Connect the Continents

[ChinRey]

38 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

is there anyone with some technical knowledge that could explain why the continents (and other private nearby sims) can't simply be moved?

I don't have all the techincal knowledge but part of the answer is in Lindal's reply to this question:

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/423558-moving-a-regiondo-the-landmarks-follow-the-region/

Home locations and listings in people's picks will not be updated to the sim's new location. That alone is quite a big issue when we're talking more than a thousand sims.

LL charges a hefty $150 for relocating a sim. It may be just greed of course but their land management has always been full of awkward and practical solutions. They seem to have done a lot to streamline their work processes recently but even so, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it really takes an hour or two of work to change the coordinates for a region.

I'm not sure if this applies to Second Life but on my own opensim grid I have one sandbox located at the extreme 65535,65535 coordinates and I've noticed teleporting there is noticeably slower than for the other sims. If - and I say if - it's the same in SL, it may not be a good idea to move a large number of sims away form the 0,0 point at Da Boom.

 

38 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for it to happen, but can't help but think that LL will baulk at this unless the financial outlay is minimal.

I think we all agree there. Linden Lab isn't likely to lift a finger to help. All we can hope for from them, is that they don't actually block the initiative. That being said, LL are grasping for straws trying to create more activities in SL these days. Last I heard, they were very proud about their plans to promote SL as an arena for DJ role players. If explorers are a niche market, I don't know what we should call that.

Edited June 13, 2018 by ChinRey

[Sammi Boa]

Ah last, others seem to be thinking about something I'd never been able to understand, why are not all the continents of Second Life been so isolated from each other for so long?

It would, in my ever so 'umble' opinion give Second Life a vital injection into its extensive body of  enthusiastic life, More  communication, more business and allowing others with similar interests to get together and enjoy Second Life that much fuller.

As an avid aviatrix in Second Life, it would give both myself and everyone else, a much much larger world to explore.  

I'd like to be part of this initiative and join this group.   

Warm regards to all from Sammi  

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Sammi Boa said:

why are all the continents of Second Life been so isolated from each other

it looks nicer on the map

Edited June 13, 2018 by Alwin Alcott

[IceCold Skytower]

5 hours ago, anna2358 said:

Ban lines are a pain, but you can detect them.  But not half as much as undetectable zero-delay TP-home security orbs.  Anyone who uses one of those (and lots of you do) deserves being sent to RL, with no hope of parole.

I have made an efficient banline detector, peek in my marketplace store for it... >_> I'm also working on finding effective methods of finding orbs, i already managed to reliably detect one of them. Happens to blabber on channel 2222. I hope along with this movement we can also progress on orb detection methods, then we can arm ourselves with the huds that detect them.

[Aethelwine]

Good question, Eowyn. Whilst the Fairchang move last year ( I think) was a small fraction of moving one of these sets of continents, but it must have been about 30 sims... so it establishes they can do bulk moves of linked regions. 

[sirhc DeSantis]

2 hours ago, IceCold Skytower said:

I have made an efficient banline detector, peek in my marketplace store for it... >_> I'm also working on finding effective methods of finding orbs, i already managed to reliably detect one of them. Happens to blabber on channel 2222. I hope along with this movement we can also progress on orb detection methods, then we can arm ourselves with the huds that detect them.

Fascinating. I run a ban line detector (well parcel actually as it predates the viewer thing) on the roads as I like the tarmac. I look forward to the coming arms race on ahem 'orbs'. And so nice to see an old school positive set channel too.

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

I look forward to the coming arms race on ahem 'orbs'.

That sentence surprised me at first because if I had a security orb for my home here, I certainly wouldn't mind if people detected it in advance. The way I see it, the purpose of a security orb is to keep people from entering and if they notice it before they even try to enter, that's even better.

But then I remembered this is about Second Life.

You may well be right.

[Aethelwine]

10 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Isn't Mare Secundus part of the Eastern waters? If you can get to there from ANWR, there's no problems at all. There is a protected waterway between Jasckle and Langdale. It's  a nice route with friendly natives too, decent looking low lag environment all the way and there hasn't been a water intercepting ban line or security orb in sight since LL agreed to remove the ones around their empty "nature preserve". The only problem I've ever had there was when somebody held a party so crowded it filled a sim to capacity but that isn't likely to happen every decade.

I don't think the inner waterways of Sansara will ever be suitable for large ships or boats. Even if there were no ban lines or blocked waters there, the channels between the islands would still be too narrow and the quantity and variety of builds on the land around will add too much background lag for heavy boats to handle. It's a very different sailign experience from the open waters of Blake Sea but it can be a very enjoyable if you use the right equipment - something small that handles sim crossings excpetionally well - and if you see the navigation challenges as part of the fun, not as a distraction. When I go there, I usually choose a Rubber Bunny hovercraft or katamaran for speed or one of Miccie Inkpen's lovely jolly boats if I want to take it slow and easy and watch the scene. Even my beloved Garda Tristar - not a particularly big or hevay boat at all - is a bit too much. It works but it's not ideal.

 

Both Grange and Carnworth currently have banlines on each side of the corner at Netherbeck. Even knowing about the banlines in advance, you are as likely to get snared in them as not. Previously when I have looked it was the corner sim that had the banlines. Like whackamole, they come and go but sailing through there is only for the most adventurous.

Technically Mare Secundus is "Central Area" (according to the Wiki's break down of areas). For some time now the route there from Sea of Fables hasn't been too bad, just the tiny banline in Pierce as a snare (the owners parcel is ls no bigger than billboard size - they can only have banlines there because they enjoy being antisocial). and from there on to Coelho and the Western waterways going SW is and has been open for at least 6 months now probably longer. From Conniston to Bay City, taking that route there are no more than three or 4 banlines to pass and none that awkward for anything smaller than a bandit 60, or Trudeau 12m (I think the trudeau has to edit through one low bridge).

You seem to be content with water access with a bit of danger, as an adventure. For me though I come at it differently. I organise and run cruises for 3 groups now... and for a route to be to my mind open... it needs to be easy enough that it is the sim crossings people are complaining about not the banlines and resident obstructions. For me then an intercontinental channel to be worth aspiring to and advocating for has to be an easy route, one that doesn't have 90 degree turns, in minimal width Linden waterways with banlines on one or both sides.

Ps reading my paragraphs back as a whole I am sounding grumpy or mansplaining, arguing.. That is just the way the words have come out, I am intending to sound conversational. Please try to overlook how the words look.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Aethelwine

[ChinRey]

17 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

You seem to be content with water access with a bit of danger, as an adventure. For me though I come at it differently. I organise and run cruises for 3 groups now... and for a route to be to my mind open... it needs to be easy enough that it is the sim crossings people are complaining about not the banlines and resident obstructions.

Yes, I agree that would be the ideal solution. Ideally that means a line of protected water sims along the entire northern coastline. The second best solution would be if some Mole went out and added marker buoys along the protected waterways. Both solutions would require active involvement from LL though and I can't see that happening.

[Anna Nova]

19 hours ago, IceCold Skytower said:

I have made an efficient banline detector, peek in my marketplace store for it... >_> I'm also working on finding effective methods of finding orbs, i already managed to reliably detect one of them. Happens to blabber on channel 2222. I hope along with this movement we can also progress on orb detection methods, then we can arm ourselves with the huds that detect them.

Well, I have one of your competitor's Banline Detectors, and very good it is.  But in order to encourage you to push on with your research, I have bought yours too.  I'm quite interested in the clear notification of sim crossing that i gives - some flying machine huds have that built in, and I miss it in the others.

[Anna Nova]

14 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Yes, I agree that would be the ideal solution. Ideally that means a line of protected water sims along the entire northern coastline. The second best solution would be if some Mole went out and added marker buoys along the protected waterways. Both solutions would require active involvement from LL though and I can't see that happening.

I suggest we don't suggest that LL increase their costs.  We need to be inventive about ways that they can improve the profitability of their business and give us our fun (and business, if you must) too.  This is why I suggested that they make a transit charge for using new intercontinental routes.  I want them so much I'd be prepared to pay!

I'd pay LL for a security orb killer raygun too.  If anything drives me away it will  those, or the bloody terrible sim crossings.

[Anna Nova]

22 hours ago, Sammi Boa said:

Ah last, others seem to be thinking about something I'd never been able to understand, why are not all the continents of Second Life been so isolated from each other for so long?

...

They think we all TP everywhere.  Well I don't.

[Fionalein]

On 13.6.2018 at 7:24 PM, ChinRey said:

That sentence surprised me at first because if I had a security orb for my home here, I certainly wouldn't mind if people detected it in advance. The way I see it, the purpose of a security orb is to keep people from entering and if they notice it before they even try to enter, that's even better.

Well actually that wouldn't be as hard, add some extra buffer zone and make the orb say "you are nearing a private area please stay away". But given folks tradition to orb their whole damn parcel they would thus shout over to neighbouring parcels... which would make the orbs spam objects and AR-able... so not gonna happen. One of my friends has a 1s orb neighbour now.... funny folks, I wonder how many ships will end up in their parcel (because IMHO usually whoever sets up low time orbs does not understand how to set up parcel autoreturn either).

Edited June 14, 2018 by Fionalein

[ChinRey]

10 hours ago, anna2358 said:

They think we all TP everywhere.  Well I don't.

Now that you mention it, didn't people have to pay LL for teleports back in the days the continents were made?

Edited June 14, 2018 by ChinRey
Typo

[IceCold Skytower]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Now tgar you mention it, didn't people have to pay LL for teleports back in the days the continents were made?

You paid 10L to teleport to a telehub, like a fast travel. They stopped doing that around the time they opened the second cluster of continents and Jeogeot, made it so you can teleport anywhere and gave the residents the power to be their own estate managers, and buy private islands. Thats how i remember it at least.

I miss those days, protected land actually mattered, everything was more simple, and all connected, no private islands

[animats]

11 hours ago, anna2358 said:

Well, I have one of your competitor's Banline Detectors, and very good it is.  But in order to encourage you to push on with your research, I have bought yours too.  I'm quite interested in the clear notification of sim crossing that i gives - some flying machine huds have that built in, and I miss it in the others.

It's possible, with suitable script coding, to bounce off a collision with a ban line or no-entry parcel. It's easy to script this. Someone must have discovered this long ago. Why isn't it a feature of most boats? Am I missing something here? This seems exactly what's needed for those tight waterways where invisible parcel keep-out areas extend past the shoreline.

As a demo, I put this in the classic Linden beach ball, and I've been testing it by bouncing it off the boundaries of hostile parcels. So far, it hasn't gotten stuck. I do mostly motorcycles, and I'll be putting this in our bikes. Someone from the boating community is welcome to do this for boats.

[Geneer Gynoid]

On 6/13/2018 at 5:03 AM, ChinRey said:

1. Sim names. Let people have an open space sim named after them if they agree to pay the cost. Maybe a discreet plaque or something crediting the benefactor too. Of course, you'd have to be a bit selective and not accept any sim name just for the money but it should still be possible to cover the expenses for quite a few sims that way.

I thought about this as well, perhaps sell naming rights to the new sims, like some RL places sell named sponsor brick walkways, etc.

On 6/13/2018 at 5:03 AM, ChinRey said:

2. ..... That ought to be a very interesting niche market and you can easily put two or even four fair sized islands on a homestead sim and still have plenty of room for navigable open water.

Yes, perhaps a rental structure for some parcels within the sims would help pay for this. As well as parcel rentals for the atoll sims... Think about it, how is this any different from tropical sims that already exist? Sure, things aren't over crowded in Sl waterways, but, those vacancies happen to be in the more expensive areas, so cheaper alternatives DO exist and people will rent from the lesser expensive parcels....

So if LL does create a bridge, sells sims, how much would those sims go for? top dollar meaning the parcels are same prices as the Blake area sims, which are NOT filled.... so... the rate at which these sims become populated, lucrative for owners and LL themselves, depends on how much LL charges for the individual sims.

But, we are here to dream and plan, so... Stay positive!

Julia

[Geneer Gynoid]

On 6/13/2018 at 6:03 AM, Sammi Boa said:

why are not all the continents of Second Life been so isolated from each other for so long?

Well, contrary to some thinking, I suppose its much easier to ascertain, that they were simply separated in such a way that it provided plenty of grid space for outward continental expansion. YES, sims can be moved, but its better to give oneself room to expand when the needs arise. I think its so individual future continental growth doesn't interfere with one another geographically.

[Fionalein]

4 minutes ago, Geneer Gynoid said:

So if LL does create a bridge, sells sims, how much would those sims go for?

Pretty much, until the first owner orbs one... leaving the rest of the channel left and right of it pretty useless...

Edited June 15, 2018 by Fionalein

[Geneer Gynoid]

1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

Pretty much, until the first owner orbs one... leaving the rest of the channel left and right of it pretty useless...

Hehehe, yea, right? I guess the owners would have to enact similar sailing sims covenants banning banlines and orbs. Rules to keep the channel what it was designed for... open travel.

[Geneer Gynoid]

Outside of the East river itself, perhaps the only logical place to grab it would be to put a sim in the 'L' created by Bleaberry Tarn and Harter Fell. This would be on the end of the East river.... BUT, its VERY south if departing Atanua. BUT maybe an ATOL has two exits, one going south and one continuing west and hitting Heterocera. But I'm ahead of myself, but if you are going to dream, dream BIG!

Now, if the route was opened a little more, then a Satori departure from Stromburg is doable, but is still pretty far north (as far as Sansara is concerned)

Including ANY of the sims that exist in the NE side off the coast of Langdale sim, etc. Those sims are NOT constructed to accommodate any water traffic, so including them is not an option in my opinion. They are allocated to whomever commissioned them, so they cannot be considered at this stage. we only gain a few sims of 'what is needed as a whole', but really may pose more of a logistical inclusion than we think. Speculation, of-course, but I do NOT want to assume.

There would be some squiggle, but tacking into Moses or Bevel would be usable... being on the NE end of the continent. Ideal would be something that wiggled to ANWR, as mentioned before. Dump it RIGHT into the open water with routes to 3 paths IMMEDIATELY.

MY thoughts, for what they are worth, is we would get the best usability from Atanua to ANWR. IF I was asked what would be ideal.

Julia

[Sketch Sun]

Forgive me if it has been said already, but it seems to me that the compelling reasons for LL to integrate continents comes from their original charter of creating a world (and not a scattershot gaming experience) as well as what they care about most - money. While their cash cow is still kicking they should make efforts to retain customers and increase their value proposition. We have all seen how rivers, connected waterways, and roads push sales (real estate and goods), and the places where it has not (think of those large swatches of land that stayed empty for years). Connecting waterways and transit areas enhances our experience, so we stay, play, and pay. For each happy resident we pay direct dues, fees on sales, and add our IP that LL seems willing to capitalize on as well. 

I personally think that residents should not need to pay for a bit of server cost between our rented areas - it's already factored into their cost and benefit. Build a good product and people buy (or stay/join in this case). 

[animats]

4 hours ago, Sketch Sun said:

We have all seen how rivers, connected waterways, and roads push sales (real estate and goods), and the places where it has not (think of those large swatches of land that stayed empty for years).

Yes. Once you get far from water and roads on the continents, you find abandoned land with nothing on it. What are you going to do with 1024 m^2 in the hills of Corsica? There's nothing to do there. Nothing happens around you.

Now look at all those tiny islands near the Blake Sea. People buy those and build on them, and watch the sailboats go by.

What could go between the continents is Linden Homes, the 1024 m^2 generation. Now that premium members get 1024 m^2, Linden Homes A, B, and C are obsolete. "Live the lifestyle of the rich and famous." That sells in SL. Get a 1024 m^2 house on the water with your premium membership. Go for about 30 homes per sim, with lots of water and roads, like some of the better estates. Put in a commercial area once in a while for retail and entertainment, and some water-only sims as filler.

Maybe that's the pitch to make to LL - now that premium users get more tier, LL needs to provide them with bigger and better homes.

[Klytyna]

7 hours ago, animats said:

Yes

No...

7 hours ago, animats said:

Once you get far from water and roads on the continents, you find abandoned land with nothing on it.

That's because, in a world where you can instantly teleport to your favorite shopping area, or beach or park, people are STILL clueless enough to believe the Realtor BS about "...only 3 sims by road from the abandoned ruins of the Philip Linden Memorial Sports Arena, home of the 2006 SLolympics! That alone justifies the 16 L$/sqm sale price, as I'm sure you'll agree..."

7 hours ago, animats said:

What are you going to do with 1024 m^2 in the hills of Corsica?

Well, you could... Live there, when you are not teleporting to your fave shopping sims, beaches, clubs, friends homes, etc...

7 hours ago, animats said:

What could go between the continents is Linden Homes, the 1024 m^2 generation. Now that premium members get 1024 m^2, Linden Homes A, B, and C are obsolete.

Ahhh, build more under used Entitlement Club housing ghettos...

7 hours ago, animats said:

Go for about 30 homes per sim, with lots of water and roads,

A full sim is 64  1024 lots, so half a sim of houses, leaving half a sim for the "lots of water and roads". Problem with that is it certainly wouldn't be "lifestyle of the rich and famous", but more like a bunch of Swampies living in shacks on a bayou.

Then there's the water and roads problem, lots of water AND lots of roads, means LOTS of BRIDGES. You can't "watch the sailboats go by" when they keep crashing into all the bridges, so...

Every island plot will basically have to be a cliff sided mesa sticking out of the sea, so the roads, and the road bridges will be high enough off the water for the sailboats to navigate the canyons between the Swampies close packed run down prim hovels...

"Lifestyle of the rich and famous..." NOT.

You really need to stop thinking with your motorbike...

8 hours ago, animats said:

Put in a commercial area once in a while for retail and entertainment

Yeah, as if we didn't know what tends to happen to LL designed "commercial zones". You live in Kama City, take a drive down the roads to Mosh and South Mosh and SEE what you are actually proposing.

8 hours ago, animats said:

Maybe that's the pitch to make to LL

Connect the continents with fugly strip-mall style housing ghettos, with an "Arizona Badlands after the ice caps melt, post apocalyptic refugee camp" theme with occasional immersive abandoned urban ruins RP areas.

Let's not and say we did...

How about just using empty water sims so people can sail/fly between the continents, like the routes that ALREADY connect some of them.
 

[ChinRey]

On 15.6.2018 at 3:33 AM, Geneer Gynoid said:

Including ANY of the sims that exist in the NE side off the coast of Langdale sim, etc.

Yes, they are useless unfortunately.

 

On 15.6.2018 at 3:33 AM, Geneer Gynoid said:

Outside of the East river itself, perhaps the only logical place to grab it would be to put a sim in the 'L' created by Bleaberry Tarn and Harter Fell. This would be on the end of the East river.... BUT, its VERY south if departing Atanua.

The shortest route from there would actually be through Bevel. You would need to procure some mainland at Torver for it to get into Carmichael from there but with that in place, connecting Blaeberry Tarn to Bevel would only require a maximum of four sims, even less if you can secure some key parcels in Bleberry Tarn, Stone Pike and/or Torver - or even better, persuade LL to reassign these parcels as protected land. In an ideal scenario, it may be possible to connect Blaeberry Tarn to Bevel without adding a single new region. This solution would also add some purpose to Tikva, probably the most useless sim on the entire grid. Of course, it would also be possible to contact the current landowners along that route and ask if they are willing to keep channels through their land open for the public. (Yes, I know that's a very un-SLish approach but it may work.)

 

On 15.6.2018 at 3:33 AM, Geneer Gynoid said:

There would be some squiggle, but tacking into Moses or Bevel would be usable... being on the NE end of the continent. Ideal would be something that wiggled to ANWR, as mentioned before. Dump it RIGHT into the open water with routes to 3 paths IMMEDIATELY.

How about doing it in stages? Start with the Northest Passage between Bevel and Atanua. That is the shortest route to make any connection between the two main bodies of SL water at all and all other routes are likely to go thgouh or close to those two regions anyway.

Once that connection is in place, start looking for ways to improve the network by securing routes eastwards and southwards from Bevel and southwards from Atanua.

 

13 hours ago, Sketch Sun said:

Forgive me if it has been said already, but it seems to me that the compelling reasons for LL to integrate continents comes from their original charter of creating a world (and not a scattershot gaming experience)

Yes but they ditched that idea more than a decade ago and never looked back.

 

1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

A full sim is 64  1024 lots, so half a sim of houses, leaving half a sim for the "lots of water and roads". Problem with that is it certainly wouldn't be "lifestyle of the rich and famous", but more like a bunch of Swampies living in shacks on a bayou.

Quite the contrary, this is exactly how the most popular "exclusive" private estates are configured: Four large or sixteen smaller islands spread out evenly across the sim with wide waterways between to allow some rudimentary boating activities but even more as buffer zones to improve the privacy of the islands. Bridges won't be a problem since connecting the islands is the last thing the residents would want. Keeping a large part of the region open and sparsely decorated (although as a mermaid I hope there'll be room for a little bit of content on the seabed) also allows for increased prim quotas for the rented out islands and that still seems to be a very good sales argument.

There is a limit to how many such sims you can launch into a declining market though. 90 new ones would probably be too much, so although it can finance part of the channel, it won't cover it all. To maximize privacy, these sims should be located a bit away from the connection points and probably not all lumped together either.

I think all, or at least most of the - region should have one or more islands, mainly as landmarks (literally) to make navigation easier but also because traversing multiple water sims is rather dull. Even a small piece of land with a few trees on it would greatly improve the experience.

 

9 hours ago, animats said:

What could go between the continents is Linden Homes, the 1024 m^2 generation. Now that premium members get 1024 m^2, Linden Homes A, B, and C are obsolete. "Live the lifestyle of the rich and famous." That sells in SL. Get a 1024 m^2 house on the water with your premium membership. Go for about 30 homes per sim, with lots of water and roads, like some of the better estates.

Make it 24 1024 m2 parcels with double prims and Linden Lab should have a sure winner. In my experience this is not the way they think though. Good people have spent years trying to convince LL that travelling and exploration could be a valuable addition to a virtual reality desperately in need of more things to do to keep people interested. So far LL doesn't even seem to have managed to grasp the basic concept.

Edited June 16, 2018 by ChinRey