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17 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Bevel would be good but the route through from there to East River Community and then on to Bay City and Heterocera has a couple of bottlenecks with inconsiderate landowners and banlines..

Not at all:

Straight west: Bevel-Moses-Langdale-Coniston-Windermere-Bowness and from there are three alternative routes inwards to East River and the Sea of Fables. Tall ships need phantom masts because all three routes are spanned by LL owned bridges but apart from that, no problems at all.

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46 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Not at all:

Straight west: Bevel-Moses-Langdale-Coniston-Windermere-Bowness and from there are three alternative routes inwards to East River and the Sea of Fables. Tall ships need phantom masts because all three routes are spanned by LL owned bridges but apart from that, no problems at all.

Ideally an intercontinental route would be open to boats with non-phantom masts.. but even without...

Has Weatherall opened up again? I did try to persuade the owner there a few weeks ago that their banlines were causing problems, but they didn't seem to care, or rather maybe just went on the defensive straightaway... but maybe they have seen sense after initially digging their heels in?

The problem with that route it is like wackamole, you manage to convince one owner to remove their banlines and then someone new gets a parcel on the route and puts more up. It is fine for little motorboats at slow speed using a non-linden viewer with parcel borders showing on the minimap. But anything bigger or for anyone using the official viewer ... a moment of lag too much on a sim crossing and you are looking for a parcel to rezz a new boat.

Edited by Aethelwine

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56 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I ideally and intercontinental route would be open to boats with non-phantom masts.. but even without...

Yes but that's not realistic between the islands of Sansara. There are too many bridges everywhere.

 

56 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Has Weatherall opened up again?

I wouldn't know. I never tried that route because:

56 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

The problem with that route it is like wackamole, you manage to convince one owner to remove their banlines and then someone new gets a parcel on the route and puts more up.

That is not correct. There is a protected waterway going all the way from Port Langdale through Carlisle, and Honister to Kirkstone and onwards to the Sea of Fables.

The only place you have to cross private land sea is a 4 m(!) long and 32 m wide stretch at Langdale.

Ideally LL should take over those 128 m2 and make it an official part of the waterway. But since they won't, I'm absolutely 100% sure the current owner will keep it open as long as she owns it and be happy to donate it to the Connect the Continents group if she ever leaves. There are two reasons why I'm so certain about that. One is that the owner has public ports with public rez zones, GTFO hubs and even an SLCG substation all around the Consiton island so she needs to keep the passage open to the public. The other reason is that she's my alt.

Edited by ChinRey
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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

Yes but that's not realistic between the islands of Sansara. There are too many bridges everywhere.

 

I wouldn't know, I never tried that route bcause:

That is not correct. There is a protected waterway going all the way from Port Langdale through Carlisle, and Honister to Kirkstone and onwards to the Sea of Fables. The only place you have to cross private land sea is a 4 m(!) long and 32 m wide stretch at Langdale. Ideally LL should take over those 128 m2 and make it an official part of the waterway. But since they won't I'm absolutely 100% sure the current owner will keep it open as long as she owns it and be happy to donate it to the Connect the Continents group if she ever leaves. There are two reasons why I'm so certain about that. One is that the owner has public ports with public rez zones, GTFO hubs and een an SLCG substation all around the Consiton island so she needs to keep the passage open to the public. The otehr rason si that she's my alt.

1. Not if the linkage with Sansara is with the ANWR, on to Bay City and Bay of Space Pigs.

2. we might be talking at cross purposes, the Carlisle route is much better at the moment but still has a parcel with a banline at the north end and entrance to the river system there that extends over the waterway. It is easily passable, but I know if I ran a cruise through there even marking it out on a map and as a warning some people would likely still run in to it. My point is that the river systems around there have always been awkward with new owners from Carlisle\Weatherall south adding banlines. I have run cruises there before and banlines have appeared between making the maps and running the route a few days later.

I just don't think an intercontinental route to that area, at least not as a sole linkage would be ideal. Great as a secondary one, but like with links between Nautilus and Corsica the links should ideally be with full sims of water and straight linden access to easy sailing areas (eg the sea of moles on the west of Corsica and the East access route links with quite a lot of sailable sims). The only real issue with linking the potential route from Atanua to the South Eastern side of Heterocera would be the route ways around Sphinx, they are at an angle and in places too shallow for boats with a keel. Ideally a few homesteads south of there could be added to make the link up with the ANWR for boats of all sizes.

Edited by Aethelwine

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38 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

1. Not if the linkage with Sansara is with the ANWR, on to Bay City and Bay of Space Pigs.

Oh yes but you mentioned East River Community too so that's what I focused on. Essentially the waters around Sansara is split in two, the eastern part extending from the Sea of Fables to Bevel and the western part with ANWR, Bay City and Bay of Space Pigs. There is a passage across the snowlands but it's not an easy one.

But any connection from Bay City to Satori will have to go through the eastern waterways no matter how you look at it so that's a separate issue and not relevant to the question where the connection between the continents should be.

 

38 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

we might be talking at cross purposes, the Carlisle route is much better at the moment but still has a parcel with a banline at the north end

The protected waterways around the islands of east Sansara are rather narrow, no doubt about that. To some that's part of the fun - more of a navigation challenge than straight sailing across open water. Not to everybody's taste though.

 

38 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

and entrance to the river system there that extends over the waterway.

Sssshhhh! That's East River Community's port! :P

 

38 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I just don't think an intercontinental route to that area, at least not as a sole linkage would be ideal. Great as a secondary one, but like with links between Nautilus and Corsica the links should ideally be with full sims of water and straight linden access to easy sailing areas

I'm all for a line of water sims from ANWR/Cyclops and eastwards along the coast. But... ummm... that line would lead straight to Bevel you know. ;)

Edited by ChinRey

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This connection is one of many possibilities, this one requiring 90 regions added and 0 region moves, connecting at navigable areas on both continent clusters while making use of several seemingly unused Linden Regions.

5b1f3453962a7_SimplestRegionConnection.thumb.png.0e190cba01697d7c584efc36d98c33cf.png

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2 hours ago, Christi Charron said:

This connection is one of many possibilities, this one requiring 90 regions added and 0 region moves, connecting at navigable areas on both continent clusters while making use of several seemingly unused Linden Regions.

5b1f3453962a7_SimplestRegionConnection.thumb.png.0e190cba01697d7c584efc36d98c33cf.png

Our first tangible proposal with a visual map example :).  Critically speaking though, it's not very sailing friendly. I would suggest trying to connect to the Euxoa region, after routing north of the Torley and Here regions, and then heading south before a west turn to meet with Euxoa. If LL is going to use this many sims to build a channel, the path of least resistance is worth using a dozen more or so.

Like you said though, plenty of possibilities !

Edited by Trista Banx

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2 hours ago, Christi Charron said:

This connection is one of many possibilities, this one requiring 90 regions added and 0 region moves, connecting at navigable areas on both continent clusters while making use of several seemingly unused Linden Regions.

5b1f3453962a7_SimplestRegionConnection.thumb.png.0e190cba01697d7c584efc36d98c33cf.png

Those regions arent unused, its LL's sample template regions for when you buy a new estate, you can pick from a list which you want, they make your new sim and copy those templates in on it

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17 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

stop thinking you will get it for free ..

Start a group, collect tier donations, and see how many you really are able to maintain and keep with the fangroup.

nobody is asking for anything for free. We are paying customers. If someone in this discussion has a basic membership and does not own or rent any land, then yes you could make a case against them posting an opinion here.... but they will benefit as well. This is about a grid enhancement that will benefit everyone that uses SL. It's not about a fan group for the groups personal use. I know some of the people that are involved in this discussion, and they have spent way more than I have to have a legitimate seat at this table of opinion. We've payed for plenty. We are, to some degree, share holders in SL that are asking the board of directors for a positive change. Nothing is free. LL makes in excess of 70 million a year from SL. They can afford to connect the continents if they want to. Our goal is simply to convince them that it's a good idea for all parties concerned.

Edited by Trista Banx
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On the other hand shifting the continents there are much fewer homesteads required to make the linkage.

The yellow indicates new sims, It would be great to have more around Satori to make it fully circumnavigable, I don't think it would need that many.

 

sansara connection.jpg

Edited by Aethelwine

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It may be a bit off topic, but imagine the possibilities if poor lonely Jeogeot was moved over to the blank space south-east of Satori? They fit together very nicely. I'm sure economics would rule out the ocean between the two being made sailable, but if they were connected at both ends and the coastline was sailable it would be a very nice marriage for little cost.

Just dreaming, that's all. -_-

Screenshot_2018-06-12_10-48-29.thumb.png.3337f1413a8d384994f864c61d4c4ee3.png

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29 minutes ago, angeoco said:

It may be a bit off topic, but imagine the possibilities if poor lonely Jeogeot was moved over to the blank space south-east of Satori? They fit together very nicely. I'm sure economics would rule out the ocean between the two being made sailable, but if they were connected at both ends and the coastline was sailable it would be a very nice marriage for little cost.

Just dreaming, that's all. -_-

From a plate-tectonics standpoint that's quite good looking. Now try fitting in the Heterocetera/Sansara mass to the right of the Satori/Nautilus/Corsica/Gaeta mass. We think of them being far apart, but if you look at the traditional schoolroom map of the Earth you think that Russia is far away from Alaska when they're practically touching.

(Of course this is all blasphemy because the only acceptable way of connecting the continents is a 90-region umbilical cord that will require constant repetitive tacking in a sailboat and will be blocked if any one of those regions gets out of sync with its neighbors. Apparently the goal is to recreate the madness that afflicted old sailors during long voyages...)

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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5 hours ago, IceCold Skytower said:

Those regions arent unused, its LL's sample template regions for when you buy a new estate, you can pick from a list which you want, they make your new sim and copy those templates in on it

And the line of "unused" region streching northwards, is an extension to the Linden VIllage, the Lindens' own private playground. They may or may not be willing to allow private regions connected to it but in either case, it's a narrow passage through Longfellow and Derby and there's nothing to gain from it if the Linden Estates Services sims can't be used.

Here's a slightly modified version, bypassing the Estate Services sims, connecting to the existing northern waterway (apart fromt hat blasted 4 m lohn stretch at Langdale) and still only requiring 93 sims:

5b1fab01d7291_NortheastPassageProposal.png.877285f4195c3f2b24c13831ae5363bc.png

It could have been shortened to 92 if it wasn't for that Heartless Sim.

 

25 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Of course this is all blasphemy...

I can only speak for myself but I agree with you in principle, the continents really ought to have been placed closer together. Today it would require relocation of 5-10% of the regions on the grid though and I doubt that's a realistic option. One "light" alternative there though, would be to relocate the Sharp Continent to help bridge the gap between Sansara and Jaegeot.

 

On 10.6.2018 at 10:06 AM, MeesterP said:

Examples of hypothetical channels (for sake of argument):

1) Sailable channel from Atanua sim (Satori)  to Odezia sim (Heterocera): about 80 to 90 sims

2) Flyable channel from Graybar sim (South tip of Satori) to Nordica sim (NE Sansara): about 65 to 70 sims

I didn't notice this reply until now. Sorry.

Atanua-to-Odezia would requrie a bit more than 90 sims. Not much more but certainly more than a connection from nrtheast Sansara. It's the same route most of the way, without the north-south extension but with a considerably longer east-west stretch.

Nordica is behind the Ban Belt. You'd have to traverse eight sims with mostly hostile natives to get there.

 

On 10.6.2018 at 1:49 AM, Geneer Gynoid said:

These ARE ideas from paying customers. No-one supporting this idea expects anything for free,

You still need active support from Linden Lab though. The max number of regions they allow for a CLPP estate is still 30. they'll have to agree to make an exception from that rule and there are probably other parts of the CLPP that are tricky too. If you apply now, there is a good chance they'll just take your 500 dollar application fee and tell you no.

 

 

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12 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Yes but that's not realistic between the islands of Sansara. There are too many bridges everywhere.

 

I wouldn't know. I never tried that route because:

That is not correct. There is a protected waterway going all the way from Port Langdale through Carlisle, and Honister to Kirkstone and onwards to the Sea of Fables.

The only place you have to cross private land sea is a 4 m(!) long and 32 m wide stretch at Langdale.

Ideally LL should take over those 128 m2 and make it an official part of the waterway. But since they won't, I'm absolutely 100% sure the current owner will keep it open as long as she owns it and be happy to donate it to the Connect the Continents group if she ever leaves. There are two reasons why I'm so certain about that. One is that the owner has public ports with public rez zones, GTFO hubs and even an SLCG substation all around the Consiton island so she needs to keep the passage open to the public. The other reason is that she's my alt.

There's a protected river running from Whinlatter to Bleaberry Tarn that's fairly straight and deep and the only bridges are high ones in East River. The channel isn't marked very well now; realistically you'd want to take on a pilot anywhere in east Sansara though.

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3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

There's a protected river running from Whinlatter to Bleaberry Tarn that's fairly straight and deep and the only bridges are high ones in East River.

Aww, now you got me dreaming, Theresa. It would only take four sims to get around the waterway blocks between Bleaberry Tarn and Torver and then only one of the Torver water parcels people keep gettign tired of and put of for sale all the time to connect the northeast and middle east Sansara waterways.

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@ChinRey you mentioned the difficulty getting from the sea of fables set of waterways to those on the bay city side. Currently at least the route out the SW corner of Mare Secondus is pretty good for all but the very largest ships

 

Edited by Aethelwine

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Lets put this topic in the top priorities of LL, maybe they never saw it but Second Life can be a wonderful simulator for many activities if well managed.

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On 10/06/2018 at 11:46 PM, foneco Zuzu said:

I really simply would prefer that LL would enforce a more strict policy to disable ban lines on regions that can affect the normal access to their protected places.

Sometimes is not the lack of regions but the fact that some owners use ban lines at will without realizing or on purpose to screw others.

Ban lines are a pain, but you can detect them.  But not half as much as undetectable zero-delay TP-home security orbs.  Anyone who uses one of those (and lots of you do) deserves being sent to RL, with no hope of parole.

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18 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

Currently at least the route out the SW corner of Mare Secondus is pretty good for all but the very largest ships

Isn't Mare Secundus part of the Eastern waters? If you can get to there from ANWR, there's no problems at all. There is a protected waterway between Jasckle and Langdale. It's  a nice route with friendly natives too, decent looking low lag environment all the way and there hasn't been a water intercepting ban line or security orb in sight since LL agreed to remove the ones around their empty "nature preserve". The only problem I've ever had there was when somebody held a party so crowded it filled a sim to capacity but that isn't likely to happen every decade.

I don't think the inner waterways of Sansara will ever be suitable for large ships or boats. Even if there were no ban lines or blocked waters there, the channels between the islands would still be too narrow and the quantity and variety of builds on the land around will add too much background lag for heavy boats to handle. It's a very different sailign experience from the open waters of Blake Sea but it can be a very enjoyable if you use the right equipment - something small that handles sim crossings excpetionally well - and if you see the navigation challenges as part of the fun, not as a distraction. When I go there, I usually choose a Rubber Bunny hovercraft or katamaran for speed or one of Miccie Inkpen's lovely jolly boats if I want to take it slow and easy and watch the scene. Even my beloved Garda Tristar - not a particularly big or hevay boat at all - is a bit too much. It works but it's not ideal.

 

Edited by ChinRey

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9 hours ago, foneco Zuzu said:

Lets put this topic in the top priorities of LL,

count the number of repliers here, and think agian if LL will take this as "top priority"   (20)

Of course it will make SL more suiting for travelers, but is that worth all the costs involved?

For sure not when you hear here nearly nobody really jumps in and yells "i buy you 50 sims to connect" .. and to the point where i suggested "open a group and see where donated tier you brings" ...also a big silence.
Remember a big line that always runs through SL : YOUR world YOUR imagination, and SL is hosted by LL, but made by the residents.
The Blake sea is mentioned several times, but keep in mind ALL of the resident contribution of private regions is PAID by those same residents. LL made it possible, but that's about it.

I may sound like i'm against it, but i'm not. But keep it a bit real, travelers are perhaps a big group, bust still a relatively small amount on the total users... is it really needed to redesign the grid, move about 30% of the sims, with all risks ( you all know big changes ... if something can go wrong, it mostl likely will...)

Ik think a more advanced teleporting system has more chance to be implied.

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31 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

count the number of repliers here, and think agian if LL will take this as "top priority"   (20)

Considering that the forums users are only a tiny fraction of the SL population, I'd say the response has been overwhelming. And then count the number of repliers who don't usually post at the forum. I don't actually think I've ever seen this many new contributors in a single thread before.

But you do have a point of course. I think it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: SL is not very interesting to travellers/explorers because LL has never really tried to make it interesting to travellers/explorers. And LL has never really tried to make it interesting to travellers/explorers because SL is not very interesting to travellers/explorers.

It may be too late to do anything about it now. LL squandered the opportunity to make SL a true virtual world long ago. When was the last time LL showed more than a token interest in the geographical continuity of SL? It must have been long before I joined.

Still, if we can manage to at least surpress their apathy enough that they are willing to allow a private initiative, it may work.

Most of the people who came to SL to explore the wonders of a virtual world probably left long ago because they never got what they expected and were promised and the chances of recruiting significant numbers of new users to anything in SL is minute. But seeing the responses to this thread, I'm beginning to believe there may be enough of them still holding on that it's worth a try.

 

Edited by ChinRey

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23 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

 it's worth a try.

yes, i agree, but hope you also have to agree, it has to be a lot more than just the usual threads: "i want access over your land and i want it now" level.

Start contributing sims and start a real action to connect as they did to the Blake regions. BUT... contribution = $  .. and there it goes totally off road, nobody is at home.

The Blake sea is what it is because of the private investments, i think that's needed here too, and who here is ready to contribute to that plan? ...make a list....

Of course i seen the remark "we are paying members"... but that doesn't mean LL have to give free access to hundreds of sims for just sailing or flying.

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58 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Start contributing sims and start a real action to connect as they did to the Blake regions. BUT... contribution = $  .. and there it goes totally off road, nobody is at home.

Me? I've spent thousands of dollars I can't really afford and countless hours of work trying to make the Northeast HLD sims as open, welcoming and enjoyable to sailors and other visitors as possible. I will keep doing so for as long as I can afford it even though there is really nothing in it for me personally.

I've paid my dues and more - much more. I do not think anybody at LL or in SL have any right to expect or demand anything from me. I also own the only patch of private land that can't be avoided along the shortest route between Bay City and Blake Sea. As I've already said, I will keep that patch open for as I long as I own it and I'll be happy to let Linden Lab or the Connect the Continents group take over provided they can guarantee they will always keep it open for sailors.

But of course, very few people are as stupid as me. Most people want something in return for the money they spend. I have two ideas:

1. Sim names. Let people have an open space sim named after them if they agree to pay the cost. Maybe a discreet plaque or something crediting the benefactor too. Of course, you'd have to be a bit selective and not accept any sim name just for the money but it should still be possible to cover the expenses for quite a few sims that way.

2. Tropical islands. There has always been a demand for that in SL. When LL noticed, they gave us ... the Snowlands. FairChang was recently relocated and connected to Satori but apart from that I don't think there are any tropical island sims connected to mainland. The result is that people keep trying to wrestle mainland plots into themes their landscaping and ground textures are marvelously unsuitable for. That ought to be a very interesting niche market and you can easily put two or even four fair sized islands on a homestead sim and still have plenty of room for navigable open water.

Edited by ChinRey

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is there anyone with some technical knowledge that could explain why the continents (and other private nearby sims) can't simply be moved?

I know each sim has it's own world grid reference, which obviously would need to be changed, and I realise that's a lot of sims, but is there anything else that stops LL simply moving entire continents?

From a cost perspective, if the continents can be moved, surely the easiest way to achieve this is to attach both Sansara and Jeogeot continents to Gaeta, which is basically totally surrounded by linden water. Sansara could be joined to the north-east of Gaeta via a small channel going south from the New Port sim.

For Jeogeot, joining the "gulf" at Sacrelle sim to the south-eastern corner of Gaeta at Hautala could again be achieved via only a small channel.

The number of sims needed to achieve this would be so small that i am sure the combined sailing/flying communities would likely be able to fund this themselves, especially if a few of those sims were partially used as large vendor malls (think Hollywood airport but only occupying half the sim).

Other than joining the continents like this, I have to sort of agree with Alwin, there just seems too much cost for LL for relatively little benefit. I don't think long time sailors and aviators in SL realise that they are still a relatively small community compared to some others. Unfortunately I'd also point out that 4 continents ARE already joined, and I'm fairly certain that there isn't that much inter-continental travel now,  in fact I wouldn't be surprised if only a dozen or so people in SL currently flew or sailed from Satori to Gaeta on a regular basis.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for it to happen, but can't help but think that LL will baulk at this unless the financial outlay is minimal.

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