Is BOTs traffic gaming SERIOUSLY breaking Second Life search?

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I guess you're speaking to me...since I did ask you a question an hour ago and have mentioned a lack of critical thinking skills with some people on occasion.

I think I'll be the one who decides if it was a rhetorical question...and no it was not.

You said:

"For what it's worth, if I tp into a region, see a bunch of bots on a platform or people standing around fishing, I leave and never return so put all the traffic building stuff you'd like there.  The only thing it does is to tell me where not to go."

I really did want to know why you would not shop at a store that had fun things to do, like fishing.  Now the bots, I understand...that's illegal...and they add nothing of substance to the world.  But a game would make the store a bad one for you? why?

 

Expand  Expand  

Wow.  For the same reason as people use bots as has been explained countless times.  Fishing is used for the same purpose 99% of the time as that is how it's advertised.  If a store has to use fishing/bots to increase traffic, already a strike against them.  Sell a better product and they will come.  

Seemed pretty self explanatory.

The thing is...a better product does not always translate to people coming or more sales. You do have to advertise, and people do that in all sorts of ways here.

I agree there are better ways to advertise than others, and we should be legal or not take advantage of the system somehow.

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I really did want to know why you would not shop at a store that had fun things to do, like fishing.  Now the bots, I understand...that's illegal...and they add nothing of substance to the world.  But a game would make the store a bad one for you? why?

Personally .. If i'm going to a store, I am there with the sole purpose of buying something or browsing with the intent to buy.

A host of fake people (alts, multiboxers and yes, BOTS) crowded around a fishing mini game for token amounts of L$ or freebies informs me that the store is not infact popular for the products they sell.

The products should sell themselves, if they don't, that's a red flag and I wont be wasting my time or money at that store.

[Janet Voxel]

25 minutes ago, Finite said:

I would agree except you can lower your settings to pre-2010 graphics and get the same image quality from pictures in game as the ones you see on the MP (72ppi). I don't think the reason people use MP has much to do with their computers (with bitcoin increasing the value and technology of video cards, even basic computers are far more advanced for gaming than they ever were before. Before video cards had a hard time keeping up with games, now games have a hard time of keeping up with what video cards can produce). I think it's more of a convenience thing and general lack of knowing where to look than anything else.

You're assuming most people have that much technical knowledge.

 

They don't.

A lot of viewers have defaults waaaay over what people's computers can handle and they don't know how to fix it and sometimes, what would fix it, doesn't because they're on a really low end PC.

 I was talking to my daughter last night and she's on a $150 refurbished HP desktop from Amazon with like 4 gb of RAM, no graphics card, etc etc. It's basically a computer that's good for browsing the internet and word processing. That's what she's using  for SL (and that's an upgrade), there are a lot of people like that. There are also places with crappy internet. There's a lot of reasons people avoid busy, high poly places. We spent about n hour looking at how she could "upgrade" her PC, the best she could do is RAM, graphics cards are out right now

People's hardware is a big part of it for sure.

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

22 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I really did want to know why you would not shop at a store that had fun things to do, like fishing.  Now the bots, I understand...that's illegal...and they add nothing of substance to the world.  But a game would make the store a bad one for you? why?

Personally .. If i'm going to a store, I am there with the sole purpose of buying something or browsing with the intent to buy.

A host of fake people (alts, multiboxers and yes, BOTS) crowded around a fishing mini game for token amounts of L$ or freebies informs me that the store is not infact popular for the products they sell.

The products should sell themselves, if they don't, that's a red flag and I wont be wasting my time or money at that store.

Well I just took an alt to a popular garden store, and there was a weird humanoid thing with text by it (a bot I guess) and people sitting around doing nothing (alts I imagine). Their stuff is really good though. So how do you reconcile that, or would you just not shop there?  

* oh, and what is a 'multiboxer'?

Edited March 3, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Finite]

1 minute ago, Janet Voxel said:

You're assuming most people have that much technical knowledge.

 

They don't.

 

That's a pretty big assumption yourself. You don't need technical knowledge to lower a bar (that was simplified for the purpose of the average person being able to figure it out). Computers have been apart of everyday life now for so long and are to the point that even old people can figure their way around them. So I wouldn't assume people do not have basic technical knowledge.

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

You're assuming most people have that much technical knowledge.

They don't.

I was talking to my daughter last night and she's on a $150 refurbished HP desktop from Amazon with like 4 gb of RAM, no graphics card, etc etc.

Yeah it amazed me when I discovered how many have bad computers. A group of them over in Inworldz formed some kind of 'prim preservation society' organization and begged me to bring in prim and sculpt flowers because they had trouble seeing mesh.

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Finite said:

That's a pretty big assumption yourself. You don't need technical knowledge to lower a bar (that was simplified for the purpose of the average person being able to figure it out). Computers have been apart of everyday life now for so long and are to the point that even old people can figure their way around them. So I wouldn't assume people do not have basic technical knowledge.

Oh, you'd be surprised how many haven't a clue.

[Janet Voxel]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yeah it amazed me when I discovered how many have bad computers. A group of them over in Inworldz formed some kind of 'prim preservation society' organization and begged me to bring in prim and sculpt flowers because they had trouble seeing mesh.

I mean LL has even said it and it’s still hard to believe. It should make perfect sense that if the pc only really good for browsing the internet they are going to use the internet to shop too. Imagine how frustrating it must be for someone who has a low end pc to shop at an event or a store.

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Oh, you'd be surprised how many haven't a clue.

Personally I am rather frustrated by it.

[Finite]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Oh, you'd be surprised how many haven't a clue.

Lol. no I probably wouldn't. But she quoted me a sentence in which I said the word popular. Which would mean, in a sense, a majority. While I can accept that there are people with lesser computers and/or slower internet speeds. I can't accept that they are in a majority. The question was: Is the marketplace popular? Answer: Yes because a lot of people have slow computers. Sorry I disagree that that is the reason MP is popular.

[Janet Voxel]

11 minutes ago, Finite said:

That's a pretty big assumption yourself. 

Not really. All you have to do is hang out in a body group chat or even firestorm’s group chat for a week. You can’t assume people have technical knowledge.

When you find yourself saying “All you gotta do is....” stop yourself. It may not be that easy for some people.

[Finite]

1 minute ago, Janet Voxel said:

Not really. All you have to do is hang out in a body group chat or even firestorm’s group chat for a week. You can’t assume people have technical knowledge.

When you find yourself saying “All you gotta do is....” stop yourself. It may not be that easy for some people.

It's easy to come to that conclusion when you only hear from people who are having problems. Since the people who aren't having any issues have no reason to comment.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Finite

[Janet Voxel]

8 minutes ago, Finite said:

Lol. no I probably wouldn't. But she quoted me a sentence in which I said the word popular. Which would mean, in a sense, a majority. While I can accept that there are people with lesser computers and/or slower internet speeds. I can't accept that they are in a majority. The question was: Is the marketplace popular? Answer: Yes because a lot of people have slow computers. Sorry I disagree that that is the reason MP is popular.

I see, you're being semantic.

2 hours ago, Finite said:

Is marketplace really that popular? 

To which I answered yes it is and I gave you one reason why it is. Everybody doesn't go to events and inworld stores, yet they still shop...that only leaves MP for shopping.

[Coffee Pancake]

23 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Their stuff is really good though. So how do you reconcile that, or would you just not shop there?  

I don't shop there. Simple as that.

Thirst is not attractive.

23 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

* oh, and what is a 'multiboxer'?

Someone who runs multiple sessions at the same time.

 

[Finite]

6 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I see, you're being semantic.

To which I answered yes it is and I gave you one reason why it is. Everybody doesn't go to events and inworld stores, yet they still shop...that only leaves MP for shopping.

So you were saying that's part of the reason it's popular.

Got it. 👍

[Tari Landar]

2 hours ago, Finite said:

Is marketplace really that popular? I feel the longer I have played the game the less I find myself shopping at marketplace. I feel there's a dependency on MP for new players that older players gradually gravitate away from. 

I loathe most inworld shopping, so when I do it, it's with a specific purpose in mind. An enormous amount of my actual purchases are made on MP and yes for many merchants that is very much their primary source of revenue. Some folks prefer purchasing on MP because it gives them the option of leaving a review (those folks may be fewer and far between, but they do exist). I like it because I don't have to wander all over some place to find something specific (forced landing point, widespread store, etc.. etc..). Even many occasions when I go inworld to look at something, I may still very well purchase it on MP, especially if I am looking at multiple items from different sellers to find what I want. I can see it inworld, but might tp out somewhere else if I find another merchant selling it. To ultimately make my purchase, going home is the more sensible option, since I can then rez/use it immediately. 

Then there's also the enormous amount of items I buy that aren't available inworld at all, lol. 

[Rolig Loon]

I think it would be interesting to see statistics that would give an idea about the amount of trade through Marketplace relative to total sales in SL.  It would be really hard to get numbers, but they might help resolve some of the questions here. Personally, I gave up selling in world after many years and now sell only through MP because (a) it's rent-free (b) it's low-maintenance and (c) LL deals with any redeliveries. Selling things is not as important to me these days as it was 8 or 10 years ago.

When I am shopping, though, I still prefer to go to in world shops if I can. I use MP as a catalog for identifying merchandise and merchants that look promising, but then I visit the inworld shop.  That's especially true for animations, sounds, and textures.  Same for trees and other landscaping stuff. I would certainly do that if I were shopping for buildings.  Not so much for clothing.  I can't explain my rationale fully.  I suppose it's at least partly because I like to see some items in context, but some of it may just be habit.

[Finite]

I see that for sure. I'd guess MP brings in more transactions overall but I'd certainly like to see how it compares to events head to head. That would be interesting I think.

I've just grown to have a few issues with MP and find the experience of inworld shopping overall better.

[Polenth Yue]

52 minutes ago, Finite said:

I see that for sure. I'd guess MP brings in more transactions overall but I'd certainly like to see how it compares to events head to head. That would be interesting I think.

I've just grown to have a few issues with MP and find the experience of inworld shopping overall better.

I make more money at events, but it means I need to be active and making stuff for the events. The marketplace and inworld shop will keep making money even if I do nothing else. Generally, the marketplace makes more than the shop, but it's different names at each. Having both covers more people.

I prefer to shop inworld, though unless it's an item I really must have, I will leave if it isn't a fun experience. I do avoid places with the money games too close to the shop (or in the shop) as the money tends to bring out the worst in people.

[Mercedes Avon]

If you look at the list of URLs using the buoys you find a lot of them are player's home parcels. I used one buoy I had for that purpose. I had a sim I landscaped and was very proud of, and I wanted people to come in and see it and provide fun things for people to do. Furthermore, I didn't sell anything there. I fished one last night (not through Clip's game) and it was a sim that was an amusement park, and it was neat. I also see a lot of adult places use them. I am not sure why, and I have often joked with fishing friends that if someone saw our teleport history they would think we were the biggest freaks in SL.

The other buoy I used in my stores to increase traffic. That of course was back when that mattered. Back then you had to have traffic to have a decent ranking in search.  You couldn't walk into a store and not see bot models on pose stands everywhere. Like it or not, that is how things use to be.

The third buoy I used on clan land (yes, they have little fishing clans you can join).

I also fished a lot over the years. For me, it was not about earning lindens. I started when a friend got into it and I joined in. I then met other friends, and now half my friend list is fishing players. While for some it is not social, for me, it was very much about socializing. The community is actually robust, full of friendly individuals and good people. I found it a nice because it was something to do that didn't include getting hit on non-stop.

I still enjoy fishing, but now I go with other fishing games in SL and for reasons that are probably pretty obvious.

[RunawayBunny]

Fishing in SL:

[Phil Deakins]

18 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

So his fishing game only breaks Search in severely edge-type cases (someone using Places instead of Classified to search for a commercial item). The difference between the fishing games and the bots and how they affect Search is so great it's simply not comparable -- it's not 'the pot calling the kettle black', it's 1/16th of a teaspoon of tar calling an enormous kettle black...

As others have said, people do use Places search to find products, and there is a very compelling reason to do so - comparatively few stores take out classified ads because they cost a fair amount each week, and they are often in bidding battles for rankings. Remember when some classifieds reached as high as many thousands of L$ each week? I never used classifieds for my store because there was never any reason to, and I believe that most sellers don't use them either. Imo, your reasoning is a bit off on that. So 'pot' and 'kettle' are correct

 

18 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

I'm still waiting to hear how botrafficing is actually breaking SL search (given it's already broken how much worse could it get?)

Solar answered this already and I'll add to it. The OP didn't actually mean 'breaking'. He meant that traffic-bots change the order in which the results are displayed in the legacy search, which they do. The legacy search isn't broken at all, and nothing that's been mentioned breaks it. He used the word 'breaking', so we're using too.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Drayke Newall]

13 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Now see, this is what I was talking about in an earlier post! Things like this are what should be done with Bots/Scripted Agents and such!

I agree. 'tis a shame people don't use them properly. A lot has to do with the mindset of they buy the script and leave it as is (which is literally a couple of lines) rather than editing it for them to work better.

A friend and I on our sim when a lot of the scripted agent stuff for bots came out tweaked the scripts and then had a landing zone like a space port. Wanted to make it more life like and busy for visitors so put two of the bots together and started up a conversation by just saying hello to one with a specific line. The bot of course responded but due to the other being in range it picked up the response instead.

We had enough lines within it that they both would converse with each other non stop (though admittedly there was the odd time they did loop). The only main issue came when the sim was reset or went down without notice, requiring them to be started again.

In a different case we set one up as a customs officer (plus a few other specific areas in the sim) and because the chatlog was recorded on what it and the avatar talking to it said, had endless amusement at reading back the logs seeing that people would spend 30mins just chatting and rping with the bot not realising that it wasn't a real avatar.

Would have loved to have been able to put animesh and pathfinding with the above things in place now to see how it would perform.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[RunawayBunny]

People talking about bots & traffic but.. From what I understand you can only own certain amount of avatars..

Restrictions

Currently, you can create:

• Up to five accounts per household.
• No more than two accounts in a single 24-hour periods

Source: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alt_Account_FAQ#Restrictions

Cost

Your first basic account is free, and so are a few alternate accounts. However, if you create an army of alts, Linden Lab may charge a small fee of US$9.95 for the creation of each additional basic account

How you are going to make your interactive "bot" SIM with 4 avatar? (Including your own avatar + BOT) You have to rent multiple servers with different IP or you have to pay US$10 for each avatar.

Its far more expensive any existing traffic game (some of them overpriced but not all of them) unless you are ignoring those rules...

Edited March 4, 2021 by RunawayBunny
Misunderstand numbers..

[Drayke Newall]

41 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

People talking about bots & traffic but.. From what I understand you can only own certain amount of avatars..

Restrictions

Currently, you can create:

• Up to five accounts per household.
• No more than two accounts in a single 24-hour periods

Source: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alt_Account_FAQ#Restrictions

Cost

Your first basic account is free, and so are a few alternate accounts. However, if you create an army of alts, Linden Lab may charge a small fee of US$9.95 for the creation of each additional basic account

How you are going to make your interactive "bot" SIM with 4 avatar? (Including you own avatar + BOT) You have to rent multiple servers with different IP or you have to pay 10 USD for each avatar.

Its far more expensive any existing traffic game (some of them overpriced but not all of them) unless you are ignoring those rules...

I don't recall any instance where LL have actually enforced the cost or limit rule (may have but cant recall any). Additionally, it would be impossible to track how many a person creates within a household due to dynamic ip's. A person could simply grab a new ip through CMD in windows for each account creation, not to mention an IP address doesnt provide what household you are in and is arbitrary in location. As far as I have always understood, the 5 per limit was based on email account, but I could be wrong on that. I do know many people who have far more accounts than 5 and do not pay extra.

A bot also needs to be registered as a scripted agent on the account page of its account to avoid what is mentioned in this thread from happening (affecting search/traffic rankings). The downside is also sim avatar limits whereby a bot takes up an avatar spot.

That all said, there is a reason why for years people wanted the ability to create NPC's and why many rejoiced at animesh for this despite it being limited.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Drayke Newall