Is BOTs traffic gaming SERIOUSLY breaking Second Life search?

[Phil Deakins]

17 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I realize you are labouring under a deep assumption that you know, if not everything, everything about this topic.

Nope. But I DO know more than most, including you, about this topic, so don't make untrue statements about me, please. I'm posting about what I do know.

 

17 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You're belabouring the literal search-string words of me saying "code snippets in little boxes" the way I might say "little houses on the hillside made of ticky-tacky" but that is merely my way of saying *code*.

If you quote something, as though I wrote it, I will take it the same way that anyone would - that you think you are quoting me - and I'll reply accordingly. If that's not what you want, try writing it another way. E.g. I use single quotes when it's not an actual quotation. You just used another way -  *this way*. Clarity is usually very helpful.

As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry, but it's waaaay too long for me to bother even reading it. Apart from the first bits of the first 2 paragraphs, I have no idea what you wrote. Sorry.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

People put the home bases for these bot nests that aren't technically bots in Linden Homes, because it's always best to hide things in plain sight, as Sherlock Holmes knows, and even if you ask a Mole who all those slumped people are, they can't care because they are owners of Linden homes.

I'd like to understand why there are so many roving bots now. Like, an incredible number. Perhaps this is Linden-directed and they are like scouring all the "pages" of SL as Google does with everyone's pages. Or maybe people who knows something about another thing have decided to do this themselves. They are not scraping land scale information from what I can tell. I'm mainly concerned about them because so many tenants have complained and we eject and ban them but of course they can stay slumped on Linden water then.

 

We don't own Linden homes. Never have and never will because we can't afford premium. Linden homes don't have anything to do with it. 

Land bots have been illegal in SL for many years. AR them when you see them.

[Phil Deakins]

8 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

It's what the bot policy doesn't say that gives it away. lol

Just for the grins and giggles, we have several desktops and probably at least 4 laptops we could use, so doing a bit of rough math here, say 2 viewers per pc, we could have 18 avatars logged in at one time.

Hehe, you could yes - maybe. Remember that you'd need some very good bandwidth to run 18 viewers - even thin ones. Each avatar is perpetually receiving data from SL. It doesn't just sit dormant.

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Hehe, you could yes - maybe. Remember that you'd need some very good bandwidth to run 18 viewers - even thin ones. Each avatar is perpetually receiving data from SL. It doesn't just sit dormant.

 

Fios broad enough for you? 🤭 Just a few months ago we had them reduce the speed (and lower the bill) and we still have more bandwidth than we really need to run 18 avatars.

Now if I were to do that on my own grid on my pc... oh hell no! lol 

During the day, at minimum, there are at least 4, if not 5, pcs online. He works from home and has separate setup for work plus his everyday pc and his DJing pcs for SL. There's always a lot of traffic on our broadband. ☺️

Edited March 1, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker
the t is too close to the r

[Phil Deakins]

I had to look up what 'Fios' is. I don't know how fast it is - probably up to a Gb/sec, but, as you suggest, it's probably fast enough to run 18 viewers, especially thin ones. I doubt that most places in SL that would want the traffic won't be using broadband of similar speeds though - my best guess

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Silent Mistwalker]

33 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I had to look up what 'Fios' is. I don't know how fast it is - probably up to a Gb/sec, but, as you suggest, it's probably fast enough to run 18 viewers, especially thin ones. I doubt that most places in SL that would want the traffic won't be using broadband of similar speeds though - my best guess

 

Oh I'm not saying anyone is actually doing it. lol I'm just saying it can be done. 😉

[Prokofy Neva]

50 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Nope. But I DO know more than most, including you, about this topic, so don't make untrue statements about me, please. I'm posting about what I do know.

 

If you quote something, as though I wrote it, I will take it the same way that anyone would - that you think you are quoting me - and I'll reply accordingly. If that's not what you want, try writing it another way. E.g. I use single quotes when it's not an actual quotation. You just used another way -  *this way*. Clarity is usually very helpful.

As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry, but it's waaaay too long for me to bother even reading it. Apart from the first bits of the first 2 paragraphs, I have no idea what you wrote. Sorry.

I'm glad I can enable you to bask in a sense of superiority a while longer, Phil. You're not the only one who reads my posts addressed to you lol, you'd be surprised.

[Phil Deakins]

8 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I'm glad I can enable you to bask in a sense of superiority a while longer, Phil. You're not the only one who reads my posts addressed to you lol, you'd be surprised.

In this particular case, my knowledge is way superior to yours, and I do appreciate you enabling me to bask in that superiority for a little while

I would not only be surprised but I'd be positively astonished if anyone actually reads all of that super-long post of yours that was addressed to me. Perhaps it would tempt someone who wants an early night but isn't yet feeling sleepy lol.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Qie Niangao]

1. In case anybody else was grasping for the name of the search engine that replaced GSA, it was Apache's Lucene. As I recall, we were told directly by some Linden of that change. No idea if that's still what's used.
2. The scripted agent policy that was supposed to keep bots from inflating traffic was never very effective. It's certainly true that AFK humping hubs exploit a loophole, but it's not a significantly different loophole from fish hunting, gold digging, or other schemes that boost traffic for a chance to maybe be paid. It's like the old timey camping, with an element of chance added to make rare little payouts seem akin to winning the national lottery.
3. I think the brokenness of Search could be an opportunity to replace it with a solution that would benefit searchers, those wishing to be found, and charity. Let's have a favored non-profit run Search with rankings weighted heavily by size of donations given to the charity, straight-up pay to play. I mean, why benefit fish farmers or whatever traffic-boosting scams are popular at the moment, when the money could instead serve some noble purpose, and help searchers find merchants and venues who give generously to our charity?

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

It's what the bot policy doesn't say that gives it away. lol

Just for the grins and giggles, we have several desktops and probably at least 4 laptops we could use, so doing a bit of rough math here, say 2 viewers per pc, we could have 18 avatars logged in at one time.

I knew a guy years ago that used to do just that.  I know for a fact he'd have at least 10 regular avatars logged in at one venue and win all the prize money on the event board.  Not that hard to do for him either.  

[Paul Hexem]

34 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I knew a guy years ago that used to do just that.  I know for a fact he'd have at least 10 regular avatars logged in at one venue and win all the prize money on the event board.  Not that hard to do for him either.  

Just to add to that, and make it first party evidence instead of third party;

I can regularly log in numerous "real" avatars on decent graphics settings easily. Computer doesnt even struggle until 10 or more.

Using thin viewers, I could probably double it. I currently run a couple bot viewers full time in the background and usually forget they're there.

[Silent Mistwalker]

35 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I knew a guy years ago that used to do just that.  I know for a fact he'd have at least 10 regular avatars logged in at one venue and win all the prize money on the event board.  Not that hard to do for him either.  

Before LL ever tried to do anything about it, a lot of people were using alts to boost traffic numbers. I never did it myself (ok maybe one alt for adjusting poses etc but not specifically for traffic) and I didn't shop at stores that did. I don't understand that mindset. I want to know what my traffic numbers are, not some jumped up number that has no financial meaning. Luckily, there's an orb for that.

[Rowan Amore]

I've asked and mentioned this in another thread.  Let's say I'm a store owner and I'm looking to open a satellite store or pay for an ad board.  I find this place at the top of search with 50000 visitors.  Awesome, I think.  I go there and see a bunch of avatars up on a platform just standing there in their newbie avatars.  Now, being a fairly intelligent person, I'm not going to pay for anything at such a place.  Not going to rent your ad board or your vendor space.  So, what exactly does being at the top of search get you?  Nothing from me or any 1/2 way intelligent person.  So, in that respect, traffic numbers are irrelevant whether real or faked.

The same with anything else I'm searching for.  Bots aren't breaking search.   Search on the website and on the LL viewer is just broken, period.  As many have already mentioned, I never use traffic numbers to determine where I go.

The same goes for places with fishing.  I pop in and see that, I wouldn't pay for my product to be there.  Any product that claims to increase traffic is basically telling me.it's a place I will NOT go.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Phil Deakins]

12 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've asked and mentioned this in another thread.  Let's say I'm a store owner and I'm looking to open a satellite store or pay for an ad board.  I find this place at the top of search with 50000 visitors.  Awesome, I think.  I go there and see a bunch of avatars up on a platform just standing there in their newbie avatars.  Now, being a fairly intelligent person, I'm not going to pay for anything at such a place.  Not going to rent your ad board or your vendor space.  So, what exactly does being at the top of search get you?  Nothing from me or any 1/2 way intelligent person.  So, in that respect, traffic numbers are irrelevant whether real or faked.

For the purpose you described, large traffic numbers won't get you to be a customer. You wanted to buy traffic and the owner was trying to sell you fake traffic. But most circumstances were different to that.

Back when SL was the original SL (when there were stores all around) traffic got those stores everything. People going to the stores generally weren't bothered how the traffic came about, or even what is was. They just wanted to know if there's anything they fancy buying there. So the store owners used bots, and other methods, to get the store listings in front of people's eyes so that they could TP there. There are still stores left in SL, and it's still the same for them.

Clubs are another type of place where it's important to get the clubs' listings in front of people eyes, although there are other ways of doing it for clubs than bots.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

For the purpose you described, large traffic numbers won't get you to be a customer. You wanted to buy traffic and the owner was trying to sell you false traffic. But most circumstances were different to that.

Back when SL was the original SL (when there were stores all around) traffic got those stores everything. People going to the stores generally weren't bothered how the traffic came about, or even what is was. They just wanted to know if there's anything they fancy buying there. So the store owners used bots, and other methods, to get the store listings in front of people's eyes so that they could TP there. There are still stores left in SL, and it's still the same for them.

Clubs are another type of place where it's important to get the clubs' listings in front of people eyes, although there are other ways of doing it for clubs than bots.

 

Lots of clubs used bots for a long time. There wasn't any other way of driving traffic up. Until someone wrote a script that would provide you with even more than just a head count. There was one that would tell you the country/ies your traffic was coming from, the busiest times of day, busiest days of the week, etc. All information that comes in very useful when running a business.

Traffic wasn't the only thing SL started out with that should never have been on the public grid (imo). I can think of some others like the leaderboard, that turned into nothing more than popularity contests and heaven help you if you pissed off someone who was not only "popular" but owned a store... you get the picture. People were griefed over it, much as they are now but far worse.

[Rowan Amore]

Yes, I remember those days.  Still doesn't explain why  places today still pile avatars onto their region to get traffic when no one will.spend money there if no one is there.  I don't see stores doing it.  I see mostly clubs doing it and if people go, see no real people, they leave so again, what is the point?  Whoopie! You're #1....no one cares, no one spends a dime there, no one tells there friends to go.

[Coffee Pancake]

People fishing for L$ are more off putting than actual bots.

That said I wont spend time or L$ at any place with either. Makes everything scammy by association.

[Silent Mistwalker]

16 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, I remember those days.  Still doesn't explain why  places today still pile avatars onto their region to get traffic when no one will.spend money there if no one is there.  I don't see stores doing it.  I see mostly clubs doing it and if people go, see no real people, they leave so again, what is the point?  Whoopie! You're #1....no one cares, no one spends a dime there, no one tells there friends to go.

 

When you find out, please, tell me so we'll both know. 😆

[Wili Clip]

9 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

People fishing for L$ are more off putting than actual bots.

That said I wont spend time or L$ at any place with either. Makes everything scammy by association.

About 9 - 10 years ago the fishing game was initially designed as a traffic aid game and as a fun activity for people to do and earn some L$ that they spend into SL economy. For most people it is a fun game where they can advance in ranks (there are some similarities to WoW in the aspect of building / ranking up your characther) and make friends. With 10 years of upgrading, extending and perfecting it.. It has become much more than just a traffic game and for massive community of people it is a main part of SL tjat makes them stay in SL. Not all people have good jobs or businesses in RL to be able to support their shopping needs in SL.

Most players earn enough L$ to have a spending power. The players are the consumers. And they pay back to the lands, brands, business who support them. 

Today fishing game I created is not mainly used for increasing traffic. Some might do it for that reason or start it for that purpose but most are installing it in their land to invite and support the community that has grown into the largest or one of the few largest ones in SL (with 37 000+ members in group). 50 000 - 100 000 monthly visitors on our main website.

Rather for traffic I have noticed that people install a fishing game to increase and improve their SL brand image.

I do it for brand of my other business and creating a sheer example how well it works.

If you are good to the consumers of SL they are good to your business, brand. I think that a form of advertising where advertising money is instead given to to ad agencies (yes I have one) or paid for visual advertising is better to be spent in a way it is distributed among the people who are going to be buying your products. If advertising money instead goes to ad agency it will not find ways to other content creators.

In general I always saw emptiness in Second Life as off-putting.

SL is a multi purpose virtual world (3D) environment. Games are just 1 aspect of it. There are many. I don't think people who personally only like 1 aspect or use of virtual world should be saying that some other aspect they don't have personal interest in is bad.

I am an economist with understanding of markets, microeconomy and macroeconomy. I create the type of games that contribute to SL economy growth.

Now educated people who understand a thing or 2 about economic use my system to tap into a big community of people/fishers who have L$ to spend. If they will spend them for your business depends on what product or service you offer and if you are a good person that SL consumers want to support.

You have to give something in order to receive. My way of doing business is I give a lot of my time, support, friendship, knowledge and information to others and I try to help everyone.

The strongest business brands are established when people learn what values the brands stand for and people support the ones who they feel align well with their values. In my system we are all following interest to grow SL and help people enjoy it better with more L$ to spend.

My game is no longer just a traffic game for years. It is a game that builds and supports communities in SL.

If it was based solely on ability to generate traffic than as LL decreased significance of traffic in search it should by that logic not exist anymore. But it has only been growing bigger and stronger because of reasons I shared above.

A lot of people have copied my systems and they are like my shadows - they follow my every step and try to hurt my business or badmouth me through their alts wherever possible. But there is 1 thing they are not aware of. If you base your product copying someone else you are forever going to stay a follower - just a shadow and your business brand will always stay tainted with the dirt. Your brand is always going to make people feel uncomfortable because generally people want to use, support and reward genuine inovators and original creators.

I don't understand how someone can have self respect by copying reverse engineering systems of someone else. But its known in industry and those who do it are forever followers and their brand promotes weakness and some sort of immorality.

So take care about what you do. If you are doing something wrong... it will come back at you like karma.

[Wili Clip]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

wont spend time or L$ at any place with either. Makes everything scammy by association.

You may not. But 10000s of people who earn L$ that they otherwise wouldn't will. 

By law of the numbers your personal vendetta and your personal choices have an insignificant impact on general economy. 

As much harsh as that sounds I also don't have anything against you and wish you all well. Everyone has right to have and state their opinion. \O.. O/

Edited March 2, 2021 by Wili Clip

[Qie Niangao]

28 minutes ago, Wili Clip said:

My game is no longer just a traffic game for years. It is a game that builds and supports communities in SL.

Such philanthropy. No wonder "traffic" is only mentioned parenthetically in the fine print. Like this:

and this:

A merchant would scarcely notice "traffic" at all, so eager to shell out L$15K to boost their brand image and benefit the community.

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

 

 

Rather for traffic I have noticed that people install a fishing game to increase and improve their SL brand image.

 

I certainly can't speak for how others see it but I'd actually think less of a business that felt it necessary to use any system like this to try and increase brand image.

 

[Wili Clip]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Such philanthropy. No wonder "traffic" is only mentioned parenthetically in the fine print. Like this:

 

and this:

 

A merchant would scarcely notice "traffic" at all, so eager to shell out L$15K to boost their brand image and benefit the community.

As I wrote in my comment:

About 9 - 10 years ago the fishing game was initially designed as a traffic aid game and as a fun activity for people to do and earn some L$ that they spend into SL economy. But through the years it has grown into so much more and started having community building effect. I was surprised myself when I saw that was happening and I welcome it.

I don't want this forum topic to take direction into discussing my products. That was not my intention for posting. In some cases I feel compelled to reply to misconceptions and then it might appear like I am promoting. I'd rather see that the topic stays within its title.

Is BOTs traffic gaming SERIOUSLY breaking Second Life search?

 

Why are you posting pictures of products from my games into forum comments? Such advertising in SL forums is not allowed even if you're doing it with purpose to try to portray someones product in a negative light (tactic of negative advertising or a product defamation attempt).

Definition of product defamation:
A statement is defamatory if is harmful to the trading reputation of the company. An attack on the products or services of a company is only defamatory if it attacks the integrity, competence or other reputational value of the business. It is the overall effect of the statement that matters.

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Wili Clip

[Silent Mistwalker]

Well. One thing is for sure. I'll never be able to afford 15kLs in one lump sum. So much for making things affordable. 

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I certainly can't speak for how others see it but I'd actually think less of a business that felt it necessary to use any system like this to try and increase brand image.

Is that because you view it as manipulative, or do you have other reasons?