New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Komarimono]

2 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

how is the chance of getting a super rare fish after getting to level 5, which you have to buy into, not gambling?

though I think I'm misunderstanding the fishing, so ignore me if I'm wrong.

There are no bonuses after level 5.  After level 5, you get titles, tells you on this page as well.

Quoted from their page: "Here are the complete statistics for how often you catch fish, and what rarity you catch for Level 0 through Level 5. Any level past 5 has the same chances as Level 5. Levels beyond 5 do not improve your chances -- they just earn you cooler and cooler titles."

[Rathgrith027]

Just now, So Whimsy said:

 

1 minute ago, So Whimsy said:

  3 minutes ago, ZacharyFen said:

If Prize Boxes are considered gambling to LL then i guess we should get free linden since buying linden is a gamble and chance game.

By that logic, going to the Bureau de change when you visit another country to get their currency is gambling.

[Deathly Fright]

3 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

There are no bonuses after level 5.  After level 5, you get titles, tells you on this page as well.

Quoted from their page: "Here are the complete statistics for how often you catch fish, and what rarity you catch for Level 0 through Level 5. Any level past 5 has the same chances as Level 5. Levels beyond 5 do not improve your chances -- they just earn you cooler and cooler titles."

ok but you have to buy to level 5 right? or am I wrong?

edited to add... how does the "AquaDash Arcade Game" work?

Edited August 4, 2021 by Deathly Fright

[Silent Mistwalker]

56 minutes ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

Kompu gachas or "complete gacha" as it's called in English is another thing than gacha capsule machines and thats what's been banned and what I said.

I don't think other countries had these in this form, so maybe people just don't understand what I said. "Complete gacha" is "kompu gacha" and that's what they banned (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

I did say I was not trying to argue just injecting the article into the convo so other people will understand what happened in 2012.

I still stand by what I said though because (in general terms) they did start in Japan and Japan did enact legislation (the first country to do so) to regulate them. 

[Katherine Heartsong]

7 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

I don't wanna sound like that person...  But I am going to sound like that person.  If you need to rely on exploiting others to sell your product to make an income that is bearable, maybe it's time to step away from SL for a bit or take a pause and let your creative juices flow.

[Komarimono]

4 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

ok but you have to buy to level 5 right? or am I wrong?

You can purchase bait for XP, correct.  But you buy the bait, strictly for that XP.  I know you're trying to fish for a way to make it seem like a Gacha (See what I did there?  Haa!  Ok, anyway..), but you're just buying bait for the XP, nothing more.  Once you reach level 5?  No longer need any bait ever again, unless you want to get more XP for some funny racing along the leader board.

[Silent Mistwalker]

41 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

all of the items, including the rare would be available to avis with the letter the chair is looking for, including rares. the odds of the rare being given for free are rare, but the chance of getting anything in the conveyer for free is there.

Available ONLY to avatars with the name beginning with a specific letter. Not ALL avatars. There is the problem. NOT ALL.

[Deathly Fright]

2 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

You can purchase bait for XP, correct.  But you buy the bait, strictly for that XP.  I know you're trying to fish for a way to make it seem like a Gacha (See what I did there?  Haa!  Ok, anyway..), but you're just buying bait for the XP, nothing more.  Once you reach level 5?  No longer need any bait ever again, unless you want to get more XP for some funny racing along the leader board.

but you still have to buy to get to level 5 though which is the only time you get a super duper rare or whatever?

[Rosa Hexem]

Since I think earlier my "it's not technically gacha because you can always win for free" thing got a bit confused I'm posting a diagram I made here to demonstrate how it hypothetically skirts around the rules. I have done it in the visual medium of our ancestors: Microsoft Word.

Technically this is just one hypothetical scenario but this is how I see it hypothetically skirts anti-gacha laws by effectively playing by the same rules as the fishing game but just being extremely unfair about them. The ugly fish in this case is an item that is almost wholly undesirable, regular fish are common items, rare fish are rare items.

As you can see in a way the loophole exploiting vendor is technically just a bit fairer than gacha because even if you don't pay you have an astronomically slim chance of getting a desirable item, and yet it's clearly still just another form of gacha even though it could be said to just be spending money to get better odds.

Would this actually be an appealing concept for people to engage in outside this hypothetical? Frankly if gacha was then it should be the same appeal just depending on how you frame it, in fact it's gacha with a chance of winning a free good item if you're super lucky, though obviously it couldn't be called gacha because that's a bad word now.

But yeah, here's my unreasonably fleshed out edge case that will likely just get treated as a special case by LL if found and banned because it's clearly just what I described it as, but still yeah.

[Deathly Fright]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Available ONLY to avatars with the name beginning with a specific letter. Not ALL avatars. There is the problem. NOT ALL.

so you also have a problem with name chairs?

[maddisonave]

1 minute ago, Komarimono said:

I don't wanna sound like that person...  But I am going to sound like that person.  If you need to rely on exploiting others to sell your product to make an income that is bearable, maybe it's time to step away from SL for a bit or take a pause and let your creative juices flow.

Many creators did just fine without Gacha.  Many that were doing fine, hopped on the Gacha wagon since it brings in massive income, since people in SL love their fashion.  People will spends ludicrous amounts of $L to get that item for their look.  So creators took the Gacha option to exploit this.

But then can't the same be said for those that play the gachas?  Exploiting is a pretty strong statement, maybe its time for those people to step away from SL if they let gacha get them in trouble?  It takes a bank account and the ability to buy Lindens to play a gacha, isn't everyone here supposed to be an adult?  The creators put hours and money into making their items, they're the ones with the most to lose here.  There should at least be a discussion first? 

[LittleMe Jewell]

It is actually good having everyone post about their perceived loophole around things.  It makes it easier for Patch and Team to be able to name specifics in their FAQ, rather than folks later saying "It did not specifically say ABC, so..."

[Komarimono]

Just now, maddisonave said:

But then can't the same be said for those that play the gachas?  Exploiting is a pretty strong statement, maybe its time for those people to step away from SL if they let gacha get them in trouble?  It takes a bank account and the ability to buy Lindens to play a gacha, isn't everyone here supposed to be an adult?  The creators put hours and money into making their items, they're the ones with the most to lose here.  There should at least be a discussion first? 

What matters is that Gachas are going, even if people don't dislike it.  It's quite easy to try a few times, and try and get that item then just be left upset and give up.  That is actually how most Gacha experiences are.  But then there are whales, who must have that piece, and these are also people being exploited.  In both demographics, the consumer is being exploited, both left with items that have little to no worth except for maybe that one item that wanted.

[Deathly Fright]

Just now, LittleMe Jewell said:

It is actually good having everyone post about their perceived loophole around things.  It makes it easier for Patch and Team to be able to name specifics in their FAQ, rather than folks later saying "It did not specifically say ABC, so..."

this post is super frustrating because this is what I've been doing the whole time, but people have acted like I'm just trying to find ways to put a "toe over the line"

[Experimental Scientist]

15 hours ago, Silas Merlin said:

 

What will happen at an event like Arcade or Epiphany where there's maybe 20 people trying the machine at the same time? If it switches the prize anyone someone buys an item, if one of those 20 tries to buy a rare and then gets a different one because someone else sniped it, it's already non-compliant. And that's not even considering the added impact of lag.

I know where you got the idea, and it works well for Overwatch, but in Overwatch every player is getting lootboxes individually on their own PC, with no else joining in.

[Eren Padar]

Something of interest to note in this:   there are almost as many SL residents against this solution as there are for this solution.  The population is fairly evenly divided.

This sends one very clear message:   This is likely not the best solution.   When you have this many people against something, it often pays to re-consider possible alternatives. 

For example right off the top of my head... allow Gachas, but:

* Have specific rules involved in their presentation and administration (for example, they're required to sell only different models of the same product, rather than "junk" along with "good stuff"). 

* The presentation texture must be very visible, accurate and obvious in what is being sold.  (ie, "fine print" not allowed)

* Selling items of a significantly different nature in the same Gacha is not allowed  (for example, a Porche Ultra Sportscar and a cheap VW bug). 

I'm not saying these are "the" solution here.  They're just concepts that come short of making Gachas illegal in entirety.

On the other hand, making them entirely illegal will certainly solve the problem entirely... until someone comes up with the next unethical scheme to rip off SL users.  Because you can bet your L$ that is going to happen.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, maddisonave said:

  There should at least be a discussion first? 

No, because it is a LEGAL issue for LL.

This is not about anyone getting hurt feelings because they did not get the pink tutu that they wanted or people complaining about the addiction (though that does spur many of the RL laws) or about anything else the Residents think.  

It is all about LL and them staying out of court.

[Deathly Fright]

2 minutes ago, Experimental Scientist said:

What will happen at an event like Arcade or Epiphany where there's maybe 20 people trying the machine at the same time? If it switches the prize anyone someone buys an item, if one of those 20 tries to buy a rare and then gets a different one because someone else sniped it, it's already non-compliant. And that's not even considering the added impact of lag.

I know where you got the idea, and it works well for Overwatch, but in Overwatch every player is getting lootboxes individually on their own PC, with no else joining in.

lock the vendor to one avi until they either tell it they are done or it has a timer and have multiple vendors if it's a busy event

Edited August 4, 2021 by Deathly Fright

[Rosa Hexem]

Just now, Deathly Fright said:

this post is super frustrating because this is what I've been doing the whole time, but people have acted like I'm just trying to find ways to put a "toe over the line"

I feel that but the post you were replying to at least highlights that some people are here actually trying to do this whole loophole finding "things to be banned or that will replace gacha" thing. I said earlier but people are coming here emotionally charged and ready to butt heads in an online argument over if gacha was good or bad. We're just going to have to persevere that and focus on the constructive posts.

[Maitimo]

36 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

I think you're confusing things, or trying to change the goal posts too far.  Conveyor is already established as Gacha like, and more then likely not allowed.  And the Fishing game, gives you simple dinky little prim fish.  It's more a casual simulation game. 

7 Seas fishing allows creators to put whatever they like in the water (well actually in the server barrel). This was designed to accommodate custom-made fish and rods, but it can be literally anything. There's nothing (yet) to stop a creator taking their gacha content and sticking it in a fish barrel, and hosting a fishing contest to catch them.  Aside from the fact that the creator wouldn't get any money from it, unless they made their fishing area pay-to-enter.

[Gwin LeShelle]

13 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I did say I was not trying to argue just injecting the article into the convo so other people will understand what happened in 2012.

I still stand by what I said though because (in general terms) they did start in Japan and Japan did enact legislation (the first country to do so) to regulate them. 

Oh I totally understood I am not arguing either 💜 but many people often confused "complete gacha" in articles with completely every type of gacha so I just wanted to clarify that point for readers ♪ \(^ω^\ ) 

[Yhishara Cerise]

1 hour ago, Silas Merlin said:

Another alternative to gachas would be.... subscription.
Paying a subscription to a given creator would give you all the items they produce that month, or the next, and there would be no other way to acquire those items at any time in the future.

Would that be illegal because you would not know what you will get when you pay the subscription ?

You mean like joining a group for $250 L with the promise of group gifts only to find the next group gift something you don't like or want?  You might like every other gift except that one.  

[Deathly Fright]

1 minute ago, Viche Hexem said:

I feel that but the post you were replying to at least highlights that some people are here actually trying to do this whole loophole finding "things to be banned or that will replace gacha" thing. I said earlier but people are coming here emotionally charged and ready to butt heads in an online argument over if gacha was good or bad. We're just going to have to persevere that and focus on the constructive posts.

I think I need to friend you inworld, you are my kind of person 💕

[Experimental Scientist]

1 minute ago, Deathly Fright said:

lock the vendor to one avi until they either tell it they are done or it has a timer

That's gonna go over well in an event that already has a full sim for a week or two in a row. 😛

[Deathly Fright]

Just now, Experimental Scientist said:

That's gonna go over well in an event that already has a full sim for a week or two in a row. 😛

put them also in the observation sims? I never said it was a great alternative lol