Understanding Ban-lines

[StrongZer0]

As I look around it seem apparent that many people don't understand ban-lines.

Did you know that your ban-lines only go up to 85 meters?

Did you know that they are very intrusive to automobile and boat travel?

Did you know that they are completely ineffective for skyboxes higher than, well 85 meters high?

All that to say, if you have a skybox over water that is on a sailable path, your ban-line only serve to impede other's enjoyment and experience. If you have a creeper on your hands, they can cam into your parcel or just fly up and peek in. Therefore, a reliable security orb married with proper land management keeps your space truly private

Granted, if you have a parcel on the ground, ban-lines are effective; ugly as they are.

We should all consider carefully before using these hideous things, that are ineffective at height.

There are often occasions were there are ban-lines coupled with a zero notify orb. The immediate boot, zero notify orb is a violation of the TOS. So please, be decent and be careful.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 minute ago, StrongZer0 said:

As I look around it seem apparent that many people don't understand ban-lines.

1 Did you know that your ban-lines only go up to 85 meters?

2 Did you know that they are very intrusive to automobile and boat travel?

3 Did you know that they are completely ineffective for skyboxes higher than, well 85 meters high?

4 All that to say, if you have a skybox over water that is on a sailable path, your ban-line only serve to impede other's enjoyment and experience. If you have a creeper on your hands, they can cam into your parcel or just fly up and peek in. Therefore, a reliable security orb married with proper land management keeps your space truly private

5 Granted, if you have a parcel on the ground, ban-lines are effective; ugly as they are.

6 We should all consider carefully before using these hideous things, that are ineffective at height.

7 There are often occasions were there are ban-lines coupled with a zero notify orb. The immediate boot, zero notify orb is a violation of the TOS. So please, be decent and be careful.

1 yes

2 yes, but stay off other peoples property..or a safe distance

3 yes, thats why we have orbs

4 buildings are in general on owned land, stay off and you won't have trouble there, yes people could be more considerate, but the tight parceling at waterways is in LL hands.

5 you can hide banlines so your view won't be mixed with banlines

6 everybody makes that choice themself. .. what you mean in your post is it should be gone.

7 those are not against TOS, they are only against the Belliseria Covenant, at any other place without special mentioned part for ue of orbs in the covenant we could zip to you Mars or even bounce a few times between two special set up orbs and thán zap you to the moon.

[StrongZer0]

9 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

1 yes

2 yes, but stay off other peoples property..or a safe distance

3 yes, thats why we have orbs

4 buildings are in general on owned land, stay off and you won't have trouble there, yes people could be more considerate, but the tight parceling at waterways is in LL hands.

5 you can hide banlines so your view won't be mixed with banlines

6 everybody makes that choice themself. .. what you mean in your post is it should be gone.

7 those are not against TOS, they are only against the Belliseria Covenant, at any other place without special mentioned part for ue of orbs in the covenant we could zip to you Mars or even bounce a few times between two special set up orbs and thán zap you to the moon.

Perhaps understanding rhetorical questions may be something that you might want to look into.

If you have ever sailed a boat or driven a vehicle, you may  know that controlling these vehicles, especially over sim crossings can be a challenge. All be it, that it has improved over the years. Nevertheless, most people in my experience are not trying to invade your privacy. More often than not, since these vehicles move quickly, texture loading, lag and such are the major reasons for anyone crossing property lines. Drivers, boaters and pilots are more focused on controlling there vehicles and quite frankly are not very interested in you and what you might or might not be doing. 

Hiding ban-lines only ensures that you unknowingly crash into them.

Yes it is every individuals choice. It is also everyone's individual choice to be a nice empathetic person or something other than that.

I thought I read the zero notify language somewhere, so I may stand corrected there. Nevertheless, it is pretty much a RICHARD move. 

[Alwin Alcott]

23 minutes ago, StrongZer0 said:

Perhaps understanding rhetorical questions

on a forum are no rhetorical questions, as soon the post is visible for others, the intent can be changed by any user that replies.
The only post that stays rhetorical is the one that's not posted.

Your post is from the experience as traveler who, on mainland has in fact only the right to travel on public lands,( with a slightly different covenant at Belliseria) my response from the point of a land owner, and the rights they can use on the mainland without covenants.

[Gwin LeShelle]

Did it ever cross your mind that people exactly know all this and want it that way? Their land their rules, when I put ban lines at my roadside parcel, that was exactly what I wanted it to do. If you do not want ban lines while RPing road travel, invest in a region yourself maybe.

[StrongZer0]

22 minutes ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

Did it ever cross your mind that people exactly know all this and want it that way? Their land their rules, when I put ban lines at my roadside parcel, that was exactly what I wanted it to do. If you do not want ban lines while RPing road travel, invest in a region yourself maybe.

This subject crossed my mind when I sold a parcel to someone and explained security features. Not only that occasion, but several others where many people have returned to SL or are new all together. Several individuals are unaware.

So, just to be clear. Your suggestion is to invest $500 USD in order to drive on 65k sqm of self build road, instead of making use of the roads that SL provides? Interesting, and it speaks volumes. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by StrongZer0
Forgotten Information

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

That's why my banlines are of the finest Toledo sculptie megaprims. They reach all the way up to 36684 m altitude, are set to the brightest, glowiest and most fluorescent of texture animated colors. All at a Land Impact of only 1. What's more not to like?

[Alwin Alcott]

53 minutes ago, StrongZer0 said:

 Several individuals are unaware.

 instead of making use of the roads that SL provides?

the first is in the covenants that everybody who owns land can, and should, read. If nothing is mentioned, it's not limited except the boundaries of the TOS.

You'r of course allowed to use the Linden Roads, but you have no saying about the lands bordering it.
Wrongly configured orbs can be reported to the owner, or LL. But thats about all.

[StrongZer0]

Script Use

You can use scripted objects to enhance your land ownership tools. Generally, such scripts should:

• Provide adequate warning to the undesired Resident.
• Only work within the property lines (this includes projectiles that cannot operate beyond the parcel boundaries).
• Not be excessive in the removal of the unwanted Resident. Pushing an avatar off the property or teleporting them home is generally acceptable; intentionally applying a script to disrupt someone's Second Life connection or online status is not allowed.

Scripts or no scripts, you cannot use land ownership as a way to unfairly restrict another Second Life Resident's personal freedoms.

This may not be clear for some folks. Nevertheless, the spirit of this official document is clear, as bullet points 1 and 3 clearly mentions adequate warning and not excessive. 

There are plenty of good orbs, one that I know of that is at the staggering price of L$1 that can be set to parcel.

Again, the spirit is to provide freedoms to users and at the same time trying to balance not using those freedoms to restrict others freedoms. This is a struggle that all societies have, so, why should it be different here? My point is that with knowledge and the desire to be a decent human, then lets try to be more corporative. You can always decide not to do that. 

 

[StrongZer0]

38 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

That's why my banlines are of the finest Toledo sculptie megaprims. They reach all the way up to 36684 m altitude, are set to the brightest, glowiest and most fluorescent of texture animated colors. All at a Land Impact of only 1. What's more not to like?

Ah, one of my favorite parcels! So beautiful

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, StrongZer0 said:

If you have a creeper on your hands, they can cam into your parcel or just fly up and peek in.

The immediate boot, zero notify orb is a violation of the TOS

on these two things

when we set our banlines, and  restrict visibility to parcel, and add one acount to the parcel banlist (like Governor Linden for example) then anyone on top of the banline box over the parcel can't see any avatar inside the box. Nor can a person inside the banline box see an avatar on top of the box

on the second, a zero notify orb on regular mainland is not a TOS violation. The restriction on zero notify orbs only applies on the Belliseria Linden Homes estate

 

just add a thing for you StrongZer0 if you don't know already

seasoned mainland travellers typically use a TPV that includes the Catznip mini-map. It shows on the mini-map where the parcel boundaries are, and when we can see where they are then can easily enough stay on the Linden/LDPW publicly designated roadways, pathways, rivers, oceans. Of which there are thousands and thousands of kilometers to go on

hitting a banline in our car is a bit like hitting a car coming in the other direction in RL. Usually happens when we are going to fast for the conditions

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Mollymews

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, StrongZer0 said:

Script Use

you bring in more and more   ... shall i leave the light on for you? or already rezz a bed so you can move in... to use your "rights"  ?

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, StrongZer0 said:

Script Use

You can use scripted objects to enhance your land ownership tools. Generally, such scripts should:

• Provide adequate warning to the undesired Resident.
• Only work within the property lines (this includes projectiles that cannot operate beyond the parcel boundaries).
• Not be excessive in the removal of the unwanted Resident. Pushing an avatar off the property or teleporting them home is generally acceptable; intentionally applying a script to disrupt someone's Second Life connection or online status is not allowed.

Scripts or no scripts, you cannot use land ownership as a way to unfairly restrict another Second Life Resident's personal freedoms.

This may not be clear for some folks. Nevertheless, the spirit of this official document is clear, as bullet points 1 and 3 clearly mentions adequate warning and not excessive. 

There are plenty of good orbs, one that I know of that is at the staggering price of L$1 that can be set to parcel.

Again, the spirit is to provide freedoms to users and at the same time trying to balance not using those freedoms to restrict others freedoms. This is a struggle that all societies have, so, why should it be different here? My point is that with knowledge and the desire to be a decent human, then lets try to be more corporative. You can always decide not to do that. 

 

Knowledge base articles as a user guide ≠ ToS or enforceable rules. 

[Pixie Kobichenko]

5 hours ago, StrongZer0 said:

As I look around it seem apparent that many people don't understand ban-lines.

(As I read your response to Alwin it seems apparent you don’t understand the complex difficulty in communicating to a world wide audience & reacted harshly to someone participating in the conversation (not that they need my help in pointing this out).

The only thing to understand is if the person enabling them is breaching that particular areas covenant then the person offended can file a report to the overlord of the vassal & hope for whatever pixelated repercussions to occur.  Same with bouncy security orbs.  
 

It’s not worth the bother of “rhetorical questions” in a forum people come to for discussion.
Maybe you could keep in mind that some of your audience is from a region of the world that tends to be blunt & doesn’t make innuendos, or English is a 2nd language by disclosing that you’re making an authoritative observation  & not asking questions. 

5 hours ago, StrongZer0 said:

As I look around it seem apparent that many people don't understand ban-lines.

Did you know that your ban-lines only go up to 85 meters?

Did you know that they are very intrusive to automobile and boat travel?

Did you know that they are completely ineffective for skyboxes higher than, well 85 meters high?

All that to say, if you have a skybox over water that is on a sailable path, your ban-line only serve to impede other's enjoyment and experience. If you have a creeper on your hands, they can cam into your parcel or just fly up and peek in. Therefore, a reliable security orb married with proper land management keeps your space truly private

Granted, if you have a parcel on the ground, ban-lines are effective; ugly as they are.

We should all consider carefully before using these hideous things, that are ineffective at height.

There are often occasions were there are ban-lines coupled with a zero notify orb. The immediate boot, zero notify orb is a violation of the TOS. So please, be decent and be careful.

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Pixie Kobichenko

[Lindal Kidd]

Hi, @StrongZer0!

Yes, we understand banlines. Most of us don't use them, but at times and for some people they are a good tool.

One small correction: Banlines don't extend up to 85 meters. To be precise, they extend 50 meters above the terrain, so they go up to 50 meters plus the land's height above sea level. This is only true of "general" banlines. If the ban is against you personally (that is, you've been put on the parcel's ban list by name) the ban lines go up to 5,000 meters, preventing you from flying over the parcel and rezzing anvils to drop on the folks below.

Here's a feature of banlines your post didn't mention: You can fly over the banlined parcel, then turn off flight and let yourself fall. You can bounce on the banline's "roof" as if it were a trampoline.

Another feature you didn't mention: You can turn off visibility of banlines in your viewer. This doesn't make them go away, but it does make them invisible. That is less than useful if you're trying to navigate, but is extremely useful if your neighbor has put up banlines that are visible from your own property.

[Lucia Nightfire]

9 hours ago, StrongZer0 said:

As I look around it seem apparent that many people don't understand ban-lines.

Did you know that your ban-lines only go up to 85 meters?

Did you know that they are very intrusive to automobile and boat travel?

Did you know that they are completely ineffective for skyboxes higher than, well 85 meters high?

All that to say, if you have a skybox over water that is on a sailable path, your ban-line only serve to impede other's enjoyment and experience. If you have a creeper on your hands, they can cam into your parcel or just fly up and peek in. Therefore, a reliable security orb married with proper land management keeps your space truly private

Granted, if you have a parcel on the ground, ban-lines are effective; ugly as they are.

We should all consider carefully before using these hideous things, that are ineffective at height.

There are often occasions were there are ban-lines coupled with a zero notify orb. The immediate boot, zero notify orb is a violation of the TOS. So please, be decent and be careful.

Did you know that no matter how much vehicle supremacists scream as sovereign citizens, land owner rights trump vehicle supremacists "rights".

You guys already have the luxury to have your vehicles bypass a parcel's no public object entry protocol.

You guys already have the luxury to have your vehicles bypass a parcel's no public script operation protocol.

If someone doesn't want your vehicle (and its land impact)(and its passengers FTM) on their land, that is their right and there is no amount of personal/proclaimed/assumed/suggested vehicle right of way "etiquette" that counters/overturns/overrules that and no amount of forums posts, and there have been probably over a hundred on this subject, that will change their minds.

TLDR; DEAL WITH BANLINES

[Istelathis]

It is better to just drive through Bellisseria if you want an unhindered driving experience, that goes for flying as well.  If you want to go through the mainland, a wearable vehicle will provide you a superior experience if you are soloing it as crossing sims will not result your vehicle bugging out and going out of control.  Flying through the mainland is better if you have a HUD to display where known security orbs are, but I find it to be pretty slow to display such parcels so not really worth it - again Bellisseria is where you would want to fly.  Boating I haven't had too many problems with, I just move slow through tight areas.  In Firestorm, I typically will bring up the land window, which in turn displays highlights of property lines so I can avoid them while boating.

Someone suggested purchasing your own region, which understandably is an expensive ordeal for a lot of people.  If you want to, you can set up your own racing tracks and land for free by hosting open simulator, I would suggest dreamgrid as it is easy.  I have done so, and find it nice when I want to fly, drive, or sail around unhindered and without lag or sim crossing bugs.  

I understand the frustration, it is annoying to be sent to your home point on a moment's notice, often accompanied by a rude message from a security orb.  Ban lines haven't been as much of a hindrance for me.  I also understand these people are paying for their land so we are guests if they leave their land open to us.  If they don't want us there, then we really have no say for it, as we don't pay for it.  Find ways around it, because it is not likely to ever change and not worth getting upset by it. 

Happy driving, boating, flying 🤗🙃

Edited September 19, 2021 by Istelathis

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

on a forum are no rhetorical questions, as soon the post is visible for others, the intent can be changed by any user that replies.
The only post that stays rhetorical is the one that's not posted.

You mean all those times I've actually typed in (rhetorical question) people are just going to ignore it and deliberately misconstrue what was said anyway?

Whodathunkit.

[Gwin LeShelle]

So you do not want pay money for a region of yourself...but complain about not being able traveling linden roads...I personally NEVER encountered any ban lines on linden roads! Why is that? Because they are owned by LL and no one can put ban lines on them...when you encounter ban lines on land it's not official linden roads and whoever lives there has all the right to do so. I travel alot via different vehicles, and my family also and that's just the way it is.

Also it sounds as if you take ban lines very personal, just don't...I never do and I really doubt people do this on evil purpose...just everyone has a different definition of privacy and a different need for it, so thats the way I take it! Except people that are creeping on their neighbours parcel rezzing evil things and get banned from there...they deserve all the ban lines  

Edited September 19, 2021 by Gwin LeShelle

[Female Winslet]

At the last SLB, Patch said LL would not be further restricting ban lines or security orbs on the mainland because they want the mainland to be free, accessible, and travelable or words to that effect. I'm not sure how that makes sense at all given that the ban lines and security orbs prevent exactly those things from happening. 

What I can say is that I've been funding a forest in the snowlands overlooking Lake Zermatt, two airports, a marina, and a museum, all of which are kept open for everyone free of charge with no ban lines. The freedom, accessibility, and travelableness of the mainland enabled by all these banlines and orbs makes it very difficult for people to even get to those places. And I've been very frustrated about it for a long time. Especially since LL no longer seems to be enforcing the policy against zero warning orbs quoted above. 

At this point I've started downsizing and I'm not sure when I'll quit. But I am tired of paying hundreds of USD to LL per month so I can provide free things for people when people can't easily travel there and use them. And I'm tired of feeling confined to my own land because I can't wander outside of it without risking somebody's orb teleporting me home with no warning at all. I'm trying to move what I get rid of into the hands of people who will continue them on . . . but the bottom line is that the ban line and orb abuse so interferes with the experience that I'm no longer willing to pay for it as I have been. I'd imagine I'm not alone. So I'd imagine some of the spots I've kept open and funded for the benefit of everyone will be disappearing over the next few months. Maybe to be replaced by parcels surrounded by ban lines and zero warning security orbs. I'd probably keep things open if it were not so difficult to travel around the mainland. 

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Female Winslet said:

Especially since LL no longer seems to be enforcing the policy against zero warning orbs quoted above. 

There has never been such a policy on mainland.  The above quote you mentioned said scripts should and not scripts must.  Wording is important.

[Solar Legion]

It is almost as though paying for the parcel gives one the ability to determine who has access to it, the manner in which that access is granted and when said access is granted ....

Now if they'd simply stop pretending that Belli is anything other than a Vehicular User Project continent .....

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

I've seen in some rare cases where a parcel owner will split their parcel and make a small part of it near water or a road passable and the remainder off limits.  I've seen one orb pop up a message that it's owner modified saying "You are not authorised in this area.  Maybe the SL gremlins pushed you here or using an old TP - you have 120 seconds to kindly move on."

[Female Winslet]

11 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

There has never been such a policy on mainland.  The above quote you mentioned said scripts should and not scripts must.  Wording is important.

If the only thing you can find to disagree with in all that I said is to quibble over interpreting one word, then I am gratified that we already agree on so much.

Then there’s the people who like to say it uses the word generally and they—and everyone else—is an exception to the general rule that should get an exception.

The other favorite for those who promote ban line and security orb abuse is to argue that it only requires “adequate warning” and no notice at all is adequate, therefore the requirement to provide adequate warning actually doesn’t require providing any warning at all. Which means basically it’s a line of text that may as well not exist. And it states a requirement that doesn’t actually require anything. Not very sensible, but it’s what the ban line/orb people say. 

But the thing I’ve always found especially galling is the difference in morality. We have some people whose whole perspective is “my land, I do whatever I want.” Then we have people who want to make SL a better place for everyone. Selfishness vs. responsibility I suppose. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Female Winslet

[Pixie Kobichenko]

9 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

ut the thing I’ve always found especially galling is the difference in morality. We have some people whose whole perspective is “my land, I do whatever I want.” Then we have people who want to make SL a better place for everyone. Selfishness vs. responsibility I suppose. 

Morality?  Right & wrong- good or bad behavior?  

What creates the distinction for you between someone plowing their car  into my real life brick mailbox & wanting to avoid a pixelated jackass creating headaches for someone in second life?  It’s not okay for someone to waltz into my real life home & open all the cabinets or repaint the walls & mess the bed.  But in SL that should be tolerated?  
 

If someone trades bits of their money (they earned by trading bits of their life away) to create an escape in SL why is it a morality issue for you that they want their boundaries marked & respected?