Notes on the WelcomeHub

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

My fears, however, as expressed elsewhere, are that LL is now attempting to turn SL into a game.

Fear not.

[Luna Bliss]

15 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Fortunately, she found the forum to help direct her to all of the parts, but I wonder if mentors ever have to deal with such questions when players first land in-world at hubs and how they go about figuring that out.

That's when a mentor would direct them to 2nd level mentor,  furry specialist, Ayashe Ninetails  

Edited July 18, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Katherine Heartsong]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Do you have any ideas regarding this?  My first thoughts are that SL is not a game and so anything learned in game engagement can't apply.  However, I know very little about games, my primary experience being shooting clay bots in VR.

Gamefication ... the goal I'm striving towards is to create engagement systems that change a user's behaviour and entice them to spend time in Second Life. This isn't the same thing as designing a game, and requires SL to have better defined motivations, actions, and triggers.

There are lots of good articles to be read about UX and gamification as a method to increase engagement, and I can recommend some in IMs if you're interested.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Katherine Heartsong

[Persephone Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Agree with absolutely everything you said, but this part stands out especially. We've already had a newbie come and ask where to buy the female furry avatar featured on the homepage. I imagine she didn't expect to hear that that avatar is comprised of approximately *counts*...6-8 different parts sold by different creators scattered across the marketplace and in-world. Knowledge of some basic modding to manually add textures to parts like ears/tails/mouth is also required. Not to mention the purchase of a current up-to-date mesh body.

Fortunately, she found the forum to help direct her to all of the parts, but I wonder if mentors ever have to deal with such questions when players first land in-world at hubs and how they go about figuring that out. I wear furries on occasion and am familiar with a good portion of that mod market and I STILL have to go on epic quests to find specific parts when asked. 😩

There need to be some furry mentors. Perhaps there are some. There are mentors who speak Spanish. Maybe there are some who speak other languages too. The mentors could have notecards to hand to non-English speakers, that include links to groups and help areas for other languages.

I seen a couple newbies who knew coming in that they wanted a better-looking body. At least one had a friend in SL, so they probably had expectations based on seeing their friend's avatar.

One guy said he'd just bought $L 7000 and wanted to use it to buy a mesh avatar. I and others still encouraged him to try some free ones first. Someone suggested a Legacy body. I suggested Belleza Jake.... You know how that discussion goes, because we've seen it a thousand times on these forums.... That guy seemed to be doing fine with teleporting to different places from LMs and notecards. He was about to go to Belleza, and a couple people were going with him for support when last I saw him. That seems like someone who'll stay in SL a while,...unlike those poor souls who remain frozen in place for days, sometimes as clouds.

[Love Zhaoying]

You can say "it's not a game" all day, here are the basic "game goals" of Second Life, all optional:

- Make friends / socialize (this could include going to group events)

- Explore

- Modify your avatar's appearance to your liking

- Select a "home place" (even if it is public)

- Learn whatever you choose (scripting, buliding, how to buy / rent land, how to buy/modify a mesh avatar, etc.)

Without those basics, you're standing in a spot where you first rezzed, by yourself.  

To me at least, that's "the game". 

If someone wants to "gameify" Second Life further to be more like "other games" - that's fine, but those other steps will still be there.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Gamefication ... the goal I'm striving towards is to create engagement systems that change a user's behaviour and entice them to spend time in Second Life. This isn't the same thing as designing a game, and requires SL to have better defined motivations, actions, and triggers.

There are lots of good articles to be read about UX and gamification as a method to increase engagement, and I can recommend some in IMs if you're interested.

sure, although I think such info would be good here too, as I know all the LL staff is watching this thread with bated breath, so excited to learn from us   ;0

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

There need to be some furry mentors.

I hope so! Hoo-mons are skurry and ebil. Just imagine if someone sees all the Youtube videos etc. of SL with all the pretty Furs, logs in and are surrounded by intimidating Hoo-mons. NOT ideal.

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Maybe there are some who speak other languages too.

One can only hope that Furry mentors speak..Furbish.

 

[Persephone Emerald]

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I believe, in order to contact the "second-level mentors", the new users are required to chop down the largest shrubbery in Bellisseria with a Herring, and present the shrubbery to them as Tribute.

18 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Not too tall.

Exactly! That's a gamification quest.  😀 

[Kathlen Onyx]

I think a lot of these suggestions are great but mostly undoable.

Assigning people a specific mentor would be impossible. What if that mentor is on at a whole different time than the user? Now you are asking mentors to be available 24/7 for a whole lot of people that they now are responsible for.

Level one, two and specialized mentors would be a nightmare to keep track of. How would you even vet these people as experts?  Not to mention they might put their personal views onto another resident.  Boxes the new person in.

Rowan already pointed out one mentor that was giving wrong information. Now you take the new person away from the welcome area where you can't monitor at all what they are telling the new person.

I really think that LL wants to have the mentor program there to give new users a start in doing basic things rather than just reading billboards on how to do it.  It really is up to the user to pursue it from there.  Hand holding a new user won't make retention better. In fact it may make it worse.

 

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I think a lot of these suggestions are great but mostly undoable.

Assigning people a specific mentor would be impossible. What if that mentor is on at a whole different time than the user? Now you are asking mentors to be available 24/7 for a whole lot of people that they now are responsible for.

Level one, two and specialized mentors would be a nightmare to keep track of. How would you even vet these people as experts?  Not to mention they might put their personal views onto another resident.  Boxes the new person in.

Rowan already pointed out one mentor that was giving wrong information. Now you take the new person away from the welcome area where you can't monitor at all what they are telling the new person.

I really think that LL wants to have the mentor program there to give new users a start in doing basic things rather than just reading billboards on how to do it.  It really is up to the user to pursue it from there.  Hand holding a new user won't make retention better. In fact it may make it worse.

Well, a specific mentor need not be online 24/7 and completely available to the new resident.  Correspondence could take place via IM's and arranged meetings.  Boundaries between people are possible!

Your second point, how to determine who an expert is...perhaps they would not have to be an actual expert, but instead simply have quite a bit of knowledge in the area.  That's pretty easy to determine really.

Regarding wrong information, yes that's an issue in any setup. While passing this on to a more private type of tutoring would make the situation less able to be monitored it could be so worth it (in terms of helping a newbie acclimate) that the possibility of 'wrong information' would be negligible. Collateral damage is a reality -- not everything can be perfect.

Regarding hand-holding and retention, I think Katherine hit the nail on the head -- something is needed to help a new user see the possibilities here, be it more clearly defined goals initially or more direct attention given in some way (hence my thoughts on 2nd level mentors).

I originally thought it would be better if these "lemmings" (those who aren't very self-driven) who would just make SL worse, should just go elsewhere where they can be led around (shooting games and the like).  But my thinking has changed -- perhaps some would become great innovators here in the long-run, or great contributors to the community in other ways, or just have a lot of fun doing whatever....if only they had a bit more guidance in the beginning.

[Persephone Emerald]

27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

All that makes great sense!

I'm wondering if having something like 'second-level mentors' could help with engagement. The 1st level mentor would assist up to a certain point (the 1st level mentor being assigned upon landing and staying with the new resident beyond the absolute first steps, and so knowing the new resident better).  And then, when the 1st level mentor detected the specific interest of the new resident they could refer to the appropriate 2nd level mentor (often a specialist in their field).  The 1st level mentor could even be taught how to encourage a new resident to 'pick a path'.

I don't think second-level mentors should be assigned. I don't think mentors should be assigned to newbies at all.

Mentors are there to help with the basics, a kind of triage for onboarding. Person A has a specific problem they can help with, so they tell them the steps to follow in the LL viewer. Person B needs help in another language, so maybe this mentor contacts a mentor who speaks that language and asks them to come help. Person C has a friend in SL and an idea of what they want, but they need to talk out some ideas in voice while multiple people give them advice. Person D is frozen and non-responsive, so they might need to be teleported to a waiting area away from the landing zone. That last one may be beyond help for now, but it won't help newbie retention to have a bunch of frozen avatars clogging up the landing zone.

The "second-level mentors" should be residents who click naturally with each newbie and decide on their own to help them. They might be someone the newbie meets in the Welcome Hub or someone they meet in a group.

When I was at the Welcome Hub yesterday as my wolf Tasha, one newbie woman was speaking in voice, asking why no one was talking and could anyone hear her? I walked around and saw her walking on the path by me, so I said hello in IM and said I could hear her, but I didn't have voice on.  She said in voice, "Don't talk to me Tasha." Then another woman came by who was in voice and who shared a similar background and interests with her. They started talking together in voice, and I could tell this lady would become her friend and helper in SL.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

53 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

All that makes great sense!

I'm wondering if having something like 'second-level mentors' could help with engagement. The 1st level mentor would assist up to a certain point (the 1st level mentor being assigned upon landing and staying with the new resident beyond the absolute first steps, and so knowing the new resident better).  And then, when the 1st level mentor detected the specific interest of the new resident they could refer to the appropriate 2nd level mentor (often a specialist in their field).  The 1st level mentor could even be taught how to encourage a new resident to 'pick a path'.

Expand  

I don't think second-level mentors should be assigned. I don't think mentors should be assigned to newbies at all.

Mentors are there to help with the basics, a kind of triage for onboarding. Person A has a specific problem they can help with, so they tell them the steps to follow in the LL viewer. Person B needs help in another language, so maybe this mentor contacts a mentor who speaks that language and asks them to come help. Person C has a friend in SL and an idea of what they want, but they need to talk out some ideas in voice while multiple people give them advice. Person D is frozen and non-responsive, so they might need to be teleported to a waiting area away from the landing zone. That last one may be beyond help for now, but it won't help newbie retention to have a bunch of frozen avatars clogging up the landing zone.

The "second-level mentors" should be residents who click naturally with each newbie and decide on their own to help them. They might be someone the newbie meets in the Welcome Hub or someone they meet in a group.

When I was at the Welcome Hub yesterday as my wolf Tasha, one newbie woman was speaking in voice, asking why no one was talking and could anyone hear her? I walked around and saw her walking on the path by me, so I said hello in IM and said I could hear her, but I didn't have voice on.  She said in voice, "Don't talk to me Tasha." Then another woman came by who was in voice and who shared a similar background and interests with her. They started talking together in voice, and I could tell this lady would become her friend and helper in SL.

I like the idea of it happening naturally, but how do we get people to participate -- we need to spread the word. Maybe start a group?  I would not want to infringe on what the 'hired' mentors are doing though, so we'd need to be careful not to tread on their toes.

[Persephone Emerald]

58 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"How come our avatars just stand there, instead of being animated like in that beautiful scene?"  I would expect that question occasionally, too.

They might ask about their walk animation, and then want direction as to where to get a better free AO. If LL has some free AO sets they can offer up, they could have demos and free vendors for them. Or they might be able to build these right into the LL viewer, much as Firestorm has done, but preloaded with some simple AO sets.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

41 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's when a mentor would direct them to 2nd level mentor,  furry specialist, Ayashe Ninetails  

 

37 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

There need to be some furry mentors. Perhaps there are some.

This sounds good in theory, but it's not exactly a guarantee that even a furry avatar wearer will know all there is about furry avatars. That's a complex ecosystem all on its own. Not only are there head creators who sometimes specialize in one particular style or another (cartoony vs. realistic, some do reptiles and fish and birds and some do not, some have great mocap animations and others require the purchase of an animation HUD, etc.), but there are skins as well. Some heads are Evo X compatible. Some are SLUV. Some are custom maps. So now you're onto makeup and skin details and fur styles and the like - for entirely different head maps. And the skin can completely change the species, too, so you need to know how that affects things. My fairy dragon head very quickly turns into a red panda with the right amount of magic, if you know how to pull that off. My deer head could also become a kangaroo. Etc.

Moving on to mods like wings and tails and claws and feet and paws - some are rigged for every body under the sun. Some are exclusive to Legacy or Reborn or Maitreya. Some do Legacy M. Few do Gianni. Some are updated for the newest male bodies (CZ Slim and Anatomy). Some are Jake only. 

On and on and on and on. I can teach brand new players how to build a random cat or deer or hell, even a frog, of course, but if they approach like "I want an axolotl help me shop that" or "I'd love to wear a duck what do I buy" - I'm lost. I can't guarantee they won't need a new body different from the one they just purchased to pull it off. Hell, I wanted to buy a chicken kit but it'd mean purchasing Reborn, making a 1500L skin/tail/head/claw mod purchase into 5000L+ for all parts to fit properly.

Personally, I wouldn't be advertising furry avatars to newbies right out the gate without at least a disclaimer that putting one together is a bit of an advanced project.

[Rolig Loon]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I like the idea of it happening naturally, but how do we get people to participate -- we need to spread the word. Maybe start a group?  I would not want to infringe on what the 'hired' mentors are doing though, so we'd need to be careful not to tread on their toes.

We don't need to do anything. As Persephone and others in this thread have indicated many times, more experienced residents have been doing this since SL began. We need to just stand back and let it happen, not as an organized group but as individuals. There are some things that are best done by a well-coordinated effort like the new Mentors; others are best done organically by people who look for an opportunity to help or give a kind word. We just need to keep from tripping over each other, that's all.  

[Persephone Emerald]

57 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Do you have any ideas regarding this?  My first thoughts are that SL is not a game and so anything learned in game engagement can't apply.  However, I know very little about games, my primary experience being shooting clay pots in VR.

My fears, however, as expressed elsewhere, are that LL is now attempting to turn SL into a game.

I don't think we need to worry about this as long as game aspects are voluntary. I think gamifying how a newbie learns basic skills is great, as long as they're not forced into playing a game they might think is stupid, while they'd rather meet a friend or go off exploring on their own.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I like the idea of it happening naturally, but how do we get people to participate -- we need to spread the word. Maybe start a group?  I would not want to infringe on what the 'hired' mentors are doing though, so we'd need to be careful not to tread on their toes.

We don't need to do anything. As Persephone and others in this thread have indicated many times, more experienced residents have been doing this since SL began. We need to just stand back and let it happen, not as an organized group but as individuals. There are some things that are best done by a well-coordinated effort like the new Mentors; others are best done organically by people who look for an opportunity to help or give a kind word. We just need to keep from tripping over each other, that's all.  

I've been doing it too, for many new residents or others who needed help.

We need more people to do this as well.

Once people learn to walk or use their inventory there's simply not enough support out there to cause them to become inspired and stay -- to stay engaged.   They fly off into an empty, meaningless world or a 'how r u', boyfriend jeans wearing horny guy on the beach hitting on them. I'd love to fly off into a meaningless world as I love to make my own meaning, but apparently that is off-putting to many newbies.

I have no idea how to get more people to be helpful though -- all I know is that not enough care to do so.  Could be, just this discussion here, will inspire a few people to hit the new Welcome area and help!  At least that's something, but I'd like to see more of a concerted effort. Maybe I'll announce it in my huge Bliss Gardens group and a few others.

[Drayke Newall]

42 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

There need to be some furry mentors. Perhaps there are some.

I think this is needed. Especially when the latest marketing campaign highlights that culture in SL. Think there should also be representation with other more niche cultures in SL as new users will join for different reasons and if a mentor cant help them in directing them to what they joined for then that is bad for retention as they are left to wander the depths of SL alone until they work out how to find it.

I would hope there are some furry mentors out there however, I have not seen any when I have visited in the past.

I know when I was over at the WelcomeHub the other day on my Furry avatar some new user asked me how to go about getting a similar look. I wish I could tell them something like 'oh, just go to this shop and they have them to buy everything included' like it was in the older days with DSD, KZK, Derp, etc and then pop over to Chimera mod mall for all the extras to get the look but these days it isn't simple for furry avatars.

When I started saying they need to buy this mesh head, that human body, this skin mod, that tail, these ears, those horns, these digi legs/paws, etc, all from different stores and sometimes only on MP you could see the disappointment gradually appearing in their IM's back in the fact that it is simply a mess and to hard to try achieve something like that so early on. I helped as much as I could in giving them a list of where to go to look at complete avies and another list on where to get parts but there still needs to be a central area for new users to be able to go to get some form of satisfaction in being able to create a decent furry avie if that is what they are after.

Having a furry mentor and with that some furry representation in the shopping area at the WelcomeHub would go along way.

[Kathlen Onyx]

At some point you need to put the responsibility on the user. No amount of help is going to retain people that need this much hand holding.  The ones that really want to stay in Second Life will learn how to use it. Putting residents with a specific person could be a disaster if they don't mesh at all with them and have to go to Viola for a change. That's all she'd be doing.

The one thing that I see missing I think is something @Drayke Newallmentioned. Put all newbies in a "welcome group" automatically and let them know that for the next 90 days if you need help with anything to post in the group and someone will find the answer for you. You could even post auto messages every once in awhile like "Did you know your avatar can run. Just double tap the forward key twice and you'll be running in no time" Make them feel when they log on there is help out there if needed.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Abnor Mole]

One of the biggest complaints seems to be that the old mentor program failed because it was not properly managed by the Lab. I'm not sure how creating a resident run group would help in this regard since by definition it would not have any oversight by the Lab. 

If a group of residents wants to create their own group dedicated to helping new residents there is a way to do that... by applying to form your own Community Gateway (with the accompanying commitment and compliance). That way you are able to build and run it with all your ideas of how it should be run without coming in conflict with the existing program.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

20 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I would hope there are some furry mentors out there however, I have not seen any when I have visited in the past.

Just to clarify my earlier post, I do actually agree that furry mentors would be extremely helpful - especially with all the furry marketing happening on social media/the website. It's just a LOT for a fresh newbie to take in. Furry NUX when?! 😏

[Luna Bliss]

25 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

At some point you need to put the responsibility on the user. No amount of help is going to retain people that need this much hand holding.  The ones that really want to stay in Second Life will learn how to use it. Putting residents with a specific person could be a disaster if they don't mesh at all with them and have to go to Viola for a change. That's all she'd be doing.

The one thing that I see missing I think is something @Drayke Newallmentioned. Put all newbies in a "welcome group" automatically and let them know that for the next 90 days if you need help with anything to post in the group and someone will find the answer for you. You could even post auto messages every once in awhile like "Did you know your avatar can run. Just double tap the forward key twice and you'll be running in no time" Make the feel when they log on there is help out there if needed.

 

I'm big on people taking responsibility for themselves too, yes, but we can't neglect the fact that SL has become super-specialized and it's very hard to learn what you need to know.

I like Drayke's idea of a newbie group.  Perhaps a solution to newbie/2nd level mentor not meshing well would be to announce in that group there are mentors available to assist new residents in furthering their specific goals, their path they have chosen. Then the new resident could then choose from those mentors who they'd like to learn from and whether the fit is good.

Of course we run into the problem of supervision from LL -- I imagine it would need some supervision, as we would not want 2nd level mentors to be directing newbies to their stores or clubs.

* Or, as Abnor has mentioned gateways -- they (the group) could direct to one of these communities for further help. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Persephone Emerald]

33 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

[snip]

I originally thought it would be better if these "lemmings" (those who aren't very self-driven) who would just make SL worse, should just go elsewhere where they can be led around (shooting games and the like).  But my thinking has changed -- perhaps some would become great innovators here in the long-run, or great contributors to the community in other ways, or just have a lot of fun doing whatever....if only they had a bit more guidance in the beginning.

I don't think people who are not self-driven are going become self-driven by having more hand-holding. I don't think SL should be just throw everyone into the ocean to let them sink or swim either. I think some people are wired to be self-driven, while others are more comfortable following the pack (game objectives, social influencers, their friends, social norms, etc.). 

As an example, how many people ask for guidance from a group instead of just Googling something that interests them? Forging ahead on one's own carries a risk of getting lost or distracted. It might lead to bad information or going down weird, twisting rabbit holes. The person who chooses to seek knowledge on their own has to be able to guide themself away from garbage or danger or huge wastes of their time. They might take longer to learn what they wanted to know, but they might also learn some things they didn't expect to learn. These kinds of people seem to like the weird, "wild west" world of SL creativity.

Those who want a guided or curated path into SL have a place here too though. There are plenty of places and activities they can enjoy. They might not become builders, but they can create friendships, buy creations that others have made, decorate their homes, and be part of vibrant communities that strengthen SL as a whole. They may feel a little confused or lost at first, but once they find friends and communities where they feel at home, they can become long term residents.

[Love Zhaoying]

40 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

We don't need to do anything. As Persephone and others in this thread have indicated many times, more experienced residents have been doing this since SL began. We need to just stand back and let it happen, not as an organized group but as individuals. There are some things that are best done by a well-coordinated effort like the new Mentors; others are best done organically by people who look for an opportunity to help or give a kind word. We just need to keep from tripping over each other, that's all.  

Agreed!  

To Luna: "Who is this 'we', is there a mouse in your pocket?"

Absolutely nothing has changed that should drive us into a panic of "OMG!11!! NEW USERS! MUST HALP THEM ALL NAO!!1!"

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Drayke Newall]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Just to clarify my earlier post, I do actually agree that furry mentors would be extremely helpful - especially with all the furry marketing happening on social media/the website. It's just a LOT for a fresh newbie to take in. Furry NUX when?! 😏

Oh, 100% agree.

There is a vast difference between a simple furry avie (even like those ones on the home page) and a full modded one. The trouble is though, even a simplistic modern furry avatar at the very least requires digi legs, head, human body, skin, hair, paws and ears if the head didnt come with one. So there is still complexity to it.

And yes nux furry when!  I think though patch mentioned they are looking into furry nux part possibilities ... \o/.