Tilia takes over

[Fionalein]

2 minutes ago, ananoelle said:

 No more L$300 per month instead we get a token or is this on top of the L$300?

Maybe this is meant to easen the transfer of in game currency between SANSAR and SL? It has been announced long ago... you know back when SANSAR was not yet released.

[Inara Pey]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

My biggest question at this point is if Tilia is a wholly owned subsidiary of Linden Lab, why do we need to resubmit our financial information? They should have all this on file. I could understand the need if it were a separate contractor doing the work, but it's just Linden Lab by another name isn't it? Or am I reading the info wrong?

State / federal  laws on data protection? Might be a wholly-owned subsidiary, but Tilia has always existed (since 2014) as a separate legal and business entity. Ergo, there may be (probably are?) Chinese walls on what data can be transferred btween Linden Research (Linden Lab) and Tilia Inc. 

[Tokeya Tank]

40 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

Where did you see anything that said this?

They stated that we won't need to create a new username and password, username I can get, but a password should be salted and hashed and ONLY work for the site that you signed up for it with, since they can't just transfer over the salted and hashed password it stands to reason that to create an entirely new account using my original username and password they would have to have access to my password in plain text. 

[Bradford Mint]

16 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Btw. Tilea needs seperate EU servers for EU customer data to remain GDPR compliant, have fun solving the constraints of international business, LL

 

Not the case at all.

Edit: Fionalein, adding a laugh reaction doesn't make you any more correct. Data sovereignty and data handling are not the same thing.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Bradford Mint

[Bradford Mint]

1 minute ago, Tokeya Tank said:

They stated that we won't need to create a new username and password, username I can get, but a password should be salted and hashed and ONLY work for the site that you signed up for it with, since they can't just transfer over the salted and hashed password it stands to reason that to create an entirely new account using my original username and password they would have to have access to my password in plain text. 

Nope, as previously stated by someone else, LL could just act as an identity provider. There's no reason to transfer or create anything.

[Malin Sabra]

So many questions... so many unanswered..

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Tokeya Tank]

2 minutes ago, Bradford Mint said:

Nope, as previously stated by someone else, LL could just act as an identity provider. There's no reason to transfer or create anything.

If they are using the same login system and transferring a "logged in" token that that is slightly better.

[Beggar Mayo]

Mmmm....

I guess this measure in the actual terms and conditions will cause a massive emigration instead immigration as if were a reflection of the real politics in USA today.

I see some advantages and also disadvantages:

1. More control and certainty about avatars (accounts) numbers, kinds, and people behind them. Demographic information is important to support the SL economy just like in RL. Useful for merchants since SL give chance to get some profits for real.
2. Depuration of accounts. Some, I guess, bots or alts or basic, since are using SL in questionable ways maybe they have transformed themselves in a real trouble related sometimes to unfair play. In this topic, we must be careful about motivations behind people to have and use more than one avatar instead different appearance outfits.
3. The preceding paragraph points also to a topic not sufficiently discussed: the inheritance or transfer of accounts and avatars among those who have been friends, couples, relatives inside and / or outside of Second Life. Many of these accounts, obtained marginally (I have one), by mutual agreement in the exchange of basic information for the management and administration of the inherited account, with these new measures will put at risk many of them, because Linden Lab has not wanted, could or questioned the reasons that make such a transfer legitimate in certain concrete, real, viable circumstances. Those of us who have an account in similar conditions, unable to verify the original identity despite being managing it honestly and sensibly, enjoying the possibilities that SL gives, we will surely see them lost for our sadness. On the one hand it may be good, the reduction would affect what was said in the first paragraph. On the other hand, it contradicts the spirit that defines SL, philosophically, administratively, legally, and playfully, as a meta-world parallel to real life. It is as much as restricting the freedom of expression through the self-representation of oneself through so many appearances and avatars as is necessary or wanted, although putting certain limits on this would not necessarily be contrary to the proper coexistence between avatars. This issue, if well considered, could be manage in a more constructive way, even technically speaking giving chance to join or merge such accounts in one as if instances (I want remember SL that the SL viewer and third viewers allow log in with more than one instances or accounts within the limits of each one computers).
4. The current contractual terms and conditions seem more abusive, self-defensive than assertive, supportive and sustainable for both signatory parties. I firmly believe that the contract, before any of us sign it, would have to be subject to serious modifications that consider the different concerns of those who, for now here and now, are setting out our points of view, all of them very worthy, especially in the relative to credit and identification issues.
5. Whether or not Tilia is a subsidiary of Linden Lab, may or may not be relevant. The truth is that, if it is necessary for Linden Lab to delegate the issues of billing to a third party in discord, it could have relied on the same PayPal that many of us use and whose terms of contract have recently been modified in a less coercive manner, but providing greater certitude to the parties that participate in the exchange of goods and services. Yes, it is possible that the idea of managing Tokens goes hand in hand with what is already managed financially in the world with virtual currencies. The linden is already a virtual currency, of the former, even before the bitcoin and, although in recent times there was a bubble of speculation, we would not have to fear more of the account to an undeniable trend of the future, future in which, since we decided to be in this metaworld, we accepted to behave graciously as part of it.
6. Finally, I believe that, with this novelty, Linden Lab should also provide certainty about the delimitation of attributions of the third party in discord as well as the effects expected by us users in, for example, the limits on acquisition of lindens, in the transaction and exchange of coins. It is true that the linden-dollar relationship has been determinant to fix the value of the linden in both cryptocurrency or virtual currency, but in today's global economic conditions this has to be different. I have known of many cases of non-US users in which enjoying their SL is an ordeal for not being able to exchange real money for virtual, or for difficulties of inter-bank relations. Many Russians and Chinese and recently Venezuelans have experienced this very often and that Linden Lab is free of political and ideological inclinations. SL is a cultural mosaic whose only borders are the language, the boundaries between regions, the ages, the own skills and capabilities of each one, I hope Tilia does not become the punitive pretext to undermine Second Life with a view to reinforcing Sansar's project even with his head down in its takeoff or worst.

[Chic Aeon]

So how many people here remember the 

AUGUST 2013 TOS????????

[Cackle Amore]

51 minutes ago, Ginger Shostakovich said:

That actually makes sense, if that's the reason they're doing it. But then why not just say so? 

"Hey guys, the Government need us to do this so we set up a new company. Don't worry, nothing much is going to change for Normal User X. If you need to get money out of Second Life,  you already provided us with all the info we need, and if you let us know that you are OK with the new co handling this instead of ourselves, that'd be cool." 

See? Sorted. 

I mean, the blog post kind of does say that somewhat..

Quote

As registered money services businesses, Linden Lab and Tilia are required to comply with applicable U.S. laws and regulations. As part of our ongoing risk management process, we must obtain, verify, and record information about our customers for whom we offer financial-related services..

But ya, The Tilia thing isn't that new, it's been there for awhile now, you've probably seen this in the upper corner if you've ever processed credit or poked about your billing info 

Something in the financial world probably requiring it to be a bit more split off now.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Digit Gears

[Ginger Shostakovich]

2 minutes ago, Digit Gears said:

I mean, the blog post kind of does say that somewhat..

 

You're right - and I'm glad someone here understands Legalese...

[MrsSeren]

27 minutes ago, Sapphy Rotaru said:

I am not a US citizen, I do not drive & have no passport! We also do not have official photo ID in the UK so how on earth will I qualify?

I think passport/driving license would cover as official ID but could be wrong.

[Chic Aeon]

The email seems to be saying two different things.   

 Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account.

 

This sounds like EVERYONE.   However I alerted some content creator friends on my list and they had not received the email. They are no in the US (but some folks here seem to be outside the US also) but THEY DON'T CASH OUT.  

 

So perhaps that "you" in the email, really does MEAN that you only need to have an account if you turn lindens into cash.  Unfortunately IF that is the case and you have any tier payments that go to SL (happily I do not) it means that you would not be able to change lindens into US dollars to pay your tier; it would need to come from Paypal or credit card.   

 

Really not unusual that this is so convoluted. Attorneys never could agree on the legality of the August 2013 TOS changes. 

 

And do we have ANY idea what the cash out fees (for those that continue to cash out) will be? Especially since the Tilia TOS says they don't actually need to send us an email of changes? 

 

[Blush Bravin]

25 minutes ago, Inara Pey said:

State / federal  laws on data protection? Might be a wholly-owned subsidiary, but Tilia has always existed (since 2014) as a separate legal and business entity. Ergo, there may be (probably are?) Chinese walls on what data can be transferred btween Linden Research (Linden Lab) and Tilia Inc. 

I"ve given my info to LL on three separate occasions. Perhaps Tilia already has my info because of Sansar. *shrugs* It is what it is. I'm just tired of sending it to them.  

[Malin Sabra]

So really nothing is changing other than if you leave a USD balance on your account you might get charges after 12 months of inactivity and you have to agree to another TOS.

[katiaportugal Genesis]

1 hour ago, Gavin Hird said:

I could not see a single line about GDPR Compliance in the terms and privacy policies for this Tilia company?

Since we are asked to provide government issued identification if non US citizens, the company we give it to must be in GDPR compliance when handling EU citizens of which there are quite a few of in Secondlife. 

Well few years ago i had to  verify  my personal info ....  ..i am EU citizien ... wonder about that too ...  

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

6 minutes ago, Malin Sabra said:

So really nothing is changing other than if you leave a USD balance on your account you might get charges after 12 months of inactivity and you have to agree to another TOS.

Pretty much. And they will give notice before charging the inactive account, so that you can give it a poke and not get charged. 

[Chic Aeon]

Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account.  

 

OK this looks like the basic info (before of course you read the Tilia TOS which I doubt anyone actually READING it would agree to but we have been there before.  

• EVERYONE will have to agree to the Tilia privacy policy and TOS in order to access SL (basically like a new TOS for SL)
• Only those wishing to CASH OUT will be dealing with Tilia and giving the personal info. 

At least that is how I am reading it.  This is actually almost messier than the August 2013 TOS debacle.

Is this what others are getting from the announcement?

In order to stay in compliance with regulatory requirements, if you wish to process a credit, we will need certain personal information to verify your identity, including your name, address, date of birth, and social security number (or government-issued identification if you are not a U.S. Citizen).  You may be required to provide additional information to complete the transaction. Tilia will securely store this information so that you should only need to provide it once.

 

And do we have ANY idea what the cash out fees (for those that continue to cash out) will be? Especially since the Tilia TOS says they don't actually need to send us an email of changes?  Are they still going to be 5 percent? 

 

[Victorian Magic]

So to keep "playing" SL I need to accept Tilia  terms and  the account they set up for me and I will be charged an inactivity fee--when I've never cashed out but usually have cash from deposits to my account from credit cards.

Of course my account will be inactive I didn't ask for it. How much will THIS feature cost me on top of higher premium?

Is Grumpity filling her thermos, will she be answering comments 24/7 and then Friday we'll get the final scoop?

WHY wasn't this covered during SLB16?

NOW I know why the next Linden home motif is trailers.

[Beggar Mayo]

10 minutes ago, Malin Sabra said:

So really nothing is changing other than if you leave a USD balance on your account you might get charges after 12 months of inactivity and you have to agree to another TOS.

I already talked through live chat asking about and, yes, seem that the most manageable way to don't be affected would be left at 0$ the cash within the account with credit information and normally used to cash. I believe is a good way to put in movement the money along the year as period, instead to be sleeping.

[Inara Pey]

25 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

So how many people here remember the 

AUGUST 2013 TOS????????

Only too well. Only too well....

[Aime Takaaki]

Quote

If approved, the request will be subject to a fee (the “Process Credit Fee”) payable to Tilia, and the credit will be processed within approximately five (5) to ten (10) business days following the request. Some requests may take up to thirty (30) days to process. You may see this concept referred to as a “Process Credit” throughout the Website and other materials.

5 days??????? to 30 days? Please Linden Lab clarify this. Every process credit will take this long again now?

[Grumpity Linden]

Hi! We're putting together an FAQ (first asked questions!), which will go up on the blog shortly.  Please KEEP CALM AND ... oh just kidding.  Anyway, clarifications in response to your questions in this thread and elsewhere coming shortly. 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

4 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

OK this looks like the basic info (before of course you read the Tilia TOS which I doubt anyone actually READING it would agree to but we have been there before.  

• EVERYONE will have to agree to the Tilia privacy policy and TOS in order to access SL (basically like a new TOS for SL)
• Only those wishing to CASH OUT will be dealing with Tilia and giving the personal info. 

At least that is how I am reading it.  This is actually almost messier than the August 2013 TOS debacle.

Is this what others are getting from the announcement?
 

Yes, that's exactly how I read it. To me, it says that we will all have an account created for us, we all have to accept the TOS for the account, but we will only use the account (and have to provide ID info) if we process credit/cash out. 

Hopefully LL will confirm soon. 

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Please KEEP CALM AND ... oh just kidding.

Love that sense of humor!