The hate on child avatars?

[Adams Scarmon]

Hey everyone!

 

I'm not a child avatar but some of my friends are.

Before i befriended them I was so unaware of this  but now it has become clear to me I think its something i have to address to the community.

The ''hate'' on child avatars is real in SL.

 

Every so often I pop to a sim (Any rating) and I get welcomed in big capitals ''NO CHILD AVIES ALLOWED"' or ''CHILD AVIES INSTANT BAN''

I am trying to wonder why this is. Is it because all people that play child avatars are perverts and molestors?

 

or...

... is it the FEAR drilled into us by Linden Lab that sims can be potentially CLOSED when inappropriate actions involving a child avatars are reported?

There literally is NO reason half of the time to ban or eject a child avatar. Theres no ''porn'' ont he sim or no ''adult items''. INfact some sims are rated PG and M, not even A.

 

So can someone tell me (preferably a sim owner) WHY you dont welcome child avatars and if this is justified in your eyes.

[Zeta Vandyke]

I don't welcome them on my land because I do have an adult sim. Other than that I have no hate for them or act towards them, other than maybe frowning upon them...

[Chaser Zaks]

I don't hate child avatars, but I dislike it when they(about maybe half of em?) feel entitled to go where they please.

Usually people who put up "no child avatars" in Sims that seem to have no need for banning child avatars have had a bad run in with them in the past, be it them going to an adult sim and everyone started getting panicky and overly cautious about doing stuff, or they have just met those who don't understand that not every time is RP time(constantly baby talking in OOC). It can be cute for occasion goofing off in OOC but not every sentence.

Personally, my parcel has a no child avatar policy because of the contents on it. But I do moderate a sim that is a hangout of sorts, which while adult content takes place on there, as long as they are not in the vecinity of it, I don't mind them. If they start doing adult stuff or get near it, then I kick them with my left boot shoved into my right boot. But I have only had to do this once, a lot  of the  seem to understand how much of a big deal it is when being a child avatar and not getting near adult stuff.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Chaser Zaks

[BilliJo Aldrin]

17 minutes ago, Adams Scarmon said:

Hey everyone!

 

I'm not a child avatar but some of my friends are.

Before i befriended them I was so unaware of this  but now it has become clear to me I think its something i have to address to the community.

The ''hate'' on child avatars is real in SL.

 

Every so often I pop to a sim (Any rating) and I get welcomed in big capitals ''NO CHILD AVIES ALLOWED"' or ''CHILD AVIES INSTANT BAN''

I am trying to wonder why this is. Is it because all people that play child avatars are perverts and molestors?

 

or...

... is it the FEAR drilled into us by Linden Lab that sims can be potentially CLOSED when inappropriate actions involving a child avatars are reported?

There literally is NO reason half of the time to ban or eject a child avatar. Theres no ''porn'' ont he sim or no ''adult items''. INfact some sims are rated PG and M, not even A.

 

So can someone tell me (preferably a sim owner) WHY you dont welcome child avatars and if this is justified in your eyes.

i have sex beds on my property i dont want kids there

end of story

[Adams Scarmon]

7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

i have sex beds on my property i dont want kids there

end of story

Very logic and well eleborated argument

 

But yeah from my experience it often seems sim owners have a ''better safe than sorry'' policy in place. Where they unwelcome/ban/eject child avatars JUST Because of who they are. This borders very close to discrimination (not saying it is).

 

I FULLY understand and agree when a child avatar is for example using a sex bed (I dont care why, 0% tolerance) that you eject and ban them. But when they are just hanging out? Or are there to shop? Or visit friends? I dont see the harm at all.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Adams Scarmon said:

Very logic and well eleborated argument

 

But yeah from my experience it often seems sim owners have a ''better safe than sorry'' policy in place. Where they unwelcome/ban/eject child avatars JUST Because of who they are. This borders very close to discrimination (not saying it is).

 

I FULLY understand and agree when a child avatar is for example using a sex bed (I dont care why, 0% tolerance) that you eject and ban them. But when they are just hanging out? Or are there to shop? Or visit friends? I dont see the harm at all.

i dont wish my place to be a hangout for kids. Who is there for them to hang out with since i dont allow kids?

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

one example of why i don't like kids. i was visiting my sister while her brat was there. the brat imed me and said "i can see a sliver of the top of your nipples you better cover up because im a kid"

i thought you little s**t you had to cam really close to see that.

and for the record their rp is not my rp

[BilliJo Aldrin]

one time i did rp to a kid, i was in a store and some kid was running back and forth along the countertops. i said were is that kids mother. the mother proceeded to scream obscenities at me

[Cindy Evanier]

If its adult land, like mine,  they have no reason to be there. There is adult stuff everywhere and  people using it.    I am not going to take any chances, nor do I have time to be a nanny for them.

It goes down the the old rule, you pay for the land, you make the rules.  Lots of places have rules about who is and isn't welcome on their land.  Vampires, escorts child avi's, non human avi's. those with weapons.  I remember years ago being suddenly booted from a club because *gasp horror*  I have a collar.    Some child avatars turn up at places as a form a griefing too, just to see how far they can push it then cry  boo hoo  this place is mean and discriminating.    I have also been shopping places and had a kid follow me around begging me to be their mother... NO!

All that said I have nothing against child avi's  they are just not part of my SL

[Adams Scarmon]

9 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

one example of why i don't like kids. i was visiting my sister while her brat was there. the brat imed me and said "i can see a sliver of the top of your nipples you better cover up because im a kid"

i thought you little s**t you had to cam really close to see that.

and for the record their rp is not my rp

oh wow yes i totally understand this.

I'd be annoyed by it too tbh.

[KanryDrago]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

one example of why i don't like kids. i was visiting my sister while her brat was there. the brat imed me and said "i can see a sliver of the top of your nipples you better cover up because im a kid"

i thought you little s**t you had to cam really close to see that.

and for the record their rp is not my rp

It is exactly this. Where child avi's are they change the way you can behave, the way you can dress etc. All my interactions with child avi's (thankfully few) have been fairly negative where you have been told off for how you are dressed or the content of what you are saying because child avi's. I goto sl to relax not be bound to change my behaviour because child avi's.

Even apart from this I find the ridiculous baby talk they all seem to engage in nauseating. A sim which has a regular child avi prescence is one which I dont visit on the whole. This I suspect is why a lot of sims have a no child avi rule. Their presence puts others off visiting and using the sim.

I don't hate child avi's I just prefer not to be around them. I have heard a lot of people say the same. 

[Talligurl]

I ran into a "kid" once. He told me a story about how his Mom had to work, and he was going to see his aunt, and could I please watch him till she picked him up. I thought how cute and played along, up until the point I realized he wanted to pick me up. I imagine if this happens enough sim owners would just start banning them.

[sirhc DeSantis]

Very easy. I want to have fun. All you kiddie avs in places of fun are out to provoke ARs

ERGO banned

Same as clickbait.

 

 

[Klytyna]

53 minutes ago, Adams Scarmon said:

The ''hate'' on child avatars is real in SL.

And it is well deserved...

...

Me: Sorry short round, no kreepy kid paedo-bait avis allowed on this A-Rated sim

Kreepy the Kid: But...Bit... I has a dumocratic rite unda the LL ToS to be on da sim dress like a nekkid 8 yr old wid a buttplug, u cant ban meh, I no mah rites, neway i not a kreepy kid, I r a hobbits cos i haz wear footwigs so you can stuf ur sim rules up ur ass cos I r entitled and further moar i jus wanna say...

Me: Please accept this GENEROUS application of the High Velocity Thighboot Enema of Instant and Permanent Ban-Jection... KTHXBAI! *puntkick*

Kreepy ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH *whiiiiiiiiiizzzzzz\z* *splash*

...

Empirical observation shows that the majority will argue and whine until 59 of their last 60 seconds have expired then wear an adult avi, with the minority being equally divided between "59 seconds of whine and leave" and "59 seconds of whine and scream in agony as they are launched".

Personally, I'd ban kreepy kids from all non G rated sims, auytomatically, by means of a no mod sim rating detection script in their no mod kreepy kid avis, made by licenced kreepy kid vendors under a scheme similar to LL's skill gaming policy.

Make kreepy kid products withouttyhe official LL Auto tp off non g-rated sims" script, and you lose your kreepy kid vendors licence. Sell kreepy kid products without a licence, instant IP/Mac ban.

But hey! That's just my personal opinion based on nearly 6 years of observing the little *******  in SL.  
 

[Adams Scarmon]

2 hours ago, Klytyna said:

And it is well deserved...

...

Me: Sorry short round, no kreepy kid paedo-bait avis allowed on this A-Rated sim

Kreepy the Kid: But...Bit... I has a dumocratic rite unda the LL ToS to be on da sim dress like a nekkid 8 yr old wid a buttplug, u cant ban meh, I no mah rites, neway i not a kreepy kid, I r a hobbits cos i haz wear footwigs so you can stuf ur sim rules up ur ass cos I r entitled and further moar i jus wanna say...

Me: Please accept this GENEROUS application of the High Velocity Thighboot Enema of Instant and Permanent Ban-Jection... KTHXBAI! *puntkick*

Kreepy ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH *whiiiiiiiiiizzzzzz\z* *splash*

...

Empirical observation shows that the majority will argue and whine until 59 of their last 60 seconds have expired then wear an adult avi, with the minority being equally divided between "59 seconds of whine and leave" and "59 seconds of whine and scream in agony as they are launched".

Personally, I'd ban kreepy kids from all non G rated sims, auytomatically, by means of a no mod sim rating detection script in their no mod kreepy kid avis, made by licenced kreepy kid vendors under a scheme similar to LL's skill gaming policy.

Make kreepy kid products withouttyhe official LL Auto tp off non g-rated sims" script, and you lose your kreepy kid vendors licence. Sell kreepy kid products without a licence, instant IP/Mac ban.

But hey! That's just my personal opinion based on nearly 6 years of observing the little *******  in SL.  
 

You are generalizing a lot here..

Anyway... I understand you all have to deal with annnoying children IRL and that parents really NEED a break from their children and hop on SL.

 

Its a 2way street indeed. However I dont consider a baby avatar as a child avie. The babies are annoying lol.

[Adams Scarmon]

2 hours ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

Very easy. I want to have fun. All you kiddie avs in places of fun are out to provoke ARs

ERGO banned

Same as clickbait.

If by fun you mean sex then ofcourse i agree.

No child avatar should be involved in any sexual activity at all.

 

But if you mean fun as in a themepark, hunt or some other festival then it is unfair to ban child avatars just because you dont like their avie lol.

2 hours ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

 

 

 

[Janet Voxel]

I’m leery of kid avatars because they’re a little creepy.

1) When you see a child avi, your natural reaction is to treat them like....a child. They know this and some people play on this. Then they do things that are decidedly unchildlike.

2) You know they aren’t a child. I’ve had a child before and it can be fun. You know they’re going to do and say unexpected things and that’s fun. Somewhere in the back of your mind you’re thinking “why is this adult doing this? And what are they getting out of it?” That saying and doing unchildlike things comes into play again.

 

[Adams Scarmon]

2 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

I’m leery of kid avatars because they’re a little creepy.

1) When you see a child avi, your natural reaction is to treat them like....a child. They know this and some people play on this. Then they do things that are decidedly unchildlike.

Unchildlike such as sex? (then Ia gree with you).

2) You know they aren’t a child. I’ve had a child before and it can be fun. You know they’re going to do and say unexpected things and that’s fun. Somewhere in the back of your mind you’re thinking “why is this adult doing this? And what are they getting out of it?” That saying and doing unchildlike things comes into play again.

Maybe they had a bad RL childhood? No mother.. kicked out? Could be many reasons. Why would an adult be one of those bimbos with big hooters and oversized lips? We dont know and quite frankly we shouldnt care about their reasons. Its in our nature to judge, I know. But in SL we have the chance to create a nice, safe community where nobody is being excluded

 

[Cindy Evanier]

8 minutes ago, Adams Scarmon said:

I know. But in SL we have the chance to create a nice, safe community where nobody is being excluded

Of course but a child would be excluded from a strip club in RL so why do the child avi's cry discrimination when they get excluded from them in SL.  The safe community is in the G rated sims 

[Adams Scarmon]

Just now, Cindy Evanier said:

Of course but a child would be excluded from a strip club in RL so why do the child avi's cry discrimination when they get excluded from them in SL.  The safe community is in the G rated sims 

I agree with that.

Same things apply of course.

[norajulian]

This is not a new issue, by any means, and I'm sure it will continue to be an issue as long as people exist as a whole. The short of it is that there are people who role-play as "children" and purposely go to certain adult places to engage in inappropriate adult activities, and have thusly "ruined it" for other folks who genuinely want to role-play as kidlets in the game and do child things. There is an overall wariness in the human persona regarding anything "different" - and some role-plays just make people feel uncomfortable. Here in secondlife, you can be WHATEVER and whomever you'd like to be. Many of us log in as adult, human beings, who dress similarly to how we would in RL and engage in activities that we might engage in RL. 

There are some folks, however, who take advantage of the freedom of expression. They participate in role-plays of all sizes, genders, species, ages, etc, etc. And there is certainly nothing wrong with that at all - but some people cannot understand the "why" of it. Why would you WANT to do this, when you could do this instead? Why would you WANT to be this age, when you are actually /this/ age, etc, etc. The BIGGEST hurdle between child avatars and the general SL population is that there is a deep rooted understanding (and justly so), that engaging in adult activities with children is illegal and immoral, be it RL or SL. Additionally, I think it's fair to say that there is a similar regard to "furries" - even in the last couple of days there have been posts made that have been demeaning to people who choose to live their SL as a furry, because of that deep routed belief (again, just), that (b-word with animals that SL muted) is immoral, etc. 

You hear mostly about the BAD aspects of those "inappropriate child avatars" because that is generally the word that is spread throughout the clubs and the adult meeting places, etc. Most family RP, including children, is a small, close knit community and they don't tend to venture far from where they live because they have been greeted with such opposition and understand that not everyone will understand their chosen form of RP, even in its purest form. Typically, the "parents" don't go out "clubbing" all the time and you won't find them hanging out at brothels or what have you because, again, that "other" world. There are exceptions, naturally, but as long as they are an adult avvie, there isn't a problem.  There are those within the family RP community that are angry that they aren't allowed in certain places, but those places are moderately rated, not adult, and with no rhyme or reason as to why, other than the landowner "doesn't like them". However, we rent our land so that we can apply our own rules, and things must be taken with a grain of salt. 

I'd only like to close with this: I do RP as a "mother" and have since my rezz date. I do have two RP daughters, one of them is a toddleedoo (those tiny little munchkin-avatars) and has been with me as my daughter for over 4 years now. My partner and I also have a daughter who RPs as a teenager. I've been in the "family community" for nearly 7 years and have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of child avatars. This will never not be a topic, because it will ALWAYS exist, as mentioned earlier. Perhaps suggest to your friends that maybe they have better places to go beyond places that don't allow them? SL is a very big place and has many, many options that are family friendly and there will never be any doubt of your welcome. I assure you - these places aren't hard to find, by any means. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by norajulian

[Innula Zenovka]

3 hours ago, Adams Scarmon said:

Very logic and well eleborated argument

 

But yeah from my experience it often seems sim owners have a ''better safe than sorry'' policy in place. Where they unwelcome/ban/eject child avatars JUST Because of who they are. This borders very close to discrimination (not saying it is).

 

I FULLY understand and agree when a child avatar is for example using a sex bed (I dont care why, 0% tolerance) that you eject and ban them. But when they are just hanging out? Or are there to shop? Or visit friends? I dont see the harm at all.

The two main concerns, I think, are 

• landowners are concerned that they may have problems if child avatars are spotted near sex beds or other "adult" stuff
• in a public adult venue, the presence of child avatars makes regular visitors uncomfortable.

More generally, many people object to child avatars who attempt, uninvited, to involve them in their role-play, in the same way they object to folks who impose themselves on perfect strangers by pretending to be vampires or visitors from Gor and insisting on being treated as such.   If I wanted to RP being menaced by vampires or ordered about by Gorean Masters, I'd go to a vampire or Gorean region to engage in that RP; I take a similar attitude to children.

Having said that, so long as it's not an adult region and so long as they are seen and not heard, I have no particular objection to child avatars in moderation.

[Lucia Nightfire]

There's one thing that I remember from child avatars during my time of operating sandboxes.

The incessant pacifier sucking sounds drive every adult in 100m distance utterly insane.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Lucia Nightfire

[NevaehHeartstrings]

5 hours ago, Adams Scarmon said:

So can someone tell me (preferably a sim owner) WHY you dont welcome child avatars and if this is justified in your eyes.

As a former sim owner of one of the most successful public sims pre-2015,  we averaged around 40k a day in 'real traffic' everyday for over a half decade so here are my thoughts.

See growing up in real life my parents were monsters with split personalities who fooled everyone in thinking they were great parents and all the issues i had came from someplace else..I remember the beatings daily from my father who was cruel and malice who really hated me & my sister..his idea of punishment was busting glass drink cups on the kitchen floor then making me do 500 jumping jacks in the pile of glass on the floor.. Even today I am unable to feel my back from all the punch's when he would pin me down and take both his fists pile driving into my backside( no bruises seen) until at some point I'd pass out.. even to this day sometimes I can still hear my sisters screams echo out of nowhere, her cries for him to stop trying to kill me, often I would remember looking up seeing her in terror crouching in the corner of room powerless against my attacker while she knew once he was done with me she was to be 'punished'

By the time I discovered Second Life my real life was destroyed by not only others but by myself never letting myself live, the with self hatred ruining everything, I had severe brain damage and all the symptoms of severe autism, I hated the real world often thinking how things would be better if I was dead and gone. everything was wrong my body, my thoughts, my family, my friends...in the end it left me feeling like I must be an alien that no one could understood with everyone being better off without me,  so much pain and so much darkness, in this world we stumble through.

But you know something, if you really take advantage of all the things in second life it can help change your life, it helped me grow overcoming many things and turn my real life around.. I found in second life it was OK to be me, it was OK to dream, to understand what a real friend is, To understand how to be a real friend, It has helped me overcome so many things in real life I would have never been able to face alone. It is OK to leave my heart wide open, I learned it was OK to laugh, To dream, To care about others, To let go of the hate and resentment that tied me down all those years.

So I can relate to child avatars and even myself had an alt now since closed who was a 5yr old anime girl with 9 tails that had the most adorable AO that always made her look even more happier, she lived on the mainland at a bus stop that was a retired safe hub even back then( back when it was really crowded with noobs) and she would cruise up and down the mainland roads in a large slick black Cadillac convertible often waving at everyone as she drove by them pretending she was a movie star..sometimes I would log another alt in to drive her around in a stretched limousine were we would cruise driving from one ground level  hot spot to another everytime I would roll the red carpet, logging in alts dressed as paparazzi with cameras using repeated gestures to make it look like a movie star has showed up...it kinda freaked some out it was fun back then .

Later running my own sims... the rules were yes even if Sims were adult rated then child avatars were permitted, this is allowed allowed under LL Terms of Service as a child avatar can go anyplace it wants .. There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary, in my old land they just were not allowed to use any equipment that had adult animations in them..to not be naked ..not engage in adult activities ..

I took a lot of crap from people trying to tell me how to run my sims, including them harassing child avatars in them under the false belief they are restricted from Adult Regions..as for others they can ban you from the region or parcel they pay for for any reason they want, but I bucked the trend after dealing with so many mad islanders obsessed with traffic numbers they would troll sims they thought competed with them.

Did I have child avatars troll the sims? yes... often they would voice being a complete jerk to others in the region getting banned by my alt..I ran a tight estate of eight regions knowing who was in a sim at any given time while knowing all chat at the landing areas, public areas of gathering,  griefing went both ways but most often it was stupid avatars pretending to not see the child avatar pushing them was the most common abuse to harass them, often had the same issue while wearing my petite avatar people liked to walk on me thinking it was funny often going full stupid with a quick chat comment like ' oh, Sorry I didn't see you down their LOL'

I understood back then why some people are child avatars, I've tried to have as much compassion as possible for them...but in the end parcel and region owners hold the cards..many people feel uncomfortable with them it breaks the fantasy they have.. second life is segregated in many places but those who pay the bills have the final say no matter what we think or feel.

In real life children have terrified me,  I've had to face the facts it was facing a part of my life were I know I'll never be be able to have my own children or a family.. I think being around some child avatars in Second Life helped me deal with that fear of the real ones, while also understanding many wearing those avatars might be fighting there own past of being deprived humanity as a child.

Real Child or Avatar Child I could not imagine being mean to them.. but on the flip side some see child avatars as invading their imaginary world..often those people are doing or engaging in things they would never do in real life..a child avatar brings parental instincts out in many of those in that situation, conflicting the personality side they express here often that is sexual, most not having a way to deal with it they eject the child avatar labeling them as a troll from the land.

Child Avatars are not alone often Furry Avatars are mistreated too..Often we have to not only face our own insecurities but those of others even in the digital world

Child Avatars have safe places they just have to understand Adult Avatars do too.. Why be in places were people are uncomfortable with or your unwelcome..you must follow every land owners rules or leave them...when people landed in my estate I made sure they knew my rules of all avatars are equal and would be treated that way, but other places had tougher rules often for reasons of importance to them so that should be respected.

Second Life is not a game, I play a few hours a day but I see it as an extension of my real life... I'm a new person now, different much , healed in mind, body and in the spirit because of being here in many ways in this world... maybe some child avatars are trying to get there too.

Edited December 2, 2017 by NevaehHeartstrings
Added Links -

[Tari Landar]

I have played a child av before, for a short while....So, I speak from experience, both As a child av(though that was years ago, lol), and as an adult av...

When I was in my child av, I stuck to places designed for them, places that were safe for me, if I were a real child, places I would let my real children go(yes, I have them) etc..Even as a kid av...most other kid avs bugged the ever living crap out of me. No six year olds don't actually talk like that, anyone that spends time around real children will understand their language skills...they're not all intellectually stunted like this(the vast majority, are not) in real life...so WHY in pray tell are they in sl? It really isn't cute, and annoys the crap out of me. It's cute when rl little kids are still developing their speech. Hell my oldest kiddo when she first started counting (around 1) would say one, tooooo, feee, four, fif, shicken, eigh, nine, TEN. And that was adorable to me....but an av in sl that is supposed to be "four, five, six, even eight" years old, talking like that....umm, yeah, nah, please go talk to someone else sweetie.  I'm not rude to them, but I will refuse to ickle speak, or listen to theirs. 

And THAT, in today's sl, is actually one of the biggest driving forces behind why many dislike child avs. Aside from the "folks change how they behave when kid avs are around" aspect, the mannerisms, and speech patterns *typically used(those that don't follow are an exception, not the rule) are the biggest driving force behind why folks dislike them so. If the kid community did a better job of aiding others that want to pretend to be kid avs and some "how to ensure you don't annoy half the grid in one fell swoop" best practices were given out..it would go a long way towards people being a bit more accepting.

Not everyone will, of course, and as landowners, it is their right to disallow whatever they want. I, personally, do NOT like seeing women, or men, walking around on leashes. Not only would I never do that, I don't like seeing it. When I last owned land, I had some games that I made available to the public, and would frequently get people bringing their "pets" and whatever other names they wanted to use, to the sim. These were games *I* paid for, that paid out to visitors of my land. I made a rule that I would give one warning, and after that, a boot and a ban, no second chances. It really is something that bothers me a great deal. I had very few other rules, and in fact even my home, furniture and other fun stuff was quite open on the land for people to use at their leisure, just because. But there are some things I refuse to tolerate, and that was one of them. I can't tell you how many irate IMs I'd received about it. I was, and always will, absolutely NOT going to change my policies, period. I don't care if you and your pet are dressed properly, or the nicest people on the planet. I don't want to see it, and my reasons for that are only important to me, and me alone. I don't allow it, period. 

So, yeah...their land, their rules, and it doesn't matter WHY they don't allow something, or someone, really. LL has deemed that they get to make the rules, and I abide by that, both as a landowner(when I am) as well as a guest on each and every sim I visit. Even when I used a kid avatar, I was careful in my mannerisms, speech, and my presence...and to do anything otherwise, is really idiotic(and only works to create evenmore of the "hate" you're describing). So...blame the kid avs that have come and gone for this :"hate", because it began with them.