Notes on the WelcomeHub

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Those same flaws that people have already stated in this thread as happening again.

 

If you are not in the mentor program now and have only heard from a handful of people that they had a bad experience (personally, I think they were overstepping) then you have no idea what is going on in the background or what they have planned.  I assume either there are no mentors on the forum or they don't want to identify themselves because it would be nice to hear their thoughts.  

I'm curious if anyone has had or saw a GOOD experience with a mentor or don't we want to talk about that.

 

[Drayke Newall]

22 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

 (personally, I think they were overstepping) then you have no idea what is going on in the background

What are you on about. Abnor even confirmed in this thread that one of the main issues of the past is already happening. Existing users stepping on the toes of Mentors and Mentors starting to get aggressive. I'll quote him:

That said, we have also heard complaints from Mentors as well who feel some residents enter the Welcome Hub more intent on undermining their efforts by "proving they know more" than actually helping new residents. 

Now whether that undermining is deliberate or just existing users trying to be helpful who knows (though is suspect it to be the latter based on the examples given here). What we do know though from the horses mouth is that a KEY reason why the old mentor system was abandoned is also happening now.

22 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I'm curious if anyone has had or saw a GOOD experience with a mentor or don't we want to talk about that.

You have heard their thoughts on the matters discussed in this thread, in an official stance none the less. That those existing helpful users mentioned in this thread as getting into an argument with the mentors is happening and they are annoyed due to apparently 'undermining their efforts by "proving they know more" than actually helping new residents'.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Alwin Alcott]

19 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

 I assume either there are no mentors on the forum or they don't want to identify themselves because it would be nice to hear their thoughts.  

No they shouldn't identify here. It would make it impossible to have a discussion about things that , possibly, go wrong or went wrong, it would get personal.
It would be more fair to know whát the mentors get instructed, and how their knowledge is examened. 
 

For example, when the "instruction" is watching a tutorial video on Youtube, en it's not examened it's useless. As is the short time between announcing and already running around Mentors.. what's exactly the instruction and teaching them to be mentors? I know of no serious CSR or other support that didn't take a lot longer to be functional.

As example of that last.. have a look at the Answers section ( in special before the rebuild a few years ago), or ask the ones that support/supported that section with their time. It took years to get all the knowlegde what's given there.

LL should have actively approaching people from there to sign up. And .. dedicated acounts to hide who the mentors are.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Kathlen Onyx]

22 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Existing users stepping on the toes of Mentors and Mentors starting to get aggressive. I'll quote him:

That said, we have also heard complaints from Mentors as well who feel some residents enter the Welcome Hub more intent on undermining their efforts by "proving they know more" than actually helping new residents. 

 

You need to learn to read better. Nowhere in that sentence you "quoted" said anything about mentors getting aggressive. Undermining is simply lessening the effectiveness, power, or ability of the mentors. 

 

24 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

No they shouldn't identify here. It would make it impossible to have a discussion about things that , possibly, go wrong or went wrong, it would get personal.
It would be more fair to know whát the mentors get instructed, and how their knowledge is examened. 
 

For example, when the "instruction" is watching a tutorial video on Youtube, en it's not examened it's useless. As is the short time between announcing and already running around Mentors.. what's exactly the instruction and teaching them to be mentors? I know of no serious CSR or other support that didn't take a lot longer to be functional.

As example of that last.. have a look at the Answers section ( in special before the rebuild a few years ago), or ask the ones that support/supported that section with their time. It took years to get all the knowlegde what's given there.

LL should have actively approaching people from there to sign up. And .. dedicated acounts to hide who the mentors are.

So it's okay to just trash them since they aren't here? Maybe that's why LL doesn't allow naming and shaming on the forum however, it's not that hard to find out who they are.  Just spend time at the welcome hub.

As far as what LL has trained the mentors in or what instructions they've given,  they are not obligated to disclose that information to you or any other person unless you are in the mentor program.  What makes you entitled that you feel they need to tell you?  

You are not a mentor nor are you a newbie.  TBH, this really should not be any concern to those that don't use it.  

Last point: If LL has determined that instructing a new person to watch a video that will help them acclimate to Second Life they may have a reason no one knows about. Newbies need to learn basic stuff like putting on and taking off clothes, how to open something they've bought, what is an AO and why should I get one.  How to fly, walk, sit etc. Where can you find places to go, i.e. Direct then to the destination guide. Are they premium. Go over to Bellisserian and show them what they can get with their membership. Show them how to search and join groups. Things like that. What they don't need is in-depth instruction on advance features in Second Life. If they want to be a part of Second Life they need to know where to find the information to learn it on their own.  Some will dive right into it and some will get totally frustrated and leave.  The mentor program should be to help people get started not teach them everything about SL.  

 

[CharotteWoods]

The greeters do talk to everyone but many come in all at once. They got a lot of info at the welcome center and a lot of  buttons to push.  They could add some portals like social island has take you to some  unexspected palces.   I did see thier a class room area at the new welcome center maybe this more for later. 

 

I know the greeters have a lot of people to talk to, maybe this would help too. I saw this greeter bot at a helping haven gateway  named sky. She wishes people a happy birthday if you need help. Find her along the path.  

:  Looking good,  Welcome to Helping Haven Gateway. Come here and let's chat a bit

 

°͜°:  It was your birthday yesterday!( she plays birthday song) 

 . If you like quizzes, ask to play my trivia quiz.

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by CharotteWoods

[Alwin Alcott]

14 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

You are not a mentor 

and who are you to state that? You have knowledge about who is? Seeing how you write you seem to have, or think you have.

IF i am, or am not a mentor, i'd never use that account here on the forums. (I don't want to ruin my grumpy status here)
So even if i am or not, you can't and won't know .. éver.

[Drayke Newall]

20 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

You need to learn to read better. Nowhere in that sentence you "quoted" said anything about mentors getting aggressive. Undermining is simply lessening the effectiveness, power, or ability of the mentors.

No, we just have two posts stating that they were 'aggressive' and 'rude' in front of new users or in IM's to existing users i.e. saying in local chat to 'not talk over them'. You also have a Mole coming in saying they have had issues of Mentors reporting 'residents' who in their opinion are undermining their position as a mentor.

I can read just fine and can also put two and two together.

All I know is it is clear to older residents and old mentors around back then that such fighting and reporting of users etc to LL was a huge problem and why the old mentors got a bad name as having a superiority complex with the 'mentor' tag going to their heads. Hence why, as I have only indicated in in this thread, this attitude needs to be stamped out from the start before it goes further otherwise it will fester.

ETA:

20 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

TBH, this really should not be any concern to those that don't use it.  

Hope Alwin doesn't mind me responding to this part you directed at him, but yes it does directly concern us regular users. We want to see SL improve, we want it to grow. Every aspect of that venture in improving Second Life, bringing in new users etc, is a concern to all residents even those that do not use the mentor program.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Kathlen Onyx]

[Drayke Newall]

15 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I'm not the one that keeps coming into a thread about 'notes on the welcomehub' and how to improve it and causing arguments because you feel no existing resident has a right to comment on the mentor system or welcomehub because in your own words 'we dont use it'.

Dont like the conversation here, dont read it. Dont like my posts about feedback and suggestions feel free to use the block command on me.

Good grief, how have these forums in the past few months come to a point where discussion about feedback or suggestions for improvement of SL cant be had because people just jump down peoples throats at the mere suggestion of feedback, suggestions, highlighting potential issues arising from the past, etc.

PS, I highly doubt any mentor will comment on such things in these forums. If it is anything like the old mentor group there were rules against such things.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Persephone Emerald]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:55 AM, Persephone Emerald said:

I've been to the new Welcome Hub a few times lately. For 3 out of 4 times there were at least 2 mentors. 2 out of 4 times Violet Mole was there too. One time there was no mentor, so I pushed the green button to call one, and a Mentor came to help the newbies.

[Positive Interaction # 1]

Before the mentor came, I started talking with one newbie guy who was riding a horse, wearing one of the starter avatars that includes a horse. He rode off, but I IMed him when the mentor came. Then he came back and got help from her.

[Positive Interaction #2]

One time, a newbie had a group tag for a free pen!s and didn't know how to get rid of it. The mentor talked with her in voice and helped her remove it. I talked with her in text too. She sent me a friend invite and I friended her.

[1 Negative Interaction snipped out]

[Neutral Comment]

Most of the time there are a couple to a few regular residents watching or talking with the newbies. A few of the "newbies" were apparently alts of older residents, based on their non-newbie avatars.

[Positive Interaction #3]

One time, one of the 3 or 4 mentors present was texting in local in Spanish and Portugues, trying to direct Spanish and Portuguese speaking newbies to help in their languages.

[Neutral Comments]

There were always some newbies just standing or hovering in the welcome area, apparently confused or trying to deal with some problem. Last time I was there, 2 of them were marked as afk.

The central region has always been full of green dots when I look at the map, but the regions surrounding are relatively empty.

1 hour ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

If you are not in the mentor program now and have only heard from a handful of people that they had a bad experience (personally, I think they were overstepping) then you have no idea what is going on in the background or what they have planned.  I assume either there are no mentors on the forum or they don't want to identify themselves because it would be nice to hear their thoughts.  

I'm curious if anyone has had or saw a GOOD experience with a mentor or don't we want to talk about 

Why don't you go to the Welcome Hub yourself and report back on what you see for yourself? 

Several people on this thread have said they haven't been there, yet they're still drawing conclusions about the Hub and the mentors.

I mentioned 1 negative Interaction with a mentor and 3 positive ones in this post, yet all you mention is the negative one. I said a mentor came and helped a newbie when the green button was pushed. I said a mentor helped a newbie remove a group tag they didn't want from over their head. I said one mentor was texting in Spanish and Portuguese to direct newbies to help in those languages.

In another post on this thread I said there was a mentor with Spanish in his profile, which I thought implied he would be helping Spanish speakers. I can only comment on what I saw or heard in local, but I think it's reasonable to assume that when there are multiple mentors and a Mole present, people are being helped. 

I saw a couple mentors who I recognized from posts in the original  thread about the mentor program. I saw one I know well from inworld and from her work in machinima. I'm not going to out them here, but they seemed to be doing their job as mentors just fine.

The one mentor who I thought was rude to me was not rude in local chat, as far as I could see. I did not see anyone acting rude or aggressively.

I don't know if a mentor tried to IM that one naked guy before he walked over the bridge into the Linden Home Demos area. Of course wardrobe malfunctions are going to happen with newbies. Some will also go naked on purpose. I didn't say that no one tried to help him, only that I spoke with him in IM, that he was then able to put on a dressed avatar, and that he then thanked me and said I was nice.

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Robberinthemuseum]

3 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Why don't you go to the Welcome Hub yourself and report back on what you see for yourself? 

Several people on this thread have said they haven't been there, yet they're still drawing conclusions about the Hub and the mentors.

I mentioned 1 negative Interaction with a mentor and 3 positive ones in this post, yet all you mention is the negative one. I said a mentor came and helped a newbie when the green button was pushed. I said a mentor helped a newbie remove a group tag they didn't want from over their head. I said one mentor was texting in Spanish and Portuguese to direct newbies to help in those languages.

In another post on this thread I said there was a mentor with Spanish in his profile, which I thought implied he would be helping Spanish speakers. I can only comment on what I saw or heard in local, but I think it's reasonable to assume that when there are multiple mentors and a Mole present, people are being helped. 

I saw a couple mentors who I recognized from posts in the thread about the mentor program. I saw one I know well from inworld and from her work in machinima. I'm not going to out them here, but they seemed to be doing their job as mentors just fine.

The one mentor who I thought was rude to me was not rude in local chat, as far as I could see. I did not see anyone acting rude or aggressively.

I don't know if a mentor tried to IM that one naked guy before he walked over the bridge into the Linden Home Demos area. Of course wardrobe malfunctions are going to happen with newbies. Some will also go naked on purpose. I didn't say that no one tried to help him, only that I spoke with him in IM, that he was then able to put on a dressed avatar, and that he then thanked me and said I was nice.

 

I went today and there were 2 mentors helping people. All the noobies were busy learning. I only imed one newbie who was standing still for a long time in front of me. (I was sitting down). She didn't know how to sit and then went to get something to eat and watch a youtube tutorial video while standing right in front of me 🤣. Creepy cute

[Drayke Newall]

9 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Why don't you go to the Welcome Hub yourself and report back on what you see for yourself? 

I've basically experienced the same the few times I've gone over there to have a look see. Generally other than the issues animats raised in his OP and a few other issues I raised in other threads that shan't be named, the Mentor's have been doing great.

If however there are territorial issues between existing users trying to help and mentors, then that, as I have said needs to be fixed, before it gets worse. This could be a simple fix for now as what the moles have been doing, moving the existing residents away from the area, but that cant be the long term fix as you will still get the issues Abnor raised about what mentors were complaining about. AKA what happened in the past at the welcome and help islands.

That has been my stance in all my posts, so dont know why people are assuming I am saying other things, such as to get rid of the mentors.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Marigold Devin]

Let's all just ask ourselves how we really would feel if we were official mentors and oldbies were coming along to observe or otherwise. It does appear to be rather undermining. 

Perhaps it would be best if oldbies just stayed away from the Welcome Hubs and left it to the official mentors. After all, there are plenty of people to advise here on the forums and in world in groups. 

[belindacarson]

59 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

Let's all just ask ourselves how we really would feel if we were official mentors and oldbies were coming along to observe or otherwise. It does appear to be rather undermining. 

Perhaps it would be best if oldbies just stayed away from the Welcome Hubs and left it to the official mentors. After all, there are plenty of people to advise here on the forums and in world in groups. 

Biggest problem I can see is specific people who post on the forums but are renowned for posting incorrect information.

 

If I was a mentor, that would be a nuisance as the mentors apparently have been trained to provide correct information, to see someone spouting incorrect information.

[Rowan Amore]

Just to clarify, the mentor who was giving wrong info was in no way aggressive to me or anyone so there was no reason to involve Viola.  To be fair to the mentor,.I'm not sure she actually understood what the new resident was asking and she was the only one in the actual orientation area.  She may have been doing more than one thing.  

Again, I didn't mention it to the mentor because for one, it's not my responsibility to educate LL's mentors and I didn't want to happen exactly what was mentioned, the mentor complaining to someone that I was "trying to.prove I knew more".

I only mentioned it, not to argue about anything or everything, because there is a way to give information without making someone else upset.  I answered the question, the resident thanked me, the end.

ETA...I was in the Social area of the Welcome area and not intent on helping but engaging with new residents.  

Edited July 17, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Paul Hexem]

2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Good grief, how have these forums in the past few months come to a point where discussion about feedback or suggestions for improvement of SL cant be had because people just jump down peoples throats at the mere suggestion of feedback, suggestions, highlighting potential issues arising from the past, etc.

It's always been this way any time anybody posts issues or suggestions on the forums.

The graphics shouldn't be improved, physics shouldn't be improved, lag shouldn't be improved, mentor program shouldn't be improved- SL isn't a game, we can't have game features like tutorials or user retention!

[Qie Niangao]

55 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

Let's all just ask ourselves how we really would feel if we were official mentors and oldbies were coming along to observe or otherwise. It does appear to be rather undermining. 

It's my impression that non-Mentor residents are genuinely trying to help—and the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Retention is the important business objective for the Lab, and it's high time to get onboarding right for once. I sure hope there's at least one Linden whose pay depends enough on the success of this program that they're sitting down and reviewing the transcript of all that transpired at Welcome Hubs every damned day. That's a fine time to identify any mistakes or missed opportunities, and if the Mentor program needs tuning, that Linden should discuss how to fix it with Viola and any other meta-Mentor Moles, with feedback to the Mentors.

If I were that Linden, I think I'd want non-Mentor residents to stay the heck out of it. However much those residents may actually help a newbie, they contaminate what I'd  measure about the program I'd be trying to manage, and how would I manage just the right non-Mentor to be available to offer such great help repeatably?

It's nice to help a newbie, but that may not advance the program that helps the next newbie.

[Luna Bliss]

We've all heard the stories about crucial factors in our decision to stay in SL. Often it was another resident befriending us, showing us the ropes.

This mentor program, in the way its being implemented, seems unnecessarily confusing. I would not like to land in a new place and experience such confusion. It's unclear who to ask for help, and if help is given it's for too short a time. Onboarding is a long process, and ongoing help would be best, and the help should come from one person who becomes familiar with a new resident through ongoing interaction and so can more easily assist them at the stuck places.

A way to simplify this, and to as closely as possible repeat the experience that many long-time SL'ers claim caused them to stay in SL initially, would be to assign each new person entering SL a specific mentor who would stay with them and be available to answer questions through IM's or meetings.

Upon landing, a new resident would receive a message "you have been assigned Mentor XXX to assist you on your beginning journey in SL. Should you wish to change your mentor at any time please contact XXXX Mole to assist you in finding a new mentor". (Since some mentors and new residents may not jive, giving the option to change should be included).

The assigned mentors would be auto-chosen from mentors stationed at the Welcome area during that time.

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 hours ago, Abnor Mole said:

Mentors are instructed they need to be professional at all times. If you have witnessed any who are not, a better course of action would be to inform Viola. (rather than talking about it on the forums where people like to argue about anything and everything)

That said, we have also heard complaints from Mentors as well who feel some residents enter the Welcome Hub more intent on undermining their efforts by "proving they know more" than actually helping new residents. 

Business as usual then. This is no different than how things used to be. It will eventually fail as well unless LL starts stepping pretty high.

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

no scheduling done for those volunteer's.

[Silent Mistwalker]

10 hours ago, animats said:

Once the employer starts controlling hours of work, volunteers become employees and have to be paid. AOL ran into this years ago. They settled with their "Community Leaders" for US$15 million.

The mentor program isn't going to work if there is no schedule whatsoever. That is one of the main reasons the program failed years ago.

[Luna Bliss]

12 hours ago, Abnor Mole said:

rather than talking about it on the forums where people like to argue about anything and everything

Hey you know I love the Moles & Lindens, but I have to confront this.

Forums are just places where we can actually see what people think.  Scary I know.  Personally I'd rather build with people and do fun things most of the time, and ask few questions..lol.

[Innula Zenovka]

11 hours ago, animats said:

Once the employer starts controlling hours of work, volunteers become employees and have to be paid. AOL ran into this years ago. They settled with their "Community Leaders" for US$15 million.

The article to which you link, though, suggests that it's a good deal more complex than simply "Once the employer starts controlling hours of work, volunteers become employees and have to be paid":

Quote

That class-action lawsuit, Hallissey et al v. America Online, Inc., attracted approximately 2,000 community leader volunteers, said Greenberg. America Online’s defense was, as expected, that “volunteers” are not entitled to the same protections as “employees,” and they petitioned the court several times to have the case dismissed. The crux of the case was this definition, and it’s a complicated one.

There are many factors to take into consideration when deciding whether someone is considered an employee, an independent contractor, or a volunteer under the FLSA: factors like the permanence of the relationship between the worker and the employer, the amount and nature of control the employer has over what the worker does and how he or she does it, and who profits from the relationship, and how. What the employer would like to call its workers, and what the workers would like to call themselves, are irrelevant.

Linden Lab has access to its own in-house legal advisors and to external counsel.  Presumably they're aware of Hallissey et al v. America Online, Inc, too, and have taken care to ensure LL isn't lining itself up for a multi-million dollar lawsuit. 

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Good grief, how have these forums in the past few months come to a point where discussion about feedback or suggestions for improvement of SL cant be had because people just jump down peoples throats at the mere suggestion of feedback, suggestions, highlighting potential issues arising from the past, etc.

It's always been this way any time anybody posts issues or suggestions on the forums.

The graphics shouldn't be improved, physics shouldn't be improved, lag shouldn't be improved, mentor program shouldn't be improved- SL isn't a game, we can't have game features like tutorials or user retention!

You're assuming here that people are just against any sort of progress or change, as if they're doing something deliberately against you in order to thwart what you want.

What if people, for the most part, are just disagreeing with the ideas and methods you're proposing though?

[Hunny Bunny]

 

Let the Lindens establish a digital fortress around the WelcomeHub, as merely advising someone against certain actions on the internet has never been perceived as a challenge. In return, we'll don our "Avoid Help Island" capes and "No New Users Allowed" t-shirts, constructing virtual forcefields to keep them away from our clubs, beaches, and homes.

We should collectively agree to treat the WelcomeHub with caution as if it were a breeding ground for virtual contagion. Who needs help and community spirit, anyway? Let's designate them as "Noobs" and revel in our superiority. Our perfectly curated digital bubbles require no infusion of fresh faces.

While newcomers stumble in the dark, let the seasoned oldbies chuckle and enjoy their virtual cocktails, relishing in their self-imposed isolation. Because what better way to say "welcome to the virtual world" than a well-practiced habit of shunning all "Noobs"? Who needs a friendly community when the solitude of deserted platforms beckons? Picture the joy of navigating Second Life alone, accompanied only by pixelated birds and the occasional tumbleweed. Let us unite and form the exclusive society of WelcomeHub Dissidents. Remember your membership cards and a touch of snobbishness to complete the experience.