Is BOTs traffic gaming SERIOUSLY breaking Second Life search?

[RunawayBunny]

13 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

person could simply grab a new ip through CMD in windows for each account creation, not to mention an IP address doesnt provide what household you are in and is arbitrary in location.

You cant grab a new IP from command line. You need to reset your modem assuming you have dynamic IP.. but it wont change anything:

Your IP when you login in SL registered and if all of your avatars logins from same IP they will show up in a simple database query.

Your only method might be different proxy for each avatar which far more complicated and causes security risk.

[Qie Niangao]

54 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

Currently, you can create:

• Up to five accounts per household.

[...]

Huh! Interesting; this must be relatively new. There used to be a restriction of only five accounts per email address. That may have been ages ago, but still at some point somebody went to the trouble of changing that. I wonder why.

I know everybody -- except me -- loves NPCs. Maybe it's because I've never been a gamer (at all). Some have suggested my "uncanny valley" threshold is too easily tripped. Whatever it is, I get the same squick to automated "characters" as I do to RL customer support chatbots. Especially voice bots, OMG! On the other hand, I seem to have no trouble inflicting Google call screening on anybody who dares to actually voice call me, but honestly, anybody using voice should just send me a fax instead: either way they'll be lucky if I notice it on the way to the OBSOLETE bin.

Anyway, I know this is idiosyncratic. Y'all chat up your animesh bots, or your AFK "companions", whatever floats your boat. Just be aware that some of us will turn tail and run!

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, RunawayBunny said:

You cant grab a new IP from command line. You need to reset your modem assuming you have dynamic IP.. but it wont change anything:

You are right apologies I was thinking of private ip address. Still the point stands you can change it as a work around and anyway the ruling has never been enforced.

1 hour ago, RunawayBunny said:

Your IP when you login in SL registered and if all of your avatars logins from same IP they will show up in a simple database query.

Thinking LL would go to that effort of tracing ip's of thousands of paying accounts and caring. 😄

Point is that LL have never worried about multiple alts anyway. If they were, then explain how people on these very forums have well over 5 alts all with premium which is against the rules in the wiki.

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Huh! Interesting; this must be relatively new. There used to be a restriction of only five accounts per email address. That may have been ages ago, but still at some point somebody went to the trouble of changing that. I wonder why.

It has always stated per household in the wiki since it was created, but has always been interpreted as per email account due to infeasibility of enforcing the per household system. Think this was confirmed eons ago by a Linden.

[Phil Deakins]

2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

I don't recall any instance where LL have actually enforced the cost or limit rule (may have but cant recall any). Additionally, it would be impossible to track how many a person creates within a household due to dynamic ip's. A person could simply grab a new ip through CMD in windows for each account creation, not to mention an IP address doesnt provide what household you are in and is arbitrary in location. As far as I have always understood, the 5 per limit was based on email account, but I could be wrong on that. I do know many people who have far more accounts than 5 and do not pay extra.

A bot also needs to be registered as a scripted agent on the account page of its account to avoid what is mentioned in this thread from happening (affecting search/traffic rankings).

Correction: A bot does not need to be registered as a scripted agent. It only needs to be registered if it is used on land that is set to show in search.

I had to pay $9.95 for an alt. But that was back when all alts were charged for. That changed so that, in practise, it is 5 per email address, even though LL says per household. It isn't something that LL is particularly interested in as long as things go smoothly. They have no incentive to prevent the number of accounts from increasing. It's to their benefit that they do, so they are not going to come down hard and fast on any infringements of the quoted statement, unless there is a problem.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[RunawayBunny]

 

12 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It isn't something that LL is particularly interested in as long as things go smoothly.

If its true they really need update their TOS because its not very friendly statement especially in a shared university internet environment where all players uses same IP.

We will charge you $10 after 5 avatar most likely cause confusion and possibly account cancellation.

Some people take TOS seriously even if company does not. They read agreement and might disagree with agreement chose to not play.

Edited March 4, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[Qie Niangao]

44 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

It has always stated per household in the wiki since it was created, but has always been interpreted as per email account due to infeasibility of enforcing the per household system. Think this was confirmed eons ago by a Linden.

Maybe. This wiki page only goes back to 2009. But I guess it's possible my memory is of how it was interpreted, as opposed to an earlier statement of policy.

[Phil Deakins]

On the topic of bots used as NPCs, at one time I had a castle with several NPCs in it. One would move around the ramparts, keeping a look out. Another was based in the guardroom and would get up and do a tour of the castle and its grounds from time to time. A guard would do a circuit of the castle ramparts and the whole sim, and then get back to the castle and sit down for a rest, before doing it all again. The drawbridge would open and shut for him as needed. The forth one was a damsel in distress, who was locked in a tower room and waved a handkerchief out of the window hoping for rescue, preferably by a handsome prince. She was never rescued but she did get the occasional suitor trying to persuade her onto the sex bed that was in her prison room - unsuccessfully, I might add

Edited March 4, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Correction: A bot does not need to be registered as a scripted agent. It only needs to be registered if it is used on land that is set to show in search.

True but lets face it, most places that would use a bot/npc would be listed in search unless it is a house. I am sure it is also abused a lot by them not registering them. Cant imagine LL actually going around to places to ban the unregistered bots unless they are AR'd of which a person wouldn't know if they are registered or not. That said, I have no idea how the bot policy works now so maybe they do track registered and unregistered, though cant see how they would.

[Phil Deakins]

Yes, I agree that most places that use bots are probably set to show in search.

I'd guess that LL saying that they don't want us to report bots on 'search' land is because they don't want them removed if they can help it. The higher the concurrency, the better LL looks. It took them a VERY long time to finally bow to user-pressure and do something against traffic manipulation. It may also be the reason why they haven't made it possible for us to see whether or not an avatar is a registered scripted agent.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Solar Legion]

The language concerning multiple accounts has been that way for many years now - yes even the now altered wording.

It has yet to be enforced.

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 hours ago, RunawayBunny said:

  From what I understand you can only own certain amount of avatars..

Restrictions

Currently, you can create:

• Up to five accounts per household.
• No more than two accounts in a single 24-hour periods

Source: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alt_Account_FAQ#Restrictions

Cost

Your first basic account is free, and so are a few alternate accounts. However, if you create an army of alts, Linden Lab may charge a small fee of US$9.95 for the creation of each additional basic account

I bolded the applicable word -- regardless of "current" policy (whether accounts are limited by IP/email/whatever), it is still that LL MIGHT charge you.

Personally, I think they worded it that way in case you are creating additional accounts for things like traffic, griefing, etc..

I currently have just shy of 2 dozen accounts -- 4 of them are currently Premium, but I have had a total of 8 Premium at one time in the past (for tier donation to a land group).  Also, I definitely do have more than 5 using the same email address.

I know a number of people with more than 5 Premium alts that were created solely to own multiple Linden Homes.

I'm also friends with a guy that literally created an alt for every letter of the alphabet for lucky chairs.  That was back in the days when Lucky Chairs were much more common.  I don't think he uses them much anymore, but the accounts still exist and can be logged in.

[Phil Deakins]

11 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I'm also friends with a guy that literally created an alt for every letter of the alphabet for lucky chairs.  That was back in the days when Lucky Chairs were much more common.  I don't think he uses them much anymore, but the accounts still exist and can be logged in.

How did he operate that? He wouldn't have had them all logged in at the same time, so did he rely on letters not being snapped up while he logged in an avatar of the right letter?

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

How did he operate that? He wouldn't have had them all logged in at the same time, so did he rely on letters not being snapped up while he logged in an avatar of the right letter?

Yeah -- he mostly used it for places that didn't have a lot of traffic.  Especially if the place had something that he wanted, then he'd use the alts to force the cycling of the letters.

[Phil Deakins]

Good thinking on his part. I was imagining him shooting round all over looking for chairs that needed sitters, and I also thought that there isn't much for males in those things, but if he was selective, then it would have worked fine for him.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Luna Bliss]

8 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

As others have said, people do use Places search to find products, and there is a very compelling reason to do so - comparatively few stores take out classified ads because they cost a fair amount each week, and they are often in bidding battles for rankings. Remember when some classifieds reached as high as many thousands of L$ each week? I never used classifieds for my store because there was never any reason to, and I believe that most sellers don't use them either. Imo, your reasoning is a bit off on that. So 'pot' and 'kettle' are correct

Well I've been investigating some fishing areas. Some are crowded, some not, some very social while in others nobody speaks. There's even a fishing area where all those fishing are bots! lol
Most of these fishing areas appear to be on regions where a nature environment has been created for people to meet or participate in various activities, although some of them do contain small shops to rent. I haven't discovered very many major stores with fishing areas.
I do wonder if Search>>>Places even provides much of an advantage for 'meeting' types of regions (the advantage of being higher on a list), as I'd imagine most are searching for specific types of places and so the name would be more important (locations for sex, dancing, game activities, enjoying nature, etc.).

I'm getting ready to create a survey to discover how many use Places vs Classified in the legacy Search, btw (at least among my limited sample group).

But more to your point -- whether fishing tactics to increase traffic is the same as bots used to do the same -- I just can't agree, because the fishing areas have a benefit (something to do, a sense of community where people meet and chat) whereas the bots add nothing. I mean, I can agree that 'increasing traffic' is the same -- but that's not the only metric I'd use to judge if one thing is the same as another.

I appreciate though how you're not judgmental about increasing traffic and simply pointing out what you see as no difference between bots and fishing. I mean, if we go down this judgmental road are we going to fault those who have concerts on their land to increase traffic, or have dances and events to increase traffic (there's SO MANY WAYS for land owners to increase traffic). Although personally not a big advertising or commercial person myself I really can't fault them for advertising in legal ways. Fishing areas are simply more obvious in their attempt to provide traffic and exposure while other methods are more hidden.

I do get the feelings described by @Coffee Pancake -- that "thirst" is not attractive -- either in ourselves or in others. This can make one appear or feel desperate and greedy. I know when I've been more focused on marketing and attempting to "get more" I don't like the feeling. I prefer not to manipulate factors in order to acquire more money. However I do realize this is fun and even a thrill for some people (seeking money for money's sake) -- much like a game. I don't like the over-commercialization of the world for sure, but it could be idealistic to imagine a world without advertising, a world where the 'pure creators' could survive without participating in reality as it exists -- because if they don't participate to a degree they'll likely have to get a 9 to 5 and have no time to create.

[Silent Mistwalker]

"Up to 5 per household" was never going to fly anyway. IF SL had existed when I was growing up no one would be able to have an alt account since there were 5 people living in the house. We would have been punished just for being a family of 5. That has never sat too well with me.

LL only enforces the 5 per email rule (the way it used to be) when someone gets too stupid with it. Scripted agents are not considered regular accounts and don't count against the 5. Scripted agents don't show up as traffic, which is what people who are using animesh are supposed to be doing. Registering the scripted agents (animesh included!) takes them out of the traffic equation.

[Qie Niangao]

I guess there could be a couple different ways to use animesh for a "bot". It could be that an old-timey bot wears animesh, same as a regular logged-in user account. Usually I think of the other case, where there's no agent (no logged-in account) at all, just a hunk of free-standing animesh, possibly with a webservice-driven chat backend.

[Phil Deakins]

49 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But more to your point -- whether fishing tactics to increase traffic is the same as bots used to do the same -- I just can't agree, because the fishing areas have a benefit (something to do, a sense of community where people meet and chat) whereas the bots add nothing. I mean, I can agree that 'increasing traffic' is the same -- but that's not the only metric I'd use to judge if one thing is the same as another.

It's the purpose of them that's the same. Traffic-bots are normal accounts that are used specifically to increase traffic. They can be interesting/entertaining NPCs and still be traffic bots. The OP's fishing thing is sold specifically to increase traffic. That's what I mean by being the same. Both of them can be used for other things. I wrote in one post that he didn't advertise them with something like "Create a fun fishing community" (I forget the exact words). If he had, I wouldn't have written all the posts about it. He specifically advertises it to increase traffic. He sells it to serve the same purpose as traffic bots.

That's why I say that, in that respect (their purpose), a pot calling the kettle black is applicable.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Silent Mistwalker]

33 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I guess there could be a couple different ways to use animesh for a "bot". It could be that an old-timey bot wears animesh, same as a regular logged-in user account. Usually I think of the other case, where there's no agent (no logged-in account) at all, just a hunk of free-standing animesh, possibly with a webservice-driven chat backend.

Yep, old fashioned bots. That animesh bartender? Bot. That pig in the sty rootin around? Bot. Whether they have "physical" body or not they are bots because they all run off scripts. 

I keep hoping some smart scripter will come up with an SL version of the old AW Xelagot bots. You could do damn near everything with them including edit terrain and build. It will never happen though.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Huh! Interesting; this must be relatively new. There used to be a restriction of only five accounts per email address. That may have been ages ago, but still at some point somebody went to the trouble of changing that. I wonder why.

I know everybody -- except me -- loves NPCs. Maybe it's because I've never been a gamer (at all). Some have suggested my "uncanny valley" threshold is too easily tripped. Whatever it is, I get the same squick to automated "characters" as I do to RL customer support chatbots. Especially voice bots, OMG! On the other hand, I seem to have no trouble inflicting Google call screening on anybody who dares to actually voice call me, but honestly, anybody using voice should just send me a fax instead: either way they'll be lucky if I notice it on the way to the OBSOLETE bin.

Anyway, I know this is idiosyncratic. Y'all chat up your animesh bots, or your AFK "companions", whatever floats your boat. Just be aware that some of us will turn tail and run!

It would be great if there were clarification of this. I thought it was 5 avatars per payment form. Now, you could try to game the system by putting another account on another payment form with a different email address. But the Lindens can easily see through this not by their store of knowledge but by the IP address that logs on. In fact when you try to file a ticket on one of them, it reverts to your main often. I recently had a problem with a group that could only be fixed by its owner, my alt, who had been retired back in 2012 when they said you could only have 5, whether by email or payment form. And he failed to give me ownership perms which didn't seem like a problem until it did. After weeks I got it restored and I even asked the Linden, what does this mean, I have more than 5 now. Or do you mean five premium accounts. I think it doesn't matter if the extras are NOT premium. So I will have to figure out how to kill off one of them I guess unless this is clarified.

I think you don't need an account, much less a premium account, to make an NPC nowadays. There are great, cheap, low prim mannequins. You can put animesh animations in some of them if they are rigged. Even I can get it to do that, tho tbh I put "shake tree shadow" in to move one of them to do at least something because I couldn't get him to do like "Dancing Dad". I have no idea why. I don't need to know. Point is, with talk script, animesh, you can have NPCs without paying for an account.

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It would be great if there were clarification of this. I thought it was 5 avatars per payment form. Now, you could try to game the system by putting another account on another payment form with a different email address. But the Lindens can easily see through this not by their store of knowledge but by the IP address that logs on. In fact when you try to file a ticket on one of them, it reverts to your main often. I recently had a problem with a group that could only be fixed by its owner, my alt, who had been retired back in 2012 when they said you could only have 5, whether by email or payment form. And he failed to give me ownership perms which didn't seem like a problem until it did. After weeks I got it restored and I even asked the Linden, what does this mean, I have more than 5 now. Or do you mean five premium accounts. I think it doesn't matter if the extras are NOT premium. So I will have to figure out how to kill off one of them I guess unless this is clarified.

I currently have more than 5 avatars on one email account.

I have had, two or so years back, 8 concurrent Premium avatars, all with the same PayPal account for their payment info. 

Since I don't usually bother to remove payment info from my accounts when I downgrade them, I probably still have that same PayPal info on at least a dozen accounts..

 

[Prokofy Neva]

6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I currently have more than 5 avatars on one email account.

I have had, two or so years back, 8 concurrent Premium avatars, all with the same PayPal account for their payment info. 

Since I don't usually bother to remove payment info from my accounts when I downgrade them, I probably still have that same PayPal info on at least a dozen accounts..

 

I see. Well, again, I don't know what the policy is. Not more than five accounts, period? Not more than five premium? More than five premium is ok if they are not with Linden Houses? Any of these policies are reasonable, I guess. As I have complied with them before, I'm happy to do so again. I think like a lot of people, I'm not going to bother to fix all this unless I'm told to.

[LittleMe Jewell]

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Not more than five premium?

I personally think that if LL is going to enforce any rule about the number of accounts, they would be more lenient with Premiums because then they are at least getting direct money from the person.

These days, I think it mostly matters based on what the accounts are doing. I'd image they have less leniency with folks that are griefing others or not following the Traffic and/or scripted-agent policies.

[RunawayBunny]

Not sure how they are going to handle it but.. from a student perspective (shares same IP with many other students) you will probably not want to give your card information under current policy.

They need at least update their information regarding alternate avatars clarify if it is 5 avatar for every IP or email.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

They need at least update their information regarding alternate avatars clarify if it is 5 avatar for every IP or email.

It is neither of those currently - or at least, neither of those conditions are enforced.

 

3 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

Not sure how they are going to handle it but.. from a student perspective (shares same IP with many other students) you will probably not want to give your card information under current policy.

Not sure what the policy has to do with giving your credit card info.  LL will not automatically assume any payment info based on accounts having the same IP or email.  Payment info must always be manually entered by any account that needs it.