Connect the Continents

[Geneer Gynoid]

10 hours ago, MeesterP said:

I would make that journey, and I know others who would as well...

MeesterP gets it! Its about the journey! Lets do something wonderful!

Quote

But if the "bridge" was actually made of inhabited clusters of sims, as it's been illustrated in previous posts, people would actually live in the "bridge" as in any other part of mainland.  That would provide places to visit for pilots/sailors, or they could just depart from there as their home.

yes, that or isolated islands, rez zones, points of interest, things to see, for sure....

For the folks that say that the sims need to be payed for, sure, rent-able parcels.... There is a TON of sims in between continents that connect them, all around the large group of continents, PLENTY of sims that are LL and NOT rent-able sims, THEY are there..  for sailing, flying, diving, etc. Not EVERY new sim needs to be a profit load for LL. Towns all over make parks and recreation areas for recreation. I'm not saying that every sim needs to be a freebie, but, this is a community proposal for everyone NOT just US....

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I'm not against the hypothetical portal, of course, although it's not as fun to me as actually flying/sailing.

Im sorry, I am not for a portal. YES, folks, its a neat idea in itself, but we can already TP anywhere, so how is this anything other than TPin IN our sailbaot.... bleh.... no thanks...  This proposal was for a sailable, flyable connection to not only connect the continents, but to create a whole new thing in SL that can be used for a number of crafting uses. The Atoll can be a themed wonder in itself - the channels can be islands with parcels or parks, or other wonders to explore.

I never said this would be easy.... I just said it would be awesome?

Julia

Edited June 21, 2018 by Geneer Gynoid
spelling

[Parhelion Palou]

OpenSpace regions are now an endangered resource. After this month new ones will not be sold. (Per Another 15 for 15 - Lower Land Prices and Reduced Set Up Fees) Too bad, the monthly tier for them is dropping to $60 as of July for the ones that already exist.

[MeesterP]

I once heard that at some point, many years ago, teleportation of objects was enabled and tested by Linden Lab. However, it was rapidly and permanently disabled because of security reasons. It apparently created unmanageable problems of hacking and griefing.

I am not 100% sure if this story is true, but I personally think it is.  In fact, LL never brought back such technical solution, or even floated it. And LL have all interest in introducing such technical innovations inworld, as it would increase customer interest and traffic in SL. 

So, if we still haven't seen region portals in SL, it may be because it is not really viable for security or other technical reasons. 

That said, I appreciate those who proposed the region portal idea and their contribution to the discussion (a.k.a. I'm not arguing against you). 

On the other hand, the idea of creating/moving sims to create a bridge or connecting continent between the 2 main landmasses (Satori and Sansara/Heterocera) may be a big challenge, but it is totally possible.

Edited June 21, 2018 by MeesterP

[ChinRey]

On 20.6.2018 at 6:51 AM, IceCold Skytower said:

I do have the impression that most people want to live isolated, thats what changed about SL since its golden years, its not the platform thats changed, the people and the whole global mentality.

Maybe, maybe not. The fact (or assumtion) that people tend to be less social in RL, might mean that there is more need for online social channels now than there used to be.

Second Lfie has never been suitable as a social platform nor as an integrated continuous virtual reality. I know those were some of the stated purposes os SL in the beginning but LL made so many fundamental mistakes that unintentionally discouraged such behaviour. As far as I know nobody else has made a bone fide attempt to create such a virtual reality either so whether there is a markt for it or not, is impossible to say. It is worth noting though, that even after fifteen years fighting agaisnt the odds and the grid owner, ther are still people in SL who haven't given up. So there must eb at least some demand for it.

 

On 19.6.2018 at 8:30 PM, animats said:

Of course, that's what Sansar is - a bunch of disconnected regions connected only by a directory site. That's also what OpenSim is.

Not quite. The largest continuous area of navigable water I know of on the OS Grid consists of 28 3x3 varisims - the equivalent of 252 SL sims. There may be other larger ones for all I know.

[animats]

36 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Maybe, maybe not. The fact (or assumption) that people tend to be less social in RL, might mean that there is more need for on line social channels now than there used to be.

Second Life has never been suitable as a social platform nor as an integrated continuous virtual reality. I know those were some of the stated purposes of SL in the beginning but LL made so many fundamental mistakes that unintentionally discouraged such behavior. As far as I know nobody else has made a bona-fide attempt to create such a virtual reality either so whether there is a market for it or not, is impossible to say. It is worth noting though, that even after fifteen years fighting against the odds and the grid owner, there are still people in SL who haven't given up. So there must be at least some demand for it.

Interesting. As an integrated continuous virtual reality, SL isn't fundamentally broken. It works reasonably well. It could be fixed. But SL has a huge amount of technical debt. There's so much legacy code, and it's badly documented. The protocol documentation is sketchy. Much of the viewer code is painful C++, with few comments. I assume the sim code is as bad. I don't think LL really understands their own system; that's why they can't fix region crossings. Doing something hard, like making sims multi-threaded so they could use modern CPUs effectively, is probably beyond the organization's capabilities.

SL presents programming problems alien to the current generation of web programmers. The world wide web works, despite vast amounts of bad code, only because it has very little persistent state. Every web page load is a fresh start. The only shared state is in databases. SL doesn't work that way. SL is all about persistent state. Objects stay around for years, yet can move. The stack and heap of a script live for years. Many users are seeing the same dynamically changing shared state. That's all hard and unforgiving.

To pay down the technical debt would be a big effort. LL would have to write extensive internal documentation, clean up code, develop tools for analyzing system state (you should never have to tell LL that a region is broken; they should know already), and document and log the protocol to the level of detail that TCP is documented and logged. That would be expensive, although cheaper than the Sansar debacle was. After that, the system would work just as it did before, but major future work would be possible. It's building for the ages, the opposite of "agile" programming.  "Agile" works for the web because it's such a forgiving environment. SL isn't. SL is 15 years old. It might make it to 30. AutoCAD, which I once worked on, is 35 and still going strong. Little of the original code remains, but old drawings still work.

On the social front, SL doesn't do all that badly. Griefing is a minor nuisance. It's not crippling the whole platform. Compare the fraction of email that is spam. Or the jerk level in VRchat. Fortnite has aggressive AIs kicking out users for misbehavior; just standing around and watching without playing can get a user banned.

SL continues to lose users, slowly. This seems to be mostly a failure of the onboarding process. 10,000 new users sign up a day, claims LL, but they're not appearing in world in such numbers. If SL could retain 5% of the new signups for three months, usage would double.

[Klytyna]

On 20 June 2018 at 5:10 PM, MeesterP said:

Certainly, if all those sims in Zindra were reclaimed and used to build a useful connecting continent between Satori and Heterocera, that would be much better, in my opinion

So...

Because YOU think the desires of a small minority of Vehicle-Bigots, who refuse to TP when they can ruin other peoples SLives by demanding more prim-waste roads, is more important that the desires of everyone who wants and uses, and in many cases live on, an ADULT rated continent, that said continent should be "reclaimed"...

On 20 June 2018 at 5:10 PM, MeesterP said:

In my modest opinion, all that display of obscenity in Second Life is #deplorable and a stain on the image and the otherwise remarkable work of Linden Lab. But I guess I'm just being backwards, so I'll stop here. 

Please do, vehicle users are NOT "Special Snowflakes", with some innate right to demand that all non vehicle related activities in SL be subordinated to their desire to lag and crash in their cars, planes, and boats.

Always, the hardcore vehicle bigots complain, how dare a parcel owner put up banlines to keep strangers out of their home, thus obstructing flyers and drivers and sailors, how dare they want privacy, how dare they do this, or that, that doesn't facilitate free use of every part of SL by the Vehicle bigots.

...

Britain is separated from Europe by 20 odd miles of water...

NOBODY would support "reclaiming" enough of Scotland to build a causeway from Dover to Calais, so the M2 motorway could be extended to the continent, and people wouldn't have to use a car ferry, because somebody didn't like bagpipes...

People would, quite correctly dismiss such a "modest opinion" as a sure sign of galloping insanity.

What's wrong with using alternative means of travel, like NORMAL people?

WHY should you be able to drive from every Madlands continent to every other Madlands continent?

 

[Fionalein]

So if you are confident you will be paying the depts by renting of the islands make up a business plan, present it to your bank and loan some money... should be easy 

PS: But don't blame it on me if it doesn't work out.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Fionalein

[Geneer Gynoid]

6 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Vehicle-Bigots

So much for constructive comments in this thread. Please, name-calling is unnecessary.

6 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Always, the hardcore vehicle bigots complain, how dare a parcel owner put up banlines to keep strangers out of their home, thus obstructing flyers and drivers and sailors, how dare they want privacy, how dare they do this, or that, that doesn't facilitate free use of every part of SL by the Vehicle bigots.

I'm also biting my tongue and keeping my thoughts and comments on the whole banline/orb argument for another thread...

This thread is about the connection for the continents, if you have no use for it, don't use it... Its that simple....

Julia

[Geneer Gynoid]

6 hours ago, animats said:

SL continues to lose users, slowly. This seems to be mostly a failure of the onboarding process. 10,000 new users sign up a day, claims LL, but they're not appearing in world in such numbers. If SL could retain 5% of the new signups for three months, usage would double.

Unfortunately, I think the majority of new signons are alts... Maybe that's why you don't really see that many new residents.... I'm sure its alt least a large number of them.

[animats]

12 minutes ago, Geneer Gynoid said:

Unfortunately, I think the majority of new signons are alts... Maybe that's why you don't really see that many new residents.... I'm sure its alt least a large number of them.

10,000 alts a day? For what?

[Klytyna]

2 hours ago, Geneer Gynoid said:

So much for constructive comments in this thread. Please, name-calling is unnecessary.

I've sailed, and flown and driven across SL on many occasions, but I NEVER deluded my self into thinking that these activities were "what the majority want to do all the time, rather than all that boring [ everything else the majority do instead of use vehicles ]".

However we have here in this thread, an individual who has proposed that an ENTIRE continent be shut down, because HE disapproves of other peoples NON-Vehicle based activities there, so that all those sims can be sequestrated by Govenance and "reclaimed" for the use of the couple of dozen members of the "Too Arrogant to Teleport" club.

It wasn't "name calling", it was a description, based off the aforementioned suggestion, and the reasoning behind it.

I don't have a problem with connecting isolated continents with navigable shipping lanes.

Building massive causeways more than 20 km long, because a TINY minority feel agrieved about hav ing to leave their prim-cars, is just insane.

3 hours ago, Geneer Gynoid said:

I'm also biting my tongue and keeping my thoughts and comments on the whole banline/orb argument

Personally, I cannot think of a valid reason for using orbs on land where you have parc el rights to set banlines, that's what banlines are for.

But, people who pay for land, are entitled to keep that land private for their own use if they want, regardless of how vehicle users feel.

Now, there could be more advice on how and when to use banlines, and the SL Inferiority viewer could learn a thing or two from the TPV's, Catznip has an option to display parcel lines AND banlined areas on the minimap. When I'm moving about SL, I don't walk into banlines by surprise, because I can SEE the red areas on the minimap in the corner of my screen.

Perhaps your time would be better spent petitioning LL to add that feature to their viewer, than in defending somebody who wants to dispossess an entire continents worth of land owners, rental tenants, and club/shop customers, simply because "Ewww Not PG-Bible-Belt! Lookout! Nipples!" provides an excuse for building 20 km causeways out of other peoples sims without having to ask members of the "Too arrogant to Teleport" club to pay for a couple or three sims each...
 

[IceCold Skytower]

3 hours ago, animats said:

10,000 alts a day? For what?

all the bots for all the piramid scheme game exploitations ofcourse

[ChinRey]

10 hours ago, Klytyna said:

What's wrong with using alternative means of travel, like NORMAL people?

Normal people don't use SL, Klytyna.

[MeesterP]

On 6/21/2018 at 12:38 PM, Parhelion Palou said:

OpenSpace regions are now an endangered resource. After this month new ones will not be sold. (Per Another 15 for 15 - Lower Land Prices and Reduced Set Up Fees) Too bad, the monthly tier for them is dropping to $60 as of July for the ones that already exist.

That's a very interesting offer, thanks Parhelion for reporting it!

Edited June 22, 2018 by MeesterP

[MeesterP]

 

So far there have been many very, very interesting ideas in this forum on how to connect continents...  So grateful to all contributors.  

I think I'll go ahead and start collecting and compiling the ideas exposed in the forum so far, they will come handy in the operational phase. 

Folks, I believe it's just matter of time and the beautiful continents of SL will be communicating! 

 

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, MeesterP said:

I think I'll go ahead and start collecting and compiling the ideas exposed in the forum so far, they will come handy in the operational phase.

Don't trouble your self...

You MIGHT have convinced LL to stick in 90-100 openspace sims of mostly empty water in a 1 sim wide strip...

You probably won't convince them to build a "Flooded Badlands Canyon Ghetto Housing Strip Mall with Abandoned Urban Ruins Commercial Zones", as suggested by the self appointed "Clueless Messiah Noob".

You'll have a hard time convincing them to up the sim count by expanding the strip to 2 or 3 sims wide in places to add "kewl islands".

There is NO chance that you can convince them to DESTROY a Madlands continent, because YOU think SL needs a moral purge of "ungodly smut", so they can recycle the sims into a strip 2 or 3 sims wide, with an inter-continetal mega highway on stilts besides a shipping channel, with luxury islands dotted all over the place around it.

Luxury home buyers won't want to live right next to some fugly concrete freeway.

...

Try going back to the original idea, a single strip of watery openspace sims, connecting the navigable coastal waters of two continents.

THAT's an achievable goal...
 

[MeesterP]

On 6/23/2018 at 12:40 AM, Klytyna said:

Try going back to the original idea, a single strip of watery openspace sims, connecting the navigable coastal waters of two continents.
 

I definitely support the idea of a strip of watery Open Space sims.  If you do read the previous posts, I said that I support the idea, totally.   Where did I say that I don't?   That's a great idea.   But it's not the only idea (it is OKAY to put more than one idea on the table).  Here at the ConnectTheContinents forum, we consider other solutions as well.

In fact, your post came with really good timing, because, these very days, I am trying to buy multiple Open Space sims. LL have just announced a discount from $75 to $60 monthly fee, and I am seriously interested. However, I do not own a full sim (that's a prerequisite to buy 1 or more Open Space sims), and I am not interested in one full sim, as I have really no use for it. But I have a use for multiple Open Space ones. Basically, I am looking for at least one reliable full-sim owner to team up with. I would be paying for the Open Space sims, while he/she provides the full sim (that could be a full sim he already owns).

That said, the other idea of a bridge continent of any kind, remains one of my favorites. ( and I'm not talking of touching your beloved Zindra, God forbade!  I was teasing  )

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by MeesterP

[Solar Legion]

Since at least one seems confused ....

This is the Forum: Second Life Official Forum.

This is the Sub-Forum: Land Forum.

This is the Category of the Sub-Forum: General Discussion.

This is the current Thread, filed under the Second Life Forum, Sub-Forum Land, Category General Discussion: Connect the Continents.

The only user set that gets to determine what is on topic and what truly is not? The Linden Moderators. If you'd like more control - you'll have to make your own forum.

All of that out of the way, to the topic at hand: Unless you plan on paying the hosting fees or accepting however Linden Lab decides to distribute said fees, the "idea" of using actual Sims as Sailable/Drivable/Flyable zones is a pipe dream at best. You're a minority amongst the rest of the user base - live with it.

Most of the other methods that could be used were either tried before and found to be lacking/too exploitable or attempting to make them work would badly break other functions or otherwise take a whole heck of a lot longer to get functioning than most of you may bother remaining in Second Life.

They had their reasons for not connecting the 'continents' when each was being laid down and while some aren't issues anymore there are still things to consider. Much of which has already been covered.

Your own fault if you choose not to listen.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Solar Legion

[Geneer Gynoid]

14 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

The only user set that gets to determine what is on topic and what truly is not? The Linden Moderators. If you'd like more control - you'll have to make your own forum.

Thank you for pointing this out for us

14 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

They had their reasons for not connecting the 'continents' when each was being laid down and while some aren't issues anymore there are still things to consider. Much of which has already been covered.

Oh, so we actually DON'T need you to point this out for us.....

I'm always extremely reluctant to respond to post with this and previous flavors, because in the world of online forums, and message boards, etc, this only fuels your fire. Nothing I say will do anything except invite your pointed retort. In it's internet form, this has been going on since the late 80's/early 90's. You are not pioneers.

I will say this. To those that feel it necessary to come and adamantly educate us 'couple dozen' dreamers on what LL will or will not do.

(and btw, we don't have a ton, but did get nearly 250 members in the in-world group in the first 24 hours. Now, does this mean we have many more than that... nah, not really, but the interest was such that a lot of folks posted interest and support immediately when hearing about it from group notices throughout. I still get IMs from airport owners, land and sim owners, sail and flying group personnel and moderators that have expressed support and thanks for this endeavor. I never majored in math, but that's more than a couple dozen).

Back to my point.... Every one of us dreamers from DAY ONE is and was WELL aware that this is not going anywhere - LL has NO intention of applying this proposal - this is a monumental undertaking to even get a large set of sims opened, and appropriated with little to no income for LL supporting its construct. LL has NO reason or incentive to do anything other than MAYBE mention its viability, good or bad, and we probably wont even get that much! So, your (and you know who you are) negative, vindictive, unfriendly posts scolding us to our ignorance, is nothing more than simply annoying to a thread that was started to speak of a wonderful idea. You are NOT educating us. You are NOT telling us anything we don't already know. You are NOT enlightening us to any facts or even responses we did not already anticipate.

The only thing happening is such a negative response from such a positive idea. I welcomed the 'No's when we opened this dialog, what I AM disappointed with are the adamant condescending tones that are coming with such arrogant conviction. We get it, you got a pretty good beat on things.

I so dislike responding and giving attention to this behavior, but I have to say something. Not that I am any more important than any other member of the CC group. I am not. I am also not the first to come up with this idea. And that's all it is an idea. We all know of its futility, hence the need for a constructive discussion. I don't think one can hit a ball without swinging the bat.

I am guilty of dreaming, I am sorry our dreaming offends your forum awareness. Like I said, I don't mind the No's, i welcome them. But why some have to be so callous or malevolent in tone, that helps no one. If you feel we are so misguided, then perhaps your precious time is worth other endeavors. Let us not distract you.

Julia
- I will reply no more to these BS posts.

(now, of-course, as most forums revert to this, as many who come for ideas, see that ideas are of the past, and its just a flame throwing contest, they leave and time waits until the moderators finally close the thread. I had hoped we could get more of an ongoing dialog for this, but I see condescension seems to silent the constructive input, and we are left for the passers by to take their pot-shots. I hope this is not the case)

 

[Prokofy Neva]

I don't think the Lindens will do this because it's an expense of time and money. But there's a halfway house -- at least put some voides around the edges that now have a "hard stop" and make the "Linden Sea" impossible to sale on. There are some very, very narrow (and sometimes not navigable places) that they could round off on the outer edges of continents and improve sailing at least to the extent of one void sim.

[Aethelwine]

On 6/26/2018 at 11:49 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't think the Lindens will do this because it's an expense of time and money. But there's a halfway house -- at least put some voides around the edges that now have a "hard stop" and make the "Linden Sea" impossible to sale on. There are some very, very narrow (and sometimes not navigable places) that they could round off on the outer edges of continents and improve sailing at least to the extent of one void sim.

It wouldn't take many homesteads to really open up sailing on continents, link up the North and south sailing areas of zindra, join up disconnected waterways around Jeogeot, Satori and heterocera to make them circumnavigable, open up a west and North passage around Nautilus, open up the South Corsica route. Opening up the route from Corsica to Gaeta V. Sansare could do with a homestead on the corner east of Mowbry Bay too.

As it is many of the difficult routes in place just aren't doable in anything but a slow speed motorboat so the boat has a chance to avoid the banlines or bounce off them rather than getting snared up, especially where the linden routes involve 45 degree angles in parts. Straight linden routes along the edges of sims, whilst not ideal aren't a huge barrier to a sailing route. It is the twists and turns on sim borders and the just plain dead ends that form the barriers. With careful placement just 10 or 20 homesteads could really open up the continents.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Aethelwine

[MeesterP]

The following information should be provided by LL:

1.   Accurate and thorough explanations of the technical and economical reasons why the various solutions proposed in the previous posts would be, or not be, doable.
2.   An accurate and thorough estimate of the exact costs of each of the proposed solutions. (Also, some guidance to interested users on how to proceed on what needs to be bought (if any) would help too, but it's not a requirement).
3.   If compiling the information at points 1) and 2) requires much time and costly hours of work on LL side, fine, we would perfectly understand that.   Then LL should produce a quote of how much it costs to just carry on that estimate.    In other words, interested users could pay LL for the time needed to compile the quotes of costs and technical aspects at points 1) and 2).

Not unlike in RL, when you ask a contractor for a quote of the prospective costs for renovation work in your home, it is normal and understandable that you pay him something for the time needed to compile the estimate (yes, some may do the quote for free, I know).

Doing the above points 1) to 3) would be primarily in the interest of their business. It should be done even if only ONE SL USER requests it.

So, it is not a valid argument, in my opinion, for some people in this forum to say that the members of the aviation/sailing/driving communities are "a minority", therefore they can be overlooked (LL did not say that, some contributors of this forum did). 

Not doing things like those at points 1) to 3)  every time is requested, may help decreasing the general interest of the public in the awesome virtual world of Second Life. Then people would wonder "Uhm.. how come the user base of SL kept growing until a certain year, and then it suddenly stopped"?   

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by MeesterP

[Klytyna]

4 hours ago, MeesterP said:

Then people would wonder "Uhm.. how come the user base of SL kept growing until a certain year, and then it suddenly stopped"?

The year 2009...

Because thousands of greedy idiots who believed the hype about becoming RL rich JUST by logging into a video game and investing $10, found out they were never going to be wealthy digital land tycoons like Queen Anshe the 1st...

So they packed their bags and left...

4 hours ago, MeesterP said:

Not unlike in RL, when you ask a contractor for a quote of the prospective costs for renovation work in your home

LL are not a jobbing contractor, asking you to approve their tender for your renovation contract. They will happily SELL you empty sims, to build whatever kind of micro-continent you please, and they lowered setup fees and monthly maintenance charges this month!

4 hours ago, MeesterP said:

So, it is not a valid argument, in my opinion, for some people in this forum to say that the members of the aviation/sailing/driving communities are "a minority",

Actually it is... Your "joke" about Zindra ( no it's not my "beloved Zindra", I actually loath the place just for different reasons ), for example, the "minority interest" thing is extremely valid, LL will not demolish a large minority area to build a small minority area, for example, any more than they would abolish large popular shopping events to support small failed commercial retail park sims in quasi abandoned areas like Kama City or Nautilus etc.

4 hours ago, MeesterP said:

It should be done even if only ONE SL USER requests it.

You don't invest hundreds of employee hours doing cost estimates for some mad scheme dreamed up by one person. Or even 10 people, or 100... Unless theres some clear reason to believe that it will be popular enough to justify the cost.

This is why "small minority" interests don't get their own official LL Theme areas just for the asking.
 

[jaja2939]

my Change.org Link is up. for everyone http://chng.it/Qn4CxZWtGF

[LittleMe Jewell]

On 6/9/2018 at 12:05 AM, Geneer Gynoid said:

This is the official forum thread for the SL Connect the Continents interest group.

This group was created to grow momentum, popularity and plans to create a sim channel to connect the major continents in SecondLife; starting with a connection from Satori to Sansara, as well as a channel from Sansara to Jeogeot. Sailing, aviation,  passenger and freight fans alike would benefit from a long traverse-able connection between the larger closer continents. Please join in world if you support this idea, and our list/forum will serve as a petition/interest gathering.

We already have many members and are quickly gaining support from users, sim owners, airport owners, marina owners as well as basic SL craft enthusiasts.

This thread is the official thread where we will compile ideas, concerns, support, etc for this landmark proposal. Please feel free to contribute, but need I say, let's please keep this constructive.

Julia Raymond

See this blog post about the new Linden Homes:  https://modemworld.me/2019/03/15/new-linden-homes-preview/
 This comment in particular:

 

There is speculation in another thread as to which continents will be bridged - specifically this comment:
https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/426577-ssp/?do=findComment&comment=1870305