Understanding Ban-lines

[Doris Johnsky]

On 9/19/2021 at 1:45 AM, StrongZer0 said:

Perhaps understanding rhetorical questions may be something that you might want to look into.

 

Dude. Nothing you asked was rhetorical.  They were direct questions. 

[Doris Johnsky]

On 9/19/2021 at 1:45 AM, StrongZer0 said:

Perhaps understanding rhetorical questions may be something that you might want to look into.

 

Dude. Nothing you asked was rhetorical.  They were direct questions. 

[Rowan Amore]

11 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

but it’s what the ban line/orb people say. 

No, it's what it actually says.  If LL had meant they MUST, then they would have used that word.  As in ALL security orbs ANYWHERE MUST give sufficient warning.  How you choose to interpret it is irrelevant.

[Innula Zenovka]

23 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

f someone doesn't want your vehicle (and its land impact)(and its passengers FTM) on their land

I may be mistaken, but doesn't the vehicle's LI (and that of any of its passengers, come to that) come out of the region's "spare" LI that's allocated to, but not currently in use by, individual parcels?    That is, the same pool of spare LI than temp-on-rez objects use?

If the region is literally full, vehicles can't enter it, of course, but otherwise I don't see how LI matters.     I might not want vehicles crossing my land, or even one of their wheels temporarily impinging on it, for all sorts of reasons, but I don't think LI needs to be one of them.

[norajulian]

All of your assumptions seem to be under the impression, OP, that humans are inherently good, kind creatures who won’t cam people or use script overriding trolling HUDs to attack folks. It’s the bad apples that ruin things for folks.
 

Yes, some of these things may cause minor inconveniences, but as others have said - you’re more than welcome to fly over Belli lands with little issues. Most of mainland sky is so cluttered at this point that I hardly understand how flying over anywhere other than protected land would be enjoyable. To each their own, I suppose.

My mainland parcel doesn’t have security up, other than a visitor tracker, but if anyone were to drive into my parcel, they would certainly be far off the beaten path. As far as my parcel on a private region - ban lines are up and a security orb (20 seconds) is up to the full parcel extension. I have a couple of child avatars who call that parcel their home. Random strangers would never be invited to peek in windows in RL and snap photos of myself or my children - so why would I offer the opportunity in SL?

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I may be mistaken, but doesn't the vehicle's LI (and that of any of its passengers, come to that) come out of the region's "spare" LI that's allocated to, but not currently in use by, individual parcels?    That is, the same pool of spare LI than temp-on-rez objects use?

If the region is literally full, vehicles can't enter it, of course, but otherwise I don't see how LI matters.     I might not want vehicles crossing my land, or even one of their wheels temporarily impinging on it, for all sorts of reasons, but I don't think LI needs to be one of them.

Only if the vehicle is temp on rez, contains 0 mesh and the land impact does not go over 10% of the region's max prims.

Mesh, even when set to temp, does not use temp prim accounting.

Mesh "Prim" physics shapes can balloon land impact when a linkset is turned physical.

The presence of sitters or selectors prevents autoreturn or overflow return.

Non-temp land impact that exceeds a parcel's maximum prim allowance begins to "take away" available prims from other parcels at a proportion based on % of parcel size versus region max prims.

Temp prim land impact that overflows a region's max prim allowance by 10% will block rezzing of temp, non-temp or mesh content anywhere in the region.

Region-wide temp prim overflow can instantly cause all temp non-mesh objects in the region to die.

And, yes, when a region's max prims have been overflowed, no vehicles or objects can enter.

TL;DR - If a vehicle contains mesh or is non-temp, a parcel owner is eating the land impact.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 9/19/2021 at 6:10 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

you bring in more and more   ... shall i leave the light on for you? or already rezz a bed so you can move in... to use your "rights"  ?

...to your imaginary house?

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Only if the vehicle is temp on rez, contains 0 mesh and the land impact does not go over 10% of the region's max prims.

Mesh, even when set to temp, does not use temp prim accounting.

Mesh "Prim" physics shapes can balloon land impact when a linkset is turned physical.

The presence of sitters or selectors prevents autoreturn or overflow return.

Non-temp land impact that exceeds a parcel's maximum prim allowance begins to "take away" available prims from other parcels at a proportion based on % of parcel size versus region max prims.

Temp prim land impact that overflows a region's max prim allowance by 10% will block rezzing of temp, non-temp or mesh content anywhere in the region.

Region-wide temp prim overflow can instantly cause all temp non-mesh objects in the region to die.

And, yes, when a region's max prims have been overflowed, no vehicles or objects can enter.

TL;DR - If a vehicle contains mesh or is non-temp, a parcel owner is eating the land impact.

Are you sure about this?

One of my alts has just rezzed a car on their plot on Bellisseria:

This is the resulting LI

 

When my alt gets in the vehicle, drives it off the parcel and onto the road, and then checks the parcel LI, this is the result

So initially the LI comes out of what's available on my land, but then it comes out of the region LI when I drive off.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Are you sure about this?

One of my alts has just rezzed a car on their plot on Bellisseria:

This is the resulting LI

 

I can come to your parcel, rez and sit on my NPV and block all rezzing on your land or in the region if you want. Send me a tp lure. 😉

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Innula Zenovka]

3 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

I can come to your parcel, rez and sit on my NPV and block all rezzing on your land or in the region if you want. Send me a tp lure. 😉

Even if you don't have rez rights on my parcel?

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Even if you don't have rez rights on my parcel?

Well, I don't want to show off too much, so I'll just "drive" there from the nearest rez parcel. 😉

[Qie Niangao]

Once all bugs and other griefing vectors are fixed, some desperate ne'er-do-well might resort to vehicle abuse. Do let's hasten to prevent that at all cost, lest fun be had in the meantime.

[Lucia Nightfire]

I got something wrong in that previous list.

It's 10% region overflow of non-temp legacy prims or mesh that blocks non-temp legacy prim and mesh rezzing in the reigon.

It's 10% region temp prim overflow that blocks temp legacy prim or mesh rezzing, but not non-temp legacy prim rezzing.

Also, this rate might also apply to the grid-wide parcel owner level as well.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Once all bugs and other griefing vectors are fixed, some desperate ne'er-do-well might resort to vehicle abuse. Do let's hasten to prevent that at all cost, lest fun be had in the meantime.

Fillers and overfillers have been a thing in "Combat HUDs" for years.

It's why I even added it to my NPV from the days(over 5 years ago) I use to hang out in the weapons testing sandbox to block idiots from filling it with spam or attacks.

I've filed this feature request and this feature request to deter that behavior, but LL hasn't bothered implementing any protocol.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

So initially the LI comes out of what's available on my land, but then it comes out of the region LI when I drive off.

There are two pools that are being used, the parcel pool (parcel owner available prims grid-wide) and the region pool (ignoring region object bonus).

Driving off the parcel, just means someone else is now eating the land impact, that is, if you entered a different land owner's parcel.

Also, as long as the land impact doesn't go over their available prims, else, others are eating that overage in a distributed ratio region wide.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Innula Zenovka]

1 minute ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

There are two pools that are being used, the parcel pool (parcel owner available prims grid-wide) and the region pool (ignoring region object bonus).

Driving off the parcel, just means someone else is now eating the land impact, that is, if you entered a different land owner's parcel.

Yes, but if they're not using it for the 10 seconds or however long it takes me to drive across their parcel,  what's the harm?   If there's a problem, surely it results in my vehicle not being able to enter their parcel rather than in their objects being returned from the parcel?

 

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Yes, but if they're not using it for the 10 seconds or however long it takes me to drive across their parcel,  what's the harm?   If there's a problem, surely it results in my vehicle not being able to enter their parcel rather than in their objects being returned from the parcel?

 

That still depends on the land owner's needs/reasoning.

For me, I've had idiots stop on my land with their 500+ land impact (once it turned physical) car doing who knows what, maybe take a selfie or to look at the surroundings.

My land has a specific use case and that is to rez one or more high land impact animesh "playmates" on demand per clientele, anywhere from 75 to over 400 land impact each.

I also offer private rooms at various altitudes on individual privacy parcels.

So when I get people entering private parcels or when I get an influx of land impact that I do not own, people get sent home and objects get returned.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Theresa Tennyson]

23 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

There has never been such a policy on mainland.  The above quote you mentioned said scripts should and not scripts must.  Wording is important.

The last time I saw that argument, I pointed out that when someone in authority says that you 'should' do something and you reply with, "Well, you didn't say 'must'", they generally come back with a new direction that not only says 'must', but is usually more draconian than what they were asking for before.

I made that observation a few days before ban lines and no-warning orbs were banned on Bellissaria.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Theresa Tennyson

[Innula Zenovka]

4 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

That still depends on the land owner's needs/reasoning.

For me, I've had idiots stop on my land with their 500+ land impact (once it turned physical) car doing who knows what, maybe take a selfie or to look at the surroundings.

My land has a specific use case and that is to rez one or more high land impact animesh "playmates" on demand per clientele, anywhere from 75 to over 400 land impact each.

I also offer private rooms at various altitudes on individual privacy parcels.

So when I get people entering private parcels or when I get an influx of land impact that I do not own, people get sent home and objects get returned.

Yes, but that's a very specific use case, I think.   Not many people run animatronic knocking shops or whatever on their land, after all, and if they do, I'd have thought the rezzers could solve the problem, should it arise, by checking who on the parcel owns what before they try to rez a playmate, and if someone's seated on something that doesn't belong to the landowner that's too high an LI to allow this, simply have the script unsit and send them home,  which should also trigger object return shortly afterwards.     Would something like that not work?

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The last time I saw that argument, I pointed out that when someone in authority says that you 'should' do something and you reply with, "Well, you didn't say 'must'", they generally come back with a new direction that not only says 'must', but is usually more draconian than what they were asking for before.

I made that observation a few days before ban lines and no-warning orbs were banned on Bellissaria.

That's nice.  The mainland policy has been in effect far longer than the one for Bellissaria.  If they had wanted to be more specific and say MUST for mainland, they have had more than ample time to do so.  I'm sure many before me have interpreted the meaning as a suggestion rather than a hard and fast rule.  

[Lucia Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Yes, but that's a very specific use case, I think.   Not many people run animatronic knocking shops or whatever on their land, after all, and if they do, I'd have thought the rezzers could solve the problem, should it arise, by checking who on the parcel owns what before they try to rez a playmate, and if someone's seated on something that doesn't belong to the landowner that's too high an LI to allow this, simply have the script unsit and send them home,  which should also trigger object return shortly afterwards.     Would something like that not work?

I simply do not want to add the overhead to each rezzer, one for rezzing characters, furniture, bits, animation preloaders, adjusting helpers.

I'm already splitting scripts big time with everything as it is. To check who is sitting on something and where, I would have to use a dedicated llGetAgentList() script per rezzer or involve back and forth to a central service.

I can't depend on an unsit magically causing a vehicle to die especially if the owner selects it or might have it already selected.

Vehicles sometimes enter regions without a sitter as they've already crashed to desktop or got unsat in an adjacent region.

I simply have a dedicated central single-scripted host that, at the bare minimum, checks for changes in llGetParcelPrimCount() that, upon change, checks where the land impact is coming from and if it is not owned by me, moves to the parcel, executes a prim return then moves back to its origin.

I simply do not want to add overhead anywhere to accommodate vehicles.

If vehicles weren't able to override the no-object entry flag, 99.9% of vehicle user's ire would be on just banlines and not security orbs.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

That's nice.  The mainland policy has been in effect far longer than the one for Bellissaria.  If they had wanted to be more specific and say MUST for mainland, they have had more than ample time to do so.  I'm sure many before me have interpreted the meaning as a suggestion rather than a hard and fast rule.  

I'm pretty sure, though, there used to be some enforcement against hair-trigger orbs. Not sure when we heard about it, but I'd guess sometime around when Zindra was created, and the reported penalty was only return of the scripts with a warning; I don't recall anybody saying a suspension was involved.

Somebody should go to Governance (or Concierge?) user group to see what the Lindens actually think the Mainland policy even is now. I'd be surprised if there's agreement (and more surprised if they agreed that zero-warning kick-bans were just fine).

As I usually post to these threads, it's far too late now to establish a meaningful "right to roam" policy for Mainland, but that once upon a time it would have made LL a lot of money over the years to limit the more restrictive access features (whitelist banlines, llTeleportAgentHome) so they'd operate only on Estates. For one thing, the pretend-privacy aficionados and proprietors of animatronic brothels, etc., would be paying slightly more for Estate fees than for Mainland tier, and more interestingly, Mainland would have been as visitor-welcoming as Bellisseria which has proven a very big draw (and, I'd suggest, not only for vehicle users).

Edited September 20, 2021 by Qie Niangao

[Female Winslet]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'm pretty sure, though, there used to be some enforcement against hair-trigger orbs. Not sure when we heard about it, but I'd guess sometime around when Zindra was created, and the reported penalty was only return of the scripts with a warning; I don't recall anybody saying a suspension was involved.

Yup. I've personally reported zero warning orbs that got removed. Now LL doesn't seem to do it. Kinda strange to say, "hey, you shouldn't do it, but awwww it's okay if you do."

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Somebody should go to Governance (or Concierge?) user group to see what the Lindens actually think the Mainland policy even is now. I'd be surprised if there's agreement (and more surprised if they agreed that zero-warning kick-bans were just fine).

At one point there was a group of us that came together to talk to Linden Labs by doing exactly this. At one of the usergroup meetings I personally went to, the Lindens present were surprised to learn there was any policy at all. One of the big successes of this group seemed to be Bellisseria's orb restrictions in that Belli opened without them, they were then imposed, and Belli proved to be a massive success for what LL told us they wanted the whole of SL to be--a friendly, social space. And, incidentally, something that made people pay up for premium memberships.

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

As I usually post to these threads, it's far too late now to establish a meaningful "right to roam" policy for Mainland, but that once upon a time it would have made LL a lot of money over the years to limit the more restrictive access features (whitelist banlines, llTeleportAgentHome) so they'd operate only on Estates. For one thing, the pretend-privacy aficionados and proprietors of animatronic brothels, etc., would be paying slightly more for Estate fees than for Mainland tier, and more interestingly, Mainland would have been as visitor-welcoming as Bellisseria which has proven a very big draw (and, I'd suggest, not only for vehicle users).

I disagree. Again, Bellisseria was opened without any restrictions. And then the restrictions were added after. The same could be done on the rest of mainland. In fact, some might remember the old days when banlines reached up to the max build height of 4096m. Nowadays they only go above 50m above ground level. That was a massive improvement introduced later. 

Moreover, all of the abandoned mainland costs LL money to maintain, but it doesn't generate any revenue. If I were LL, I'd be very interested in getting some income from all that abandoned land. Making mainland attractive would help a lot and the way it is now obviously isn't working. In fact, we see that private estates and the handful of mainland areas with restrictions on orb abuse and ban lines are the places that are actually generating $$$.

Of course, the cost of enforcing the policy is an issue. We know that LL has found it laborious and expensive to enforce in Bellisseria. But having a uniform grid wide policy would be a heck of a lot easier and less expensive for LL to enforce. Orb makers would release updates that complied with the policy thereby replacing many non-compliant ones. Non-compliant orbs could be removed by automated gridwide search and removal tools just as has been done in the past with other griefing tools, IP infringing objects, etc. in the past. After all, if LL can ban gachas, there's no reason they can't ban other things. It's just a matter of choosing. 

And, of course, I'm one person who is cutting my mainland holdings and the amount that I pay LL per month directly because of ban lines and security orbs. I'm certainly not running out of funds to pay tier. But I'm choosing to cut down on it because I don't want to pay for the experience and I'm tired of spending hundreds of USD per month to support things that are meant to be found by explores when LL does not provide a place to explore. I know I'm not the only one. And when people start cutting things they create for the community, that means the whole community loses. Not just LL.

Which brings us back to that point about people advocating for making SL a better place for all versus people whose perspective is limited to "me me me" and nothing more. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Female Winslet

[Bree Giffen]

I just got some land by a linden road and use an orb with a 30 second warning. One issue is that it’s somewhat difficult to actually see the effects of banlines on your property without using a second account to test it out. As the land owner you just won’t be affected by your restrictions. You have to be experienced with banlines on other parcels to really understand the gravity of ticking a little box in your land options.

[Silent Mistwalker]

*ticks on, ticks off, ticks on, ticks off, ticks on, ticks off...