New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Rei Waifu]

Just now, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

Apparently the Legal world does not consider 'getting crap' to be gambling.

if they did then stores like Primark would be banned

[Anna Mesmer]

I'm wondering if a script with rotating items might replace the Gacha script?  You could set the timing like the lucky numbers do so you pay for the specific item shown on the vendor and then it changes when someone buys the one shown.  Would that be legal?  That way the Gacha machines we already have could be used by switching out the script.  Not even sure if this is possible.  I'm hoping it would be.  

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Hana Nova said:

This is just so typical and telling of how the modern world works. Something gets outlawed, and instead of asking the question "how can we comply", the question is, "how can we toe the line".

This is why we can't have nice things. You and I both know that it's not about the method in which randomness is doled out, but the verifiability of the scripts involved.

Instead of just complying, you're asking for the rules and regulations to be delineated precisely. Well, be careful what you wish for because you might up losing much more than just gacha if you insist on them leaving no loopholes.

They aren't listening. ☹️

They are hearing, but, they are not listening.

[Deathly Fright]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Would then make it gambling.

the "odds" here are versus getting the rare from the chair for free....

 

[Rosa Hexem]

1 minute ago, Deathly Fright said:

you always say what I mean to say in such a better way

do the same with just a name prize chair, so if you're giving away the items in a name chair, have a conveyor that you can buy from as well, which does have better odds at getting the rare. if I was still a creator I'd even charge more for each conveyor purchase due to the odds.

You flatter me 😁. But yes there's just a myriad of mechanics at play here which operate outside the letter of the new ruling but certainly not the spirit of it. I believe that we could tone all these systems down to be more permissable but as mine stand I'm basically just engineering edge-cases in my head where LL could effectively step in and go "that's basically gacha", though I also suppose that I assume the conveyor is distant enough from gacha that it's safe from prosecution.

Yet again it just kind of comes down to seeing what the Lindens might have to say about all this, at least before people start creating sisyphean fishing machines to circumvent the technicalities of an anti-gacha policy.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

Apparently the Legal world does not consider 'getting crap' to be gambling.

In the Real world, you have recourse if the product is not as advertised or described whether through store returns or courts if need be. In this virtual world we have to suck up the loss.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Hana Nova said:

This is just so typical and telling of how the modern world works. Something gets outlawed, and instead of asking the question "how can we comply", the question is, "how can we toe the line".

More like "How can we stand on the line and maybe get our little toe over it?"

This isn't really any different than when LL banned gambling and folks kept putting out ideas trying to figure out a way to keep gambling but get around the ban.   Or when the banking crap was first banned and folks tried to figure out how to get around that while pretending to be abiding by the rules.

[PekeNL]

𝖠𝗐𝗐𝗐𝗐𝗐𝗒𝗂𝗌.

[Marigold Devin]

20 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I've highlighted the flaw in your thinking ... here's the dictionary definition of gambling ...

the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes.

The gambling (aka chance) part comes in when you pay money and you are not certain of the outcome, in this case, the regular item you'll receive for you money. This is the crux of the problem with gachas and loot boxes from a legal standpoint. It's not gambling when I pay money and choose the item I get; which is how stores and the MP works.

If you want to resell an item, put up a store or MP listing which is the equivalent to a virtual garage sale. It is honestly not that hard. Trust me, if someone as tech stupid as me can figure it out, anyone can. If a seller doesn't want you to resell an item, it's a simple no transfer setting [aside: I think this is a big part of the massive pushback against the upcoming Gacha ban ... reselling .. though I don't know the intricacies of gachas that well since I never partake]..

My paintings? They allow for transfers just like my RL works (but not copy or modification), so feel free to buy and mark up and sell them on at whatever profit you can make, just like RL.

(Sorry Marigold, I posted this before seeing your earlier reply!! *hugs*)

/me hugs you back.

Am reading all and being educated.  

 

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

It's not. I live in Japan, and they only banned kompu gachas x3 gacha itself is still perfectly legal.

Not arguing just using your post to inject this into the convo:

https://venturebeat.com/2012/05/18/complete-gacha-illegal/

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

In the Real world, you have recourse if the product is not as advertised or described whether through store returns or courts if need be. In this virtual world we have to suck up the loss.

Only to a degree.  Many stores have policies that do not allow return of sale items for any reason other than "it is totally broke" -- i.e. it does not fit right is not a valid reason.  If you choose to buy an item on sale without trying it on and it fits like crap, then tough.  

Even if the SL store does not have a demo, if you choose to buy it without being able to try it on, tough.

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

In the Real world, you have recourse if the product is not as advertised or described whether through store returns or courts if need be. In this virtual world we have to suck up the loss.

What does this have to do with this discussion? nothing..but you can start your own thread about it.

[Katherine Heartsong]

30 minutes ago, Silas Merlin said:

Another alternative to gachas would be.... subscription.
Paying a subscription to a given creator would give you all the items they produce that month, or the next, and there would be no other way to acquire those items at any time in the future.

Would that be illegal because you would not know what you will get when you pay the subscription ?

Aren't you an artist though? I am.

Though subscriptions are interesting in some ways (my daughter subscribed to knitting patterns once, and got a package of 10 new patterns each month), that model could never work for me as an artist because each of my paintings? There is only one of them. That's what gives them value (besides a person's judgement of the beauty of the piece), IRL and here in SL.

I set my model up in SL to mimic RL, not selling prints/copies but one of a kind. So subscriptions do make sense for some sellers, I'd wager, very thoughtful idea.  Just as long as everyone subscribing gets exactly the same things.

[I just saw this has been addressed multiple times. Everyone needs to get the same stuff. hey, I got something right today!!!]

Edited August 4, 2021 by Katherine Heartsong

[Gwin LeShelle]

7 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Not arguing just using your post to inject this into the convo:

https://venturebeat.com/2012/05/18/complete-gacha-illegal/

Kompu gachas or "complete gacha" as it's called in English is another thing than gacha capsule machines and thats what's been banned and what I said.

I don't think other countries had these in this form, so maybe people just don't understand what I said. "Complete gacha" is "kompu gacha" and that's what they banned (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

Edited August 4, 2021 by Gwin LeShelle
Typos are strong in this one 😅

[Vihmakass]

Beside 7Seas fishing is there more fishing games where you buy worms to catch fish/lindens with random value.

Worms have dif prizes and costly ones give you more lindens but you never know how many. In those games you buy worm to get random amount of lindens aka outcome is unknown.

Btw. gachas are kind of easy to remade into skill game - just make vendor what is like shooting rink. Bullets cost same to all and all prizes are up on poster with point cost. Targets on shooting rink are moving around - so it is skill game.

And some....eee...a looooot pages ago was talk about reporting gachas what are up after 01.09.21

There is one problem- you can report but outcome is .....near zero.

I and mine friends have reported one troll neighbour...nothing has changed.

I reported one porn gallery whats "art" was visible outside on M rated mainland.....nothing has changed.

So...reporting is gambling itself - it might work on few cases but usually doesnt....so maybe it is banned already  

Edited August 4, 2021 by Vihmakass

[silevera]

As a consumer, I feel I have give my L$2 on the debate on "conveyor belt" vendors (and any other "replacements" for gacha vendors).

The vocal majority here appears to be split into those who don't want gacha to die and are desperately looking for solutions that are as close to the spirit of gacha as is possible without violating the new policy, and those who want gacha and all traces of it to die and oppose any attempts to continue their sale using a new mechanic.

I am curious what percentage of the people suggesting the new mechanisms are actual gacha sellers, and how many are consumers. I myself am a consumer, I had literally just come from a gacha event when I heard the news, and I was pretty upset about it.

However, as much as I don't want gachas to die, the decision has been made by LL, and I agree with an earlier comment that suggested letting them go gracefully. Gachas are a form of gambling, and I understand that that is why they are being banned; but to me that is also what makes them exciting.

The thrill of having a chance to get what I want on the first pull, or even getting a rare -- regardless of whether that is an item I even want -- were a big part of the appeal of gachas. While randomness is part of that mechanic, that aspect in and of itself is not what makes gachas fun to play.

I do not see any advantage in trying to maintain this random aspect in selling the items that were previously gachas. While in fact I don't feel like there should be a "replacement" for the gacha mechanism at all, I also don't think that the suggested replacements benefit anyone.

While some on the opposing side describe the conveyor belt mechanism as "gacha with extra steps", I don't think this is an accurate description. As long as you know exactly what you're paying for this is not "gacha"; in my opinion this is just a "vendor with extra steps". Waiting for the item you want to pop up excites no one, but in addition there are issues with this mechanic regardless of how it is implemented:

• If you, or someone has to buy the current item before the next one shows up, less desired items will make sales halt until someone comes along who will buy the item.
• If the idea is to force you to buy a less desired item just to move the vendor along, or so you can get a rare that the vendor shows coming up next, that is just scummy, and I would agree with anyone who says such vendors should also be banned.
• If the vendor moves on to the next item on its own after a set period of time, that is a usability issue at best. If I don't respond quick enough I will lose the item I wanted to get, and unless it blanks and doesn't accept payment for a time before moving on, I could end up accidentally buying an item I didn't intend to -- which would put it right back into what LL is banning with this new policy.
• Presuming all issues are worked out, you are still just left with a vendor that has just been made more complicated for the sake of retaining the "spirit" of gacha.

I will not make any suggestions as to what should be done with existing gacha items, as my personal opinion is that once the policy goes into effect, gachas should just go away and creators will have to move on to other business. While fatpacks may work for some sets, I will not buy a fatpack just to get a single item I want out of the set. And these fatpacks are usually sold as no transfer, so I would be stuck with items that I paid for but neither want nor can gift to someone who might care for it.

However, I do believe that one aspect of gachas can be kept if items are sold individually, and that is rarity. This can simply be done by actually making it a limited edition -- I for one would definitely be interested in buying a unique item that might be going away soon, and I have done so in the past. But those could not be transferable, or it will just make people snatch them up to sell at a premium.

[Rowan Amore]

18 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

the "odds" here are versus getting the rare from the chair for free....

 

And still 'odds' are involved, so yep, still gambling.  Paying for something you don't want on the chance of getting something you do want even if that something you want is free.  You're still paying for a random thing beforehand.

Ultimately, they will decide whether things such as these are a scheme to skirt the new ban.  

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, Sapphire Dakota said:

Because when a man hires me as an escort, he knows exactly what he's getting.

 

This is subject to who's interpretation? The escort or the client?  They don't know exactly what they are getting. The have an "idea" but not exactly.  Hmm kinda like a Gacha.

[Vihmakass]

11 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Phone or cam sex, as far as I know, is not illegal.  Anyone with a citation which says it is, please do comment.  Any escorting done in SL is basically phone or cam sex.  You are paying for a service.   No one is actually being assaulted either.  Annoying, yes but not damaging unless you're in a combat area using some kind of meter and even then, nothing has actually been damaged.

In mine country /in borders of EU/sexual services are illegal and considered crime.

[Finite]

59 minutes ago, Jo Trimble said:

Watching my Linden Balance drop and my inventory fill will doubles of items I did not want. Then looking for a buyer to flog my doubles to.

 

That sounds fun, why is nobody doing that in real life I wonder?

 

 

 

I think I have a different perception of my linden balance than others do. I don't have a revenue source for lindens so I only look at lindens as money I had already spent on the game. Since lindens you buy have no value. Only net lindens earned does. It's kind of like buying tokens at an arcade.

And for the 2nd part, probably because we are not playing with real money. Any lindens we spend in-game is money we had already lost. What we do with it and what we end up with doesn't really matter. None of it has real world value outside of maybe buying and selling virtual property.

I don't see much difference between a GACHA and say trading cards. Trading cards you don't know what you are getting. However they at least list the odds which is something I had wished GACHA's would have done. It probably would have lessoned the animosity some have towards it likely after getting burned by some low odds machine which, at least in my experience, wasn't the norm. I can only think of 2 vendors off the top of my head that I wouldn't touch again of all the ones I've played. I found most to be reasonable.

I have alts, I send doubles to them or I put them in the market place. Or I trade with friends who need stuff to finish sets. Sometimes I don't even post the extras on MP or I do when I come around to it. It can be a tedious and monotonous process to post them. I don't think I've ever profited from playing GACHA. It's nice to recoup some of what I spent but that's not why I played. I played because A. I liked the product or B. I liked the vendor and want them to make more things. If you were to look at my store it's mostly vendors I like to shop at. There's not too many random things in there from random stores. Gabriel, Val'more, Dura. These are some of my favorite places. Sometimes they do gacha sometimes they don't. Doesn't matter to me how I buy their things.  And I don't typically go for the juggler since I am just looking to recoup and not expecting to make any profits.

I think people who play a gacha for only the purpose of profiting or people who only want 1 item from it are the ones who have the most bitter feelings towards it. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Finite

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Can we stop with the whataboutism already? This is about gachas not about any other activity on the grid that has not even a remote connection to gachas.

Thank you.

[Deathly Fright]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

And still 'odds' are involved, so yep, still gambling.  Paying for something you don't want on the chance of getting something you do want even if that something you want is free.  You're still paying for a random thing beforehand.

Ultimately, they will decide whether things such as these are a scheme to skirt the new ban.  

 

there are odds for normal name chairs as well, if you want to get the rare item for free you can. there isn't any money required, just like name chairs.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Deathly Fright

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Deathly Fright said:

there are odds for normal name chairs as well, if you want to get the item for free you can. there isn't any money required, just like name chairs.

But ALL items in the chair are free.  All you put in is time standing around waiting for something you might want.  You don't pay for one thing on a lucky chair hoping the next item up is the free rare.

11 minutes ago, silevera said:

If the idea is to force you to buy a less desired item just to move the vendor along, or so you can get a rare that the vendor shows coming up next, that is just scummy, and I would agree with anyone who says such vendors should also be banned.

This is exactly my problem with the lucky chair idea also.  Paying for something or probably many things,  to get something free is still scummy.

[Deathly Fright]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

But ALL items in the chair are free.  All you put in is time standing around waiting for something you might want.  You don't pay for one thing on a lucky chair hoping the next item up is the free rare.

all of the items, including the rare would be available to avis with the letter the chair is looking for, including rares. the odds of the rare being given for free are rare, but the chance of getting anything in the conveyer for free is there.

[Tetsuryu Vlodovic]

Here's a wild idea, how about just selling your stuff normally instead of trying to nickle and dime your customers to death!?