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21 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Someone once called me a "choosy choice feminist". Not sure I want to know what the alternative is.

I'm sure you've been called much worse.

I could compile a small but still impressive list of nasty adjectives that have been employed with the word "feminist" to apply to me. Disappointingly, because it's so unimaginative, the most common relies solely upon alliteration, because it also begins with "f."

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm sure you've been called much worse.

I could compile a small but still impressive list of nasty adjectives that have been employed with the word "feminist" to apply to me. Disappointingly, because it's so unimaginative, the most common relies solely upon alliteration, because is also begins with "f."

Oh, obviously. 

I generally stay off Twitter, but some time ago something glorious happened there. Some ranting halfwit put a call out saying that he wanted to "punch a feminist". Cue a huge number of male body builders, weight lifters and expert martial artists posting photographs of themselves, tagging him and inviting him to come over and do it.

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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58 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

EDIT:  Yes, it's her name.  Here is the discourse of one of the threads I remember.   Jordan was the first to reply.  She may have been new to this section of the forums. 

   Honestly, I very much doubt Jordan was putting any gender perspective on that. To say that it was 'a vicious man attacking a poor woman' is an awful exaggeration of a common scenario of two random people on the Internet disagreeing with each other.

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52 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, you're right . . . and I also didn't explain myself very well. What I was trying to get at, I guess, is that the attitude towards a certain type of white woman -- privileged, self-entitled, class-and race- conscious -- that is embodied in the stereotypical "Karen" might be, in part, an unconscious articulation more generally of the sense that black women must have of having been "left behind" by feminism. If that's true (and I may be overthinking it), it is definitely not helpful, however understandable it might be.

To me, the "Karen" meme sort of exemplifies what a friend of mine used to call "Fun Feminism," as exhibited by women who were militantly happy to use and defend the rights and privileges that Second Wave Feminism had won for them, but rather uninterested in working to extend those to women of colour and others who had not benefited from the movement. Frankly, I find such women annoying as hell also, although I wouldn't use a term like this to identify them for the reasons you yourself have already suggested.

/me waves tiny furry paw and says, "I'm voting for otherthinking it." :)

But let me join you in overthinking land, my home away from home. (Or is it, let me think about that, the psychological and philosophical implaca... Oooooh! Laser pointer dot!)

I think the whole Karen, Becky, Sharon, Chad... meme along with OKBoomer and others are just the "new" way to shut all sorts of people down. The Karen, Becky, et al do have a race bit to them, and a certain age (I think Karens are like 40+?). I don't think I've ever seen an OKBoomer leveled at an old black dude? In the age of smartphone and the age of texting, they are all easy ways to shut down a conversation, dismiss a person and appear "witty" and part of the cool kids at the same time. Some people remember rebeling and to do so they wore jeans, and then everyone wore jeans, and jeans were still cool except not as originally. I doubt a lot of people using those slams overthink it, and it just becomes part of the lexicon... not that it makes it good. I honestly think it is a horrid trend, and that it pushes people apart, yada yada, but then, if I had a porch I'd be sitting on it yelling for kids to get off my lawn and that started when I was in my late 20s (actually did that :) ). 

I really don't see the whole black women being left behind by feminism part to the Karen and Becky and... And yes, I do know about that schism.  A Karen isn't about feminism (to me). It is a caricature of a middle-aged, middle-class white woman who blunders about demanding her god given right to be entitled, often at the expense of others. We've all met or at least seen them. They drive minivans and can't park.

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1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm sure you've been called much worse.

I could compile a small but still impressive list of nasty adjectives that have been employed with the word "feminist" to apply to me. Disappointingly, because it's so unimaginative, the most common relies solely upon alliteration, because it also begins with "f."

You've been called a fun feline feminist? Fantastic!

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As it happens I signed onto my favorite browser, and I am sure what I do and say online is always tracked because this came up, or it was just completely random because more people are using the derogatory term.

 

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-karen-karens-explain?utm_source=pocket-newtab

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1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   Honestly, I very much doubt Jordan was putting any gender perspective on that. To say that it was 'a vicious man attacking a poor woman' is an awful exaggeration of a common scenario of two random people on the Internet disagreeing with each other.

No, I never said it was gender stuff.  I said she was viciously attacked in another thread by a man who isn't posting in this thread.  I said she posted a joke and he lit into her.  It was not the only time Jordan was met with "stuff" when she did nothing.  Here is one of his replies to her harmless joke.  You have to read through the thread a bit to see what was said back and forth.  I posted the link to the thread again at the bottom of my post.  I thought it was vicious.  She does also say in the thread it was the first time she visited this part of the forums.  

Anonymousrailwaybingo said:  (This was mostly directed at Jordan because of her posting a joke at the beginning of the thread.)

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Some people don't seem to know the difference between a chat full of impulsive brain farts and a discussion forum.

I thought this was a discussion forum.

It seems I better not come here and try to discuss anything. This place is dominated by bunch of narrow minded trolls - just like every other place on the internet. 

I have a right to my opinion. I think SL was better and easier to use in 2012.

And my opinion is the truth for me.

It seems only one truth is allowed here and it's been run by loud mouth trolls. 

My first response has nothing to do with me having no sense of humor. I'm just tired of having immediate attacks of stupid comments as soon as I post something on a forum. If I post something that I put my mind and heart into, it's not an invitation to stupid one liners that have almost nothing to do with the topic. 

I guess the people here value long discussion threads with just short stupid comments that are supposed to be silly and hardly even focus on the topic, but I'd rather have real discussions for once. 

So go a head - bully me all you want, tell me I don't have a sense of humor and say that I haven't put any effort in getting to know SL. You seem to know all about me. 

THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME FEEL SO GOD DAMN WELCOMED BACK TO SL.

I revisited SL to find true connections, but unfortunately the whole thing (if this forum reflects SL) seems to be run & dominated by trolls that think every spit that comes out of their mouths is pure gold.

News flash to all you arrogant people who think they are so funny: The whole world isn't your stand up stage as you wrongly assume. Sometimes you can just shut up and let the other people talk about the matter in hand. 

 

 

Edited by FairreLilette
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1 hour ago, Tarina Sewell said:

As it happens I signed onto my favorite browser, and I am sure what I do and say online is always tracked because this came up, or it was just completely random because more people are using the derogatory term.

 

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-karen-karens-explain?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Well, Tarina...your article made me laugh.   So, I'm like, ok...this is about speaking to a manager?

“I spend a lot of time on Twitter, so I find it rather annoying,” says Karen Geier, a writer and podcaster from Toronto. “Anything you say, people can be like, ‘OK, well, whatever, KAREN’ – but that’s not even how the meme is supposed to be used. It’s supposed to be about people who want to speak to the manager.”

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6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Second Wave Feminism tended to benefit mostly middle-class white women, while abandoning the black women who were, early on in the movement anyway, absolutely vital allies. My point being that these "Karens" represent precisely the kind of woman who did benefit from the gains of the Women's Lib movement, and who also demonstrate a lack of empathy for those who did not.

They gatekeep womanhood in much the way white people gatekept personhood from PoC, and still do. They don't represent 'Women' as a whole, just the kind they approve of.

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6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Calling someone a "Karen" (or a "TERF," etc.) doesn't enable conversation: it dismissively shuts it down.

This the "should we tolerate the intolerant?" question. Julia Serano wrote about it in 2017 so might be interesting seeing a 'then' perspective compared to what's happening now with more people saying "enough is enough".

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32 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

This the "should we tolerate the intolerant?" question. Julia Serano wrote about it in 2017 so might be interesting seeing a 'then' perspective compared to what's happening now with more people saying "enough is enough".

the funny thing is most intolerant dont really care if you tolerate them or not. they will continue doing what they do because they can and no one will stop or change them because of some riots or protests.

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1 hour ago, LexxiXhan said:

This the "should we tolerate the intolerant?" question. Julia Serano wrote about it in 2017 so might be interesting seeing a 'then' perspective compared to what's happening now with more people saying "enough is enough".

I don't know if it's really about intolerance as her ex-husband was mad she received most of 'everything' after a divorce.  Well, that happens for almost all women of every skin tone in a divorce. 

Plus, even Black women ask to speak to a manager.  I see it all the time and always have but I live in a melting pot...people of every skin tone live here and around me my whole life.  Woman of all colors ask to speak to the manager here.  Odd this Karen thing.  No two answers about it are the same.  

And, how do I know this, the place I mostly shopped for fifteen years or so, the women's restroom is right by the Manager's Station.  Happens ALL THE TIME speaking to a manger.  

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10 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I don't know if it's really about intolerance as her ex-husband was mad she received most of 'everything' after a divorce.  Well, that happens for almost all women of every skin tone in a divorce. 

Plus, even Black women ask to speak to a manager.  I see it all the time and always have but I live in a melting pot...people of every skin tone live here and around me my whole life.  Woman of all colors ask to speak to the manager here.  Odd this Karen thing.  No two answers about it are the same.  

And, how do I know this, the place I mostly shopped for fifteen years or so, the women's restroom is right by the Manager's Station.  Happens ALL THE TIME speaking to a manger.  

Karen

when in doubt ask urbandictionary.com

Edited by Drakonadrgora Darkfold
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14 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

Karen

when in doubt ask urbandictionary.com

LOL!  That describes a lot of women of any skin tone in Los Angeles, Blacks too, Asians too, Albino too.   Some of you have never seen a Black women ask for a manager?   That's absolutely erroneous thinking and absolutely not true.   So, then "Karen" is more like the soccer Mom.  Okay, there are Black soccer Mom's in Los Angeles too. 

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Just now, FairreLilette said:

LOL!  That describes a lot of women of any skin tone in Los Angeles, Blacks too, Asians too, Albino too.  

Yep.. which is why its a stupid meme really. Its just about a woman who doesn't take things laying down and expects to be treated with respect. Something most narcissistic or misogynistic men cannot handle.

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3 hours ago, LexxiXhan said:

This the "should we tolerate the intolerant?" question. Julia Serano wrote about it in 2017 so might be interesting seeing a 'then' perspective compared to what's happening now with more people saying "enough is enough".

I don't think, personally, that this is about tolerance, or even civility. It's about, a) dealing effectively with toxic ideas, and b) owning up to, and addressing, one's own mistakes.

With regard to the first, I'll use an example here. There's a person on this forum, at the moment, who is responding to some of my posts by calling me an "SJW." That's mostly all he's doing, just throwing what he sees as an insult at me. I think it's supposed to be utterly devastating or something, but of course . . . it's not. He's not challenged my ideas or disproved my argument. He's not making any real point at all; all he's doing is slapping a big label on me, like caution tape, to warn those who already dislike "SJW"s that they're going to dislike me. My points, my ideas, remain intact, and he hasn't "convinced" anyone of anything. Only those who are already likely to dismiss me as an "SJW" are going to be very impressed by it.

It's the same with a term like "TERF." The bigotry of someone who identifies as a anti-trans feminist isn't challenged, yet alone toppled, when all I do is dismissively insult them with that tag. At best, it attaches a big red flag to them that says "Scylla disagrees with and dislikes these people." No one is persuaded, no faulty premises are demolished. At best, all I've done is demarcated the battle lines. But the battle that ensues is mostly about name-calling.

If we want to really eradicate the kind of bigotry represented by anti-trans feminists, we have to demolish their ideas. And that means first identifying and acknowledging, rather than burying them under a reductive and simplistic insult.

As for my second point, it's maybe a bit more nuanced, and perhaps less important. The ideas and suppositions that fuel trans-exclusionary radical feminism didn't spring out of nowhere: they were generated from within feminism itself. Feminists, for the health of our movement, need to own them, address them, and excise them as a surgeon removes a cancer because they are within the body of the movement itself. And that means first acknowledging their place within our history.

Let me use the example of Germaine Greer. Dismissing Greer as someone who is "not a feminist," not "one of us" by means of a derogatory label that sets her to one side, outside of the movement, is a palpable absurdity: the woman was absolutely central to the development of feminism in 70s and 80s. If she's not a "feminist," no one is. And suggesting that her ideas are simply too absurd to be addressed is equally ridiculous: whatever else Greer may be, she's emphatically not a stupid woman. These are the things that make her dangerous, and the reasons why we need to take her and her ideas seriously enough to properly refute them. Shoving them into a box labelled "TERF" doesn't do that, and that's not good for feminism, or for trans people.

I honestly don't believe that one makes real change by simply shunting old and faulty bigotries to the side. They need to be engaged, and they need to be repudiated, properly, in the open where everyone can be witness to their hollowness.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, but I'm here now and shall speak for myself.

My definition of "Karen" comes from the reddit-verse where it is used to describe women of a certain age with a certain hairstyle who believe themselves entitled to a certain way of life and that everything revolves around themselves and their "perfect angel crotch-goblins".  They do not accept the word "no" and are known for asking to speak to the manager.  I believe Karens come in all ages, sizes, colours and ethnicities, so I do not accept the definition of it being the N-word for white women.  https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/karen/ This is where I get my Karen information from.

Now my reply about being called a troll and a Karen comes from two different threads, months apart. 

The troll comment had me shutting down the forums for several weeks as it (rather stupidly) did upset me when all I did was make a harmless and silly reply to a bit of a serious topic trying to bring a smile to a serious thread.  It had taken me months to get the courage to start replying more than sporadically here as I was feeling lonely and was trying to reach out and maybe make some friends.  Instead I retreated back into my shell and shutdown the forums for a bit.

The Karen meme may not have been aimed specifically at me, but as I was one of the only ones taking the opposing viewpoint on a certain touchy topic, I took it as such and was highly offended by it for several reason.  The first being that it was the lowest form of debate - resorting to name calling when you cannot handle a differing opinion seems to be the way of the internet.  Secondly poster of the meme does not know me, does not know what kind of person I am, so to call me that was offensive.  I had a valid opinion.  It may not have been a popular one, but as I said in my last post on that thread, maybe it would give other readers of the thread something to think about.  I have not been back to that thread since my last post despite the huge numbers of notifications I received about it.  I prefer to keep what little courage I have about posting here intact and not let bad responses get to me again.   

And yes, for the record I am an extremely nice person, rather opinionated and hell on wheels if you get on my bad side, but I don't go out of my way to be mean or abusive to someone just cos I have the safety of internet anonymity.  I have learnt over the years to pick my fights, go for the mountains not the molehills, and that it is usually better to stay behind the walls and not let people in.  It's okay to stand around on my skypad for hours and talk to no-one.

 

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If someone post where the title start with a question: "Do you"... or similar, I could reply with only yes or no.

But instead, I explain why I do or do not, so it is no need for "Why do you?" questions. Then I consider myself done with it. I do not read or reply in the thread again. What is the point of writing more versions of the same reply? I already know:

My opinion will not change.

I will not change others opinion.

I think it is pointless to engage in a tired old dance where posts go back and forth, and get more and more heated.

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2 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, but I'm here now and shall speak for myself.

My definition of "Karen" comes from the reddit-verse where it is used to describe women of a certain age with a certain hairstyle who believe themselves entitled to a certain way of life and that everything revolves around themselves and their "perfect angel crotch-goblins".  They do not accept the word "no" and are known for asking to speak to the manager.  I believe Karens come in all ages, sizes, colours and ethnicities, so I do not accept the definition of it being the N-word for white women.  https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/karen/ This is where I get my Karen information from.

Now my reply about being called a troll and a Karen comes from two different threads, months apart. 

The troll comment had me shutting down the forums for several weeks as it (rather stupidly) did upset me when all I did was make a harmless and silly reply to a bit of a serious topic trying to bring a smile to a serious thread.  It had taken me months to get the courage to start replying more than sporadically here as I was feeling lonely and was trying to reach out and maybe make some friends.  Instead I retreated back into my shell and shutdown the forums for a bit.

The Karen meme may not have been aimed specifically at me, but as I was one of the only ones taking the opposing viewpoint on a certain touchy topic, I took it as such and was highly offended by it for several reason.  The first being that it was the lowest form of debate - resorting to name calling when you cannot handle a differing opinion seems to be the way of the internet.  Secondly poster of the meme does not know me, does not know what kind of person I am, so to call me that was offensive.  I had a valid opinion.  It may not have been a popular one, but as I said in my last post on that thread, maybe it would give other readers of the thread something to think about.  I have not been back to that thread since my last post despite the huge numbers of notifications I received about it.  I prefer to keep what little courage I have about posting here intact and not let bad responses get to me again.   

And yes, for the record I am an extremely nice person, rather opinionated and hell on wheels if you get on my bad side, but I don't go out of my way to be mean or abusive to someone just cos I have the safety of internet anonymity.  I have learnt over the years to pick my fights, go for the mountains not the molehills, and that it is usually better to stay behind the walls and not let people in.  It's okay to stand around on my skypad for hours and talk to no-one.

 

A lot of people like to toss the word Troll around here in the forums as if its some insult that will magically crush said troll into running away from the forums. Or that using said insult will magically make them change their ways. You learn to ignore it and their opinion over time and stop caring about any validation for your opinion from said people. Which totally takes the thunder out of their clouds and turns their lighting into just a flickering light bulb. Which they cannot handle or deal with.

I am often controversial myself and certain people on these forums cannot tolerate it. It just goes to show how much of a 'Karen' they really are.

 

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12 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No doubt important and well reasoned stuff that I'm not able to wrap my head around yet (it is still, just barely, morning).

and

TERF

For those of us not immediately fluent in all things feminist, even though it can be gleaned from the context, I had to Google. TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

I don't read as much as I once did (that is hopefully going to change soon) but I read stuffs, so I'm not totally out of the loop. Feminism to me, for decades has been mostly: Leave me alone to be who I want to be, and the how, when, where and why of it. Stop judging and stop telling me what is appropriate for me. Get out of my head. Get out of my body (unless you're really cute and I invite you there). Treat me fairly and equally, which includes financial, social, language, yada. Don't be a putz (let's see if that gets through), yay Yiddish? I will do the same for you, without you asking. Laws and governments and society should work to the same ends to not be collective putzes. And by "you" I mean everyone, of any gender (color, ethnicity, sports team fanatic...). /me shrugs  Life isn't fair, by a long shot, be we don't need to make things more difficult. But we do. I think many of "us" shy away from the ism because of all of the schisms. 

ETA: Not like anyone asked (or cares) about what I just wrote. Just sharing, cuz I'm a giver and I can. :)

And that is way too much thinking for now. Probably the whole day. Possibly the week.

Edited by Gatogateau
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