Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[EliseAnne85]

2 hours ago, benchthis said:

Nah I see, hear, discovery no evil. Cool tip though ty

YW.  I also wanted to say that right now the limit buy price is showing 255 with a 3-day wait.  If you want to bid for more lindens to the dollar you could put in 256, 257 and see if it will fill.  I'd wait at least the three days but you can cancel at any time.   That's what I meant by be realistic. Bid a number that is reasonable.   

When I said *one could* try 263 linden to the dollar I was joking.   However, when I started SL again in or around 2016, sometime during that time (I don't know which year) the linden to dollar rate was near 270 linden to the 1 dollar so you never know; we never know what the future will be for the linden.

  There is also a chart somewhere where you can see how many linden are currently available at 255, 256, 257, etc to the dollar.  I'm just not sure where that chart is.  I don't buy a lot of lindens.  I have made lindens in SL mostly although will splurge from time to time.  However, if you think this is a great thing for you, perhaps you should ask where that chart is.  Or maybe someone will chime in here as to where it is.  

ETA:  I just checked the Lindex again and put in 258 and it said 2 day fill.  I'll put my screenshot but people finding that chart I'm talking about above could be very helpful for those who want to put in LIMIT BUYS.  

Edited March 8, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Rick Nightingale]

12 hours ago, TofuMusubi said:

The more I think about these changes, the angrier I get. These new policies are like the GOP's tax breaks for the rich (landowners) and then spreading the debt burden among the poor (average user using Lindex). Second Life is looking very, very unattractive right now.

I've been trying to keep politics out of my comments, but the very same thing has been happening in the UK for years and over the last two to three has been rampant, blatant and unchallenged. It redoubled with the changes of prime minister as everyone knew it would; practically the first official act was another big tax break for the rich while the less well offs had cuts to income, benefits, health and welfare support, etc..

We keep beng told we have to endure austerity, and watch prices of everything double, yet here, all the big companies, supermarkets, energy/fuel suppliers and generally super-wealthy are showing record profits (literally record-breaking profits!)

Perhaps that's why this annoys me so much too.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Rick Nightingale
spelling

[Mari Moonbeam]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

YW.  I also wanted to say that right now the limit buy price is showing 255 with a 3-day wait.  If you want to bid for more lindens to the dollar you could put in 256, 257 and see if it will fill.  I'd wait at least the three days but you can cancel at any time.   That's what I meant by be realistic. Bid a number that is reasonable.   

When I said *one could* try 263 linden to the dollar I was joking.   However, when I started SL again in or around 2016, sometime during that time (I don't know which year) the linden to dollar rate was near 270 linden to the 1 dollar so you never know; we never know what the future will be for the linden.

  There is also a chart somewhere where you can see how many linden are currently available at 255, 256, 257, etc to the dollar.  I'm just not sure where that chart is.  I don't buy a lot of lindens.  I have made lindens in SL mostly although will splurge from time to time.  However, if you think this is a great thing for you, perhaps you should ask where that chart is.  Or maybe someone will chime in here as to where it is.  

ETA:  I just checked the Lindex again and put in 258 and it said 2 day fill.  I'll put my screenshot but people finding that chart I'm talking about above could be very helpful for those who want to put in LIMIT BUYS.  

The estimated time to fill is very inaccurate, I've had it saying 2-3 days for weeks at a time. At just 1 or 2 Linden over base market. Another reason I went to PPlus  to get hassle free money .

Note the Transaction fees above - $12.29/$11.62 real USD  -- that is  **a lot**  for buying game tokens . In June 2017 -- this fee went from $0.40 to $0.60 USD. 

My SL isn't impacted much if Kim and Taylor  have a full region to themselves, a 512m skybox  or play pose balls in a store but if other people stop bringing fresh money into the world -- creators won't be making stuff and why would anyone come in ? And why rent if your place is just going to get stale under your feet?

A vibrant creative economy is needed to make people want to have a SL and not just play tourist . And that takes fresh cash. These fees hinder that .

 

 

 

 

[Randall Ahren]

I'm boycotting SL until the fees are reduced.

[Chic Aeon]

4 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

I'm boycotting SL until the fees are reduced.

In case you are being serious -- history has shown that actions will make no difference. There was a huge exodus of  people (mostly artists and creators) that left SL during the change to the TOS in August of 2013. Most went to Opensim which thrived during the next years.  Some just quit virtual life.   

None of that made any difference. Linden Lab holds the cards.   Their platform. Their rules.  Even the TOS is very clear and that -- and always has been at least for the last 16 or  17 years.

 

Each person will decide how to react to this change.  For many it will make no difference. For some it will be a deal breaker.  Everyone gets to choose but there have only been a tiny handful of times when The Lab has made reversals based on the outcry of the populous and a few voices will not matter to them.   

 

 

[Randall Ahren]

27 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

The Lab has made reversals based on the outcry of the populous and a few voices will not matter to them.  

What matters to the lab is money. If enough people boycott that it makes a serious dent in SL revenue, the Lab will rethink its position and come up with an alternative way to screw residents.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

3 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

What matters to the lab is money. If enough people boycott that it makes a serious dent in SL revenue, the Lab will rethink its position and come up with an alternative way to screw residents.

It's like that with most companies out there. Some are real greedy like some social media platforms --- others try to keep a balance on revenue and expenditures. There was probably a lot of meetings with the accountant types figuring the best balance.  For example allowing Premie Plus to pay tier with Lindens instead removes some of the money coming in from outside the virtual world.

My family owns a small business and many night I'm figuring the finances --- although on a smaller scale compared to the Lab. When money goes from one hand to another, 3rd parties like banks, etc have their hands out for a part of it.

As for comments on game type MMOs out there, they can simply raise the price of the virtual goods.

[Istelathis]

I don't imagine many people are going to boycott SL over this, for those of us who spend little money in SL it is barely even noticeable.  For people who already spend over a hundred a month in purchasing Linden, I don't think the change will be felt as hard as it would most others who can't afford that sort of money spent on entertainment.  

I was more upset at the increase in premium memberships, and dropped a couple of them after the rise in price.  It did not change anything, especially considering I was probably a minority that could not justify the expense and that was just over $20 USD a year for each account.  That would have been more of an impact than these changes are for me.  

I can imagine ways in which SL could be charging us, by the GB, inventory slots, monthly caps on chat, download speed, there are so many ways they could be sucking money from our pockets, and this just seems, well, it seems insignificant.  The rate drop for regions is the trade off, which will be appealing to some people, still out of range for many of us though.  

Edited March 8, 2023 by Istelathis

[Love Zhaoying]

It's like saying, "I'm boycotting Taco Bell until they switch from Pepsi to Coke", meanwhile Taco Bell is owned by Pepsi (Yum Brands).

[Akane Nacht]

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do we really have anything to either complain about, or thank LL for?

Nope. And that's not exactly the best customer retention strategy generally speaking. They can get away with it because there is no direct competitor. That said my online leisure money is finite, and more of it goes in the Steam sales these days, because I've hit the ceiling of what I can afford in SL, esp in terms of land. 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Nothing much will change on my end, I buy about 20 bucks a month in L$ as I'm budgetted a bit different because of making less and I'm still not premium after 15 years, still the price is to rich for my old blood, I penny pinch and looks for the best deals online. 

[Alwin Alcott]

5 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

  There is also a chart somewhere where you can see how many linden are currently available at 255, 256, 257, etc to the dollar. 

However, if you think this is a great thing for you, perhaps you should ask where that chart is.  Or maybe someone will chime in here as to where it is.  

ETA:  I just checked the Lindex again and put in 258 and it said 2 day fill.  I'll put my screenshot but people finding that chart I'm talking about above could be very helpful for those who want to put in LIMIT BUYS.  

 

may i ask you to try your theory for a week and come back if it's working?
 

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

YW.  I also wanted to say that right now the limit buy price is showing 255 with a 3-day wait.  If you want to bid for more lindens to the dollar you could put in 256, 257 and see if it will fill.  I'd wait at least the three days but you can cancel at any time.   That's what I meant by be realistic. Bid a number that is reasonable.   

When I said *one could* try 263 linden to the dollar I was joking.   However, when I started SL again in or around 2016, sometime during that time (I don't know which year) the linden to dollar rate was near 270 linden to the 1 dollar so you never know; we never know what the future will be for the linden.

  There is also a chart somewhere where you can see how many linden are currently available at 255, 256, 257, etc to the dollar.  I'm just not sure where that chart is.  I don't buy a lot of lindens.  I have made lindens in SL mostly although will splurge from time to time.  However, if you think this is a great thing for you, perhaps you should ask where that chart is.  Or maybe someone will chime in here as to where it is.  

ETA:  I just checked the Lindex again and put in 258 and it said 2 day fill.  I'll put my screenshot but people finding that chart I'm talking about above could be very helpful for those who want to put in LIMIT BUYS.  

You do realize that the "time to fill" estimate is bogus, right? It could say 1-2 days but take weeks or "never". Earlier example with the very next limit buy rate, didn't prove anything for other rates..

ETA: We get forum posts literally every few days from new users who try Limit Buy and complain "I bought Lindens but never got them".

Edited March 8, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Natacha Haroldsen]

19 hours ago, Susanna Valeska said:

Those of you paying $250 a year for PP, a $20 decrease in full region tier equals $240 a year, so you're breaking even.  In that case, homestead prices should be decreased by $10/month, equaling what you pay for regular premium.  Oh wait, but you need a PP to buy a homestead now so...that just made homesteads MORE expensive.  Still no houses to go with PP after over a year.  I don't need a gazillion groups.  This is no deal.  Sorry.

No PP dont need a full sim to get a homestead.

 

about mainland you can have 2048 plot anywhere in mainland, just not yet a linden home (or well you can have 2).

[Toothless Draegonne]

$20, better than a kick in the proverbial I guess, though still far too pricey for normal people just to have a basic bit of "land" with some isolated compute that isn't going to get ruined because they have to share that compute with a crazy cat lady, and have six other fashionistas in draw distance with their gigabyte-VRAM sofas and billion-polygon clothing racks.

Though I do gotta wonder how many of the people screaming about marketplace fees have any idea how much of a percentage other online shops charge, or how much of a percentage exchanges charge to convert one currency to another.

As for the premium plus requirement to pay with $L, yes, I'm totally going to give you money just so I can give you money. That makes perfect sense.

 

Bit of a mixed announcement really. At least it's heading kinda-sorta in the right direction, and if you think otherwise, here's a question: If someone doesn't have a place to put your shiny billion-polygon clothing rack imported from CG Trader, are they going to buy it?

[Prokofy Neva]

16 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Plus: If you are a creator / make L$ by doing things in-world, then you will have L$ to pay for your land, and will not need to BUY more L$ - so you will not pay the L$ fee / penalty for buying more L$.

I don't think you can look at this equation as "what do I save since I earned, and didn't buy, money and therefore didn't pay fees."

You have to look at it simply as what you can get when you cash out those earned Linden dollars. And cashing them out simply gives you more money for tier than you have if you pay in Lindens inworld. 

[Elvina Ewing]

46 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Though I do gotta wonder how many of the people screaming about marketplace fees have any idea how much of a percentage other online shops charge, or how much of a percentage exchanges charge to convert one currency to another.

Let's see: 10% fee on Marketplace, 5% fee to exchange L$ to USD, 5% fee to cashout to Paypal, 5% (i suspect it's more nowdays) to cashout from Paypal to local bank account. If LL were willing to cut us some slack the least they could do is to offer us a possibility to cashout directly to bank account.

I also sell on Etsy and on Ravelry, and i'm pretty sure fees per sale are less than 10% there.

[Toothless Draegonne]

15 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

Let's see: 10% fee on Marketplace, 5% fee to exchange L$ to USD, 5% fee to cashout to Paypal, 5% (i suspect it's more nowdays) to cashout from Paypal to local bank account. If LL were willing to cut us some slack the least they could do is to offer us a possibility to cashout directly to bank account.

I also sell on Etsy and on Ravelry, and i'm pretty sure fees per sale are less than 10% there.

So sell your models on Etsy then (or CGTrader, Gumroad, or whoever). 😄

Though Etsy do have a listing fee of $0.20 per item sold which is recurring if you want to auto-renew the listing, then 6.5% sales fee, and then a payment processing fee that varies by country. So for every single one of a model you sell (which I guess would go as a multi-quantity listing), you have the $0.20 flat fee PLUS the percentage, PLUS the payment processing fee. Per item.

And that's just for models. Good luck putting something that uses custom code or other more active items onto Etsy.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Toothless Draegonne

[Elvina Ewing]

16 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

So sell your models on Etsy then (or CGTrader, Gumroad, or whoever). 😄

Though Etsy do have a listing fee of $0.20 per item sold which is recurring if you want to auto-renew the listing, then 6.5% sales fee, and then a payment processing fee that varies by country. So for every single one of a model you sell (which I guess would go as a multi-quantity listing), you have the $0.20 flat fee PLUS the percentage, PLUS the payment processing fee. Per item.

And that's just for models. Good luck putting something that uses custom code or other more active items onto Etsy.

you sound like a Linden alt

[Toothless Draegonne]

Just now, Elvina Ewing said:

you sound like a Linden alt

I wish I was earning Linden money, but no. My day job is with other gamedevs.

And I've been enough of a pain in certain Lindsay's sides that I don't think I'd ever be hired anyway 😄

[Luna Bliss]

17 hours ago, Charolotte Caxton said:

17 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Second Life is not just a game -- it is a community. A community of people who have invested heavily in a place they consider a type of second home. As such, they have a stake in what goes on here, and they care about the costs because managing such costs in the best way possible will insure Second Life continues into the future.

I agree, I, too, have invested heavily into this. As such, I do not want my platform derided for making good financial choices. Thank you. I am seeing myself out of this conversation because I tend to get crazy, but thank you.

I look at the response of LL to its customers much in the same way I look at my response as a business owner to my customers. Sometimes I receive feedback from my customers. Some of that feedback is quite good as it's obvious they have put some thought into their feedback and have experience in what they're speaking to. And after all, they are the ones using my creation and know what they need and so frequently cause me to think with a fresh perspective. With others however it's obvious they can't see beyond their own nose and it's likely best I ignore that feedback.
It's not easy to separate the wheat from the chaff, but LL is being wise not to completely ignore customer feedback. 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't think you can look at this equation as "what do I save since I earned, and didn't buy, money and therefore didn't pay fees."

You have to look at it simply as what you can get when you cash out those earned Linden dollars. And cashing them out simply gives you more money for tier than you have if you pay in Lindens inworld. 

I don't follow. But that's ok.

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Though I do gotta wonder how many of the people screaming about marketplace fees have any idea how much of a percentage other online shops charge, or how much of a percentage exchanges charge to convert one currency to another.

Second Life and these other shops are very different though in numerous ways, so much so that comparisons between the two fall flat.

[Prokofy Neva]

Let's say I want to pay for my grandfathered homestead, which costs US $95. I can go inworld to a kiosk and pay $27,225 to cover that bill of US $95.

But if I go to the LindEx, even cashing out instantly at the poor rate of 246 - which is usually the case nowadays - even after the fee I yield US $105.15. That's a difference of US $10.15!

After paying the US $95 that way on the web and not inworld, I could then use that greater amount for the cashout towards more tier or the cost of the premium account -- again, I'd have $10.15 left over!

Therefore it makes absolutely no sense. The Lindens write that the reason for this option is that people will have a stable bill they can plan for, regardless of Linden fluctuation.

But it's a controlled currency exchange and the Linden doesn't fluctuate that much (although it has steadily declined in value, which is deliberate on the part of LL, since they control it).

It's not going to $10 in difference so it makes no sense. Of course you should cash out, even with the greater fee now, and pay your tier that way and have real money left over, instead of going inworld and using your hard-earned Linden dollars at that rate in the kiosk.

Even allowing for the cost of purchasing Linden dollars (if you got purchased Lindens, which are more expensive than earned Lindens), it makes no sense -- and the whole point is that this is an option is for those earning Linden dollars to pay tier.

I could see that for people in countries where it is difficult or costly to get credit cards to put on file or there isn't PayPal (Russia), this would make sense. Otherwise it doesn't.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Let's say I want to pay for my grandfathered homestead, which costs US $95. I can go inworld to a kiosk and pay $27,225 to cover that bill of US $95.

But if I go to the LindEx, even cashing out instantly at the poor rate of 246 - which is usually the case nowadays - even after the fee I yield US $105.15. That's a difference of US $10.15!

After paying the US $95 that way on the web and not inworld, I could then use that greater amount for the cashout towards more tier or the cost of the premium account -- again, I'd have $10.15 left over!

Therefore it makes absolutely no sense. The Lindens write that the reason for this option is that people will have a stable bill they can plan for, regardless of Linden fluctuation.

But it's a controlled currency exchange and the Linden doesn't fluctuate that much (although it has steadily declined in value, which is deliberate on the part of LL, since they control it).

It's not going to $10 in difference so it makes no sense. Of course you should cash out, even with the greater fee now, and pay your tier that way and have real money left over, instead of going inworld and using your hard-earned Linden dollars at that rate in the kiosk.

Even allowing for the cost of purchasing Linden dollars (if you got purchased Lindens, which are more expensive than earned Lindens), it makes no sense -- and the whole point is that this is an option is for those earning Linden dollars to pay tier.

I could see that for people in countries where it is difficult or costly to get credit cards to put on file or there isn't PayPal (Russia), this would make sense. Otherwise it doesn't.

A few thoughts: (I thought you were disagreeing but it is hard to tell from your explanation).

1. The Private-Region owning user is saving the initial $20 because Private Region fees are now $20 lower (if not a grandfathered Region, of course). PLUS the savings you outline by NOT using the LindEx to cash out - if they have the L$ balance to pay for their Private Region.

2. The Private-Region owning user saves "hassle" by cashing out (and the fee), but that is traded for the "hassle" of going to the in-world kiosk. All just to save $10.

3. For people who keep all the "money" in-game (how they earn the L$ is their business), avoiding the "conversion to USD balance" also avoids any and all consequences (if there are any...) of that operation.

Mostly, I do agree - it seems to be a lot of trouble to go in-world to a kiosk - but US$10 is US$10!  Anyway, for those SL business or individuals that own a LOT of regions (or at least more than 1), saving on just 1 Region seems like the whole thing is "lip service" at best.  But then again, those with "a LOT of regions" are the "land barons" - and supposedly in the minority..

So, on the other side of THAT equation, the users with just 1 Private Region will care more, maybe. But they still have to put that L$ balance into the system in the first place!! Quite a Catch-22.