they who succeeded, it was US credit card companies that said they would withdraw their services for SL.

Among the new owners of SL is a person with a past in the US Dept of Justice who may have driven this move, but high profile forums complainers can also no doubt take credit. and I can think of one Australian chortling with glee, although it isn't really cause for gloating.

LL has said very little in its post about actual law and its jurisprudence, has not supplied a statement of facts from either its attorneys or board members/new owners, so they should be more specific. Mainly there have been a fair number of hysterically hypothetical news articles on this topic from the tech press notorious for such hypotheticals, so it would be interesting to know what triggered the policy ultimately. Gacha is outlawed in Japan and other countries, but it is not outlawed as such in the US; the distinction has to be made between draft laws announced by a prominent conservative Congressman (now indicted for the Jan 6 insurrection) and numerous jittery law firm announcements trying to drum up business. I don't see any new facts anywhere about an actual new law that is enforced, unlike the US law against Internet gambling which AFAIK hasn't been interpreted as applying to gatchas.

I expect this to have a dramatically adverse effect on the economy, turning the summer slump possibly into a short dead cat bounce, and making the fall like the summer slump -- and worse. Why? Because merchants turned to gatchas not merely because they like annoying customers but because they relied on gatchas for income in a world with increasing economic obstacles because:

o LL began taking 10% of sales from the MP;

o Cost of tier, which, while decreasing over time and balanced by an increase in prims, is still a major factor for sunk costs;

o Increase of cost of cash-out of Linden dollars for US dollars;

o Proliferation of merchants at every level, so increased competition;

o Huge costs of booth fees and time/effort for an ever more insane schedule of merchant events;

o 30L Saturday type sales -- themselves a coping strategy against gatcha madness -- which then themselves proliferated, exhausting both shoppers and merchants -- forcing merchants back to gatchas at times.

Most merchants in fact find gatchas an enormous drag on them due to the need to create ever new and exciting ones in a climate of proliferation, and the endless complaints of customers that they didn't get the rare. I had no idea that this got to creators so much until I talked to a few recently who stopped completely creating gatcha sets for this reason.

I have a site inworld on gatcha addiction which might be helpful to some people now.

What I have found is that  as a customer you cannot generally make back even half of what you paid for gatchas and that the illusion that a few extra rares will make up for your spree is deep illusion. I don't think gatchas help the bottom line of a lot of merchants any more, who are also exhausted BTW with the weekend sales, requiring work often in recolouring and reissue, and the numerous merchant events. Still, they are an infusion, an infusion of empty calories perhaps, but a real infusion.

Most of all merchants hate the fact that people get angry that they haven't won a rare begin banging on creators with the completely false concept that they are "owed" a rare if they have played X number of times, revealing the poverty of math education particularly in the US and the lack of understanding of how randomness works. A gatcha machine, unless it is a very particularly programmed one, can't know how many times you've played such as to then "give you your due". Each pull is a new event in which you have the same X percent of winning. Most merchants don't deliberately set hard percentages but simply use the default script that comes in the gatcha machine maker's device. Yes, a few prominent creators do set very hard percents but  what's important to know is that the sheer insane hatred and anger of customers over this lack of understanding already long ago forced some very prominent makers out of the gatcha business. Another problem with gatchas is that once a set is made and put in the box, the maker generally can't go back and revise anything and it becomes a historical archive of his work that he's prefer not to have out there when he is getting better and making new things.

I hope merchants now will go back to making new releases that they offer for 25% or 50% discount not just at the frenzy of merchant events but in their own store. I hope this will drive more people to make stores where you can shop and see things in ways you can't in a gatcha machine. I hope they will begin to rely more on customer loyalty lists and perks to get sales in a more natural way than fueling addiction. Maybe there will be some increased sales of $2500 gatcha sets but I see some merchants in fact putting those sets out even before all this for $250 or even as low as $75 as they are really old creations not always benefiting from the latest technology. Let's hope current gatcha bundles going for $2500 now drop down to $1500; most living room sets don't cost $1500, but $750 or even less, so let's see gatcha sets drop down in price now.

I love gatchas as a way to cheaply decorate rentals and also provide group gifts because the items I myself make are amateurish and not going to be in demand. I have so many gift givers out there that aren't tapped at all that I long ago became aware of how saturated the gatcha market is, that offering someone a free gatcha inspires a yawn or worry about increasingly out-of-control inventory. People sending me entire folders of their extra gatchas to put out in my land preserve, another sign of their cheapening value.  Maybe they will be more appreciated now, since from what I can tell, offering a gatcha as a free gift, even if in a random group gift giver, is not a violation of the policy.

About three months ago, without any anticipation of this policy (I was wrong that LL would fall vulnerable to the "climate" around them), and truly jaded at the bad gatcha events with $100 pulls and no player awards, and increasingly low quality induced by event fatigue, I started collecting art. For various reasons, in part from having some artists as tenants, and going around to art galleries in SL as a virtual placebo to former RL activity, induced by the pandemic (which is still on for me, with an immune disease, despite having the vaccines) -- I began to assemble various works, make some galleries, decorate places with art rather than rare gatchas. A work of art an artist may have spent months making is simply more beautiful than even an exquisite gatcha rare in many cases as the quality of gatcha rares has really gone downhill, again, induced by all the factors I've mentioned -- fatigue, haste, competition, costs.

And I have to say art is s so much more satisfying than Saturday sales, which rarely have anything of value, or merchant event insanity. I can see what I am getting, and often it is a unique copy on transfer, and a limited edition. The conversations I have had with artists, some of whom make their living with art and are artists in RL, have been among the most rewarding I've ever had in SL. The art shows and installations are truly amazing as more and more artists use the affordances of SL. The world seems to have gone through its own upheavals and burnouts over the years, tied to RL events like the recession and the pandemic, but also with the strange hothouse politics of art in SL itself. So I hope others will turn from gatcha pulls to buying art and sculptures and helping to support galleries and artists in SL I don't see any art re-sale market (yet) for art in SL and I myself wouldn't want to re-sell a unique copy of something I got for $250 or even $2500. But likely there will be some who will. We will likely see more NFT-type activity now.

Meanwhile, I look forward to patronizing my favourite merchants during this period as they go through what will undoubtedly be a severe contraction for some. Some don't even make gatchas or quit making them and get by with the weekend sales, which I suppose will now become even more insane. Others might now see the wisdom of making new sets that they dole out over time for very low costs that will be like a gatcha except WUSIWYG, which will be a reward. They could keep customers guessing as to when they will drop the "rare" of such sets, i.e. the best and likely most coveted item. This will drive traffic to their stores.

LL will not likely lose from this severe blow to the economy as they will collect more sales on the MP from both gatcha and non-gatcha sales there; they will see more merchants get under tier again as they buy stores and attempt to use store sales or special releases in lieu of gatchas a events.

The giant rentals company that has a sideline in gatcha events will likely be unhurt and deface the sky with more domes. The merchant whose own creations are mainly sold -- if at all -- at weekend sales who has run giant gatcha events will be among those complaining and seeking reversal or mitigation of the policy. I suspect like gambling, there will be secret gatcha machine pulls in the dead of night on dark sims...

I have been wanting to write a post for a year but I hardly ever blog any more about the end of the era of the great high-quality gatcha story-tellers -- gatchas that had a whole story behind them, or a myth or mystique, that created worlds of storyteller's burrows or mermaid dogs or shaman's staffs or sliced carpaccio. Some of those merchants stopped making gatchas of that caliber with that much story and theme or cohesion, or some stopped completely -- I was surprised to see one from anc this week, for example, after a long hiatus. Now the era will be over forever. It's interesting to me to contemplate that some of the very high end gatcha set resellers who would commands sales of $50,000 are inactive or gone from SL, they must have sensed the market change was coming...

Edited August 2, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Kyrah Abattoir]

2 minutes ago, DeeJay Peapod said:

instead of targeting the actual problem

The problem is actually being dealt with, the fact it negatively impact gacha resellers is not a bug, it is a feature.

4 minutes ago, DeeJay Peapod said:

my observation was based on the inherent "risk/reward system" which some deem to actually be fun, gachas can be fun if you view them for what they actually are. youre not putting money in a slot machine and not getting anything back.

Gamblers do have fun while they gamble their all their savings away, people also have fun in skinner boxes. An item you have no use for is "not getting anything back".

Supply & demand, if there is no demand, the value of a product is effectively zero.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I owe a few people an "I told you so."

I'm doing my best not to say it. 

[LilithServil]

2 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

They do, please explain why you believe people should have to purchase products they do not want in the hope of getting the one they do want.

... Just look the item you want up on the MP and buy it there instead? And if it's not there, just... y'know, wait for someone else to inevitably get it and put it up for sale? If someone can't control their "I WANT IT NOW" mentality then there's a deeper issue than gachas bad.

Most gachas I've seen are like... 75L at most. Basically no high-end item is going to be that much of a steal unless it's a giveaway/flash sale/event/promo, and you're paying for a CHANCE to get an expensive item at that price. If you don't want to try for a chance at getting an item worth 500L for 75... then just... buy it from a reseller for 500...?

[KathleenDawn]

2 hours ago, VicariousSally said:

What about gacha resellers through marketplace? How will this impact our MP as its NOT a chance sell like the gacha machine itself....

This rule looks like it's for the random gacha machines only and resellers on MP are fine to continue selling gacha items for as long as their supply lasts. 

[Alan Cyr]

2 minutes ago, LilithServil said:

Taking gachas away because of gambling addiction is a weak excuse

LL aren't making that excuse. LL are saying they need to follow the law in the territories in which they operate.

You think that the law is wrong? Contact your representatives. 

[Vesca Starlight]

7 minutes ago, Roxy Bergiere said:

This is a terrible decision. As a content creator, I know that a good portion of merchant income comes from gacha machines.

Probably because they are predatory and take advantage of people? I mean selling drugs probably makes people a lot of money but it plays on addiction and ends up hurting people for real, which is why so many countries and states started to really give lootboxes a good look over because we had the same problem in other games on other platforms.

Kudos to you for the fundraising stuff though, but intentions still don't really change the underlying problems in the bigger picture.

8 minutes ago, Roxy Bergiere said:

Will all the pixel bars in SL close next because some people are real life alcoholics? 

I think that is a strawman? I could have the term wrong. Regardless its an extreme that likely will never be the case, especially since governments have tried to get rid of or regulate many things in video games and media to that extent and failed, violent videogames don't cause violence, drinking in a video game doesn't make you a drunk, etc.

[s2Pandora]

24 minutes ago, Fionne Burleigh said:

I'm almost glad, though I enjoy gachas. Recently I've bought a couple of gachas that automatically became copy/no transfer after opening the box which is crap in my book. Particularly since one of them didn't have 2 important pieces and the creator never returned my NC. I think it's time to get rid of my gacha stash though.

I hate "vouchers" for this reason. Maybe you want to try it on and see if it fits your idea for a character..

BUT NOPE! It's stuck to you now and you don't want it.

[BlitzDrake Ravenhurst]

What a devastating decision for so many content creators.  While I do understand some people hated gotchas, they were never required for anyone to play in SL in order to 'progress' or have better gear (as in lootboxes in other games).  Rather, I have to agree with those who compare them to gumball machines.  You always got SOMETHING, maybe not the rare or the item you wanted, but you did get something (that you could even resell if you didn't want it).

 

For those who are saying that it's great, now they can purchase just the parts they want, you are ignoring (or are just oblivious to) the fact that most gotchas are designed as a full concept.  I predict very few content creators are going to break thier gotchas up and sell the pieces.  They are far more likely to just pack them all into a fairly expensive fat pack where you have to buy the whole thing, and not just the one or two pieces you wanted.

[Adeon Writer]

6 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Is it still gacha / gambling if you buy tokens (with random extra steps) to then trade for products?

it wouldn't be gacha, but it would be gambling, and probably be restricted to skill gaming regions if allowed at all.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Adeon Writer

[Xavier69 Andretti]

I love gacha stuff, its not gambling! I am buying a product with each try and frankly its fun. For those of you who see it as gambling then maybe you need to look at yourself and understand you might have issues. I have been in this world almost every day sense Feb 2010, I work, have an RL and more. I have seen allot of changes and this one is concerning, what makes this amazing place what it is is the creatures, I can see this upsetting many of them and with the loss of revenue calling it a done deal over an absurd policy change. I hope and pray this isn't the beginning of the end, Thank you creatures for all your hard work, your efforts are greatly appreciated. 

[So Whimsy]

1 minute ago, Xavier69 Andretti said:

I love gacha stuff, its not gambling!

The law says otherwise.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

3 minutes ago, LilithServil said:

you're paying for a CHANCE to get an expensive item at that price.

Odds are pretty much never published, machine internal behaviors are undocumented.

I mused many times about creating an opensource gacha machine that drops rares at a fixed time rate and only when there is more than 1 person close enough to see that a rare dropped. Just to demonstrate how scummy this system is.

[Caprisin]

People are missing the point over all 

Gachas are indeed just a quarter machine as we call them mostly here in the states anymore. You get a toy (or in this cause a item) and it could be something of value at one point like any collectable. (which the figures we used to get in the 90s being moved to blind bags now and costing way more)

Loot boxes got branded as gachas cause mobile companies wanted to be slick and try to trick people... And frankly it worked as I see so many in this thread trying to link gacha and loot boxes together .. WHICH are different even though there is still a chance for said items.

Gachas have always been up front with a insert or picture of what you get

Loot boxes unless themed had to be datamined to see what was inside.



So if we are going to ban what a gacha really is cause of the loot box crazy cause parents can't take care of their kids in a proper manner and just toss them in front of a computer (Some of our parents did this with tv mind you) then everything related need to go (blind bags/trading cards/etc) and we just not have fun anymore.




 

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, SativaStaryk said:

You are telling me that a person clicking on the gacha is not aware of what they are doing and has no control over their actions? They have made a cognitive decision on clicking their mouse to obtain a random prize. They are choosing to click and spend what they want, just as they are clicking on any other thing in SL with the understanding that they are going to get something they are clicking on, weather it be random or intentional purchase. Freedom of choice is it not?

Freedom to make, or not, the choice of whether to play the Gatcha machine in the first place.    I have always chosen not to, because I don't like to waste my time trying to win the item(s) I want, so my range of choices will be greatly improved, since now I will be free to choose whether or not to buy whatever I want for whatever the creator considers a fair price, provided I think it worth paying, without wasting my time (more valuable to me than what I'd expect to pay as a market price for even the most expensive "rare" items when I can find them in the Marketplace).