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This is just so typical and telling of how the modern world works. Something gets outlawed, and instead of asking the question "how can we comply", the question is, "how can we toe the line".

This is why we can't have nice things. You and I both know that it's not about the method in which randomness is doled out, but the verifiability of the scripts involved.

Instead of just complying, you're asking for the rules and regulations to be delineated precisely. Well, be careful what you wish for because you might up losing much more than just gacha if you insist on them leaving no loopholes.

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2 hours ago, Viche Hexem said:

I'll be honest and say a lot of people pushing back against the conveyor system here are, admittedly, just against the idea of gacha alltogether and honestly it's not like I don't get that. It's just are you really going to be happy with anything that replaces gacaha if the primary appeal behind gacha was something you utterly detested? As for people who think they conveyor system just isn't the same as gacha and there's hitches that just make it too annoying to engage with, we're simply not going to have the same thing as gacha again and big compromises are going to have to be made that will make it seem especially unappealing in the light of gacha being removed.

It's just with all that, what good is all of this cynicsm going to do if ultimately neither group here is going to get what they want, all gacha or no gacha? I'm not saying you can't pick holes in new ideas, you're free to express yourselves even if I think the linden's intentions for this thread were less "vent about gacha" and more "damage control the loss of gacha", but really if you're not willing to accept it's not going to leave you wholly satisfied then you're not going to be coming away with even a compromise you like? If we don't start discussing the least worst options now you'll just be left with a big fat nothing or someone else will do it anyway and that'll become the new normal.

I am not a consumer that is true. What I do not understand is Why trying to make something similar to an illegal practice? Just because oh, it's edgy, but it's legal! Why would a creator try to make money no matter what with a system that is so close to what's being banned? It's time to let go, gachas are now illegal and that's it. Yes it is not easy to move on, but that's also what is asked of us now, creators and consumers. When something seems too good to be true, it probably is. That just has been proven once again.

Edited by VergilISparda
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2 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Yes, it's known to you by the time of purchase, but you had to pay to randomize the future opportunity to buy that item, which means it's literally just gacha again.

With gacha the randomness occurs in the exchange of purchasing an item, you don't know what you're going to get.

With the conveyor, you do know what you're going to get but you don't know what's going to come up on the conveyor next. When the new thing does pop up it is up to the user if they want to purchase the new item and thusly they always know what they're purchasing and they are not forced by any means into buying the new item.

Your issue with it is that it's just "gacha again" but it's not literally gacha by any means, that being said this is also what I mean by people against the idea of gacha alltogether, or alternatively maybe against  the idea of LL implomenting the new policy because they feel it's arbitrary and pointless. This policy is just the new reality of the situation, if arbitrary extra steps skirting around verbage is what does the job then I'm sure LL is just as eager to see that loophole discovered as we are, hence the discussion.

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3 minutes ago, VergilISparda said:

I am not a consumer that is true. What I do not understand is Why trying to make something similar to an illegal practice? Just because oh, it's edgy, but it's legal! Why would a creator try to make money no matter what with a system that is so close to what's being banned? It's time to let go, gachas are now illegal and that's it. Yes it is not easy to move on, but that's also what is asked of us now, creators and consumers. When something seems too good to be true, it probably is. That just has been proven once again.

As I said before, I think regardless of how much you like or dislike gacha something will come to replace it. Maybe me having a default assumption that something replacing gacha is the realistic scenario just as skill gaming effectively replaced gambling is an issue here because people don't want to look at it that way. Hell, I probably feel about as similarly about people trying to e-lawyer LL out of making the choice as you do about me assuming there will be something that replaces gacha so I can't complain too much I just really need to adjust my expectations.

Like if I might be cynical I feel like if anything this might just be where LL made a thread for people to have a little tizzy about the whole thing and still feel like they're heard while they force everyone into whatever the new normal is, I know they're having direct discussions with the creators who make use of gacha so again, maybe I should accept that this isn't the best venue to have the discourse I want about this.

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2 minutes ago, Viche Hexem said:

With gacha the randomness occurs in the exchange of purchasing an item, you don't know what you're going to get.

With the conveyor, you do know what you're going to get but you don't know what's going to come up on the conveyor next. When the new thing does pop up it is up to the user if they want to purchase the new item and thusly they always know what they're purchasing and they are not forced by any means into buying the new item.

Your issue with it is that it's just "gacha again" but it's not literally gacha by any means, that being said this is also what I mean by people against the idea of gacha alltogether, or alternatively maybe against  the idea of LL implomenting the new policy because they feel it's arbitrary and pointless. This policy is just the new reality of the situation, if arbitrary extra steps skirting around verbage is what does the job then I'm sure LL is just as eager to see that loophole discovered as we are, hence the discussion.

I think Patch has said (either in this thread or the addenda to the  blog post) that they'll be exploring various ideas like this with LL's legal advisors, and will presumably be guided by what they have to say about conveyor belts or anything else.

Best to wait for the next update to the FAQ, I think, rather than speculate, and then ask more questions at the time if necessary.

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Considering Patch just called the Conveyor system a scheme, I'm going assume that's being considered a Gacha as well.

 

And yes, while Gacha originated in my home country, it was also banned in my home country almost 10 years ago now.  People trying to... well...  Come up with "Clever Abuse of Mechanics" are just going to make it worse in the end, with even more strict policies set in place that could affect even more over all.

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Just now, Innula Zenovka said:

I think Patch has said (either in this thread or the addenda to the  blog post) that they'll be exploring various ideas like this with LL's legal advisors, and will presumably be guided by what they have to say about conveyor belts or anything else.

Best to wait for the next update to the FAQ, I think, rather than speculate, and then ask more questions at the time if necessary.

At this point, yeah, if only because the amount of vitriol people are hurling around at the mere idea with it still being on the fence just makes this anything but a constructive discussion. I'll wait till they get back and work on something a bit more concrete and then I'll get back to talking about it, after all it's still true that I shouldn't put all my bets on one system when it could still be deemed not-ok.

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2 minutes ago, Viche Hexem said:

At this point, yeah, if only because the amount of vitriol people are hurling around at the mere idea with it still being on the fence just makes this anything but a constructive discussion. I'll wait till they get back and work on something a bit more concrete and then I'll get back to talking about it, after all it's still true that I shouldn't put all my bets on one system when it could still be deemed not-ok.

What "vitriol"? It'd seem to be like most are just immediately recognizing that it's practically identical to the thing being banned, and questioning why it'd be allowed given that the original was banned. There's no real emotion involved here, just pattern recognition.

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5 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

Considering Patch just called the Conveyor system a scheme, I'm going assume that's being considered a Gacha as well.

 

And yes, while Gacha originated in my home country, it was also banned in my home country almost 10 years ago now.  People trying to... well...  Come up with "Clever Abuse of Mechanics" are just going to make it worse in the end, with even more strict policies set in place that could affect even more over all.

It's not. I live in Japan, and they only banned kompu gachas x3 gacha itself is still perfectly legal.

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8 hours ago, ZacharyFen said:

PEOPLE GAMBLING INCLUDES LOSING MONEY YOUR NOT LOSING MONEY FROM GATCHAS THEY ARE PRIZE MACHINE WHERE YOU WIN EVERY TIME AND CAN RESALE THE ITEMS YOU HAVE DUPLICATES OF. Was this clear enough for folks to understand or do i need to go down a few grades.

 

It can be called gambling or it can be called a fun game or it can be called a number of other things.

What it all boils down to is that LL has been told by LEGAL EXPERTS that they need to stop allowing it.

If you disagree, go argue with all of the lawyers, politicians, etc.... that are equating it with gambling and created the laws that LL must follow.

Was that clear enough or do I need to go down a few grades.

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People at this stage are not only trying to beat a dead horse, their trying to dress it up in a costume so it no longer resembles what it actually is.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn't matter what you call it, its still a duck.....  

If you have to pay lindens into it, if it doesnt let you choose EXACTLY what your getting back... if it contains even the slightest trace of randomness ... then its going to be banned under the gacha rules...

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It's a curious thing, people wanting to replace the whole system, especially with a system that carries too many similarities. Are people unaware that these similarities would likely put us right back in the same boat, if not sooner, later? Why is there such a desire to replace these systems with any system, much less one that shares similarities? The much easier solution is to go back to selling items the way we did before gachas were even a thing. Things can still be sold no copy yes transfer, if people want to keep the reselling alive, it's not like that option disappears, lol. It's not the most desired perms option, but it is still an option.

Yes, selling things the way every merchant did for years before gacha became a thing in sl may require some more work for some people. It won't require a ton of work for all people, but it will require some work of varying levels for people. There is still nothing stopping merchants, creators and even resellers from selling their wares in the same way(s) we always have. People talk about the prims it would require to sell them. Vendors do not require a ton of prims, so, yes, people could put things in vendors, we even have 1 prim vendor options. MP requires no prims at all, so that is also a viable option, as it's always been.

Let's say a merchant has a set of plush animals out in a gacha right now. Yes, they will have to take individual pictures of those items, but they won't have to repackage those items (already packaged), remake them(unless they choose to change perms, that's on them to decide, and it's still an easy change). So the work involved would be setting up a vendor, uploading the pics, and loading the vendor. The prices can be comparable to what they were in the gacha, or they can be whatever the creator wants them to be. If people desire the items, they'll sell, if they do not, they won't, just like they always have. The market dictates desire, with or without gachas, it always has. It may be, or seem, a bit shaky for a while, but sl isn't going to end over this. I have difficulty believing most who say they'll leave sl over it. I'm sure they don't care I have difficulty believing them. Will some leave? Maybe, they very well may come back, they may also not, but most aren't going anywhere. Gacha isn't the be all end all of most people's sl existence, even when it plays a big role. 

Yes, it's work to change how things are done, can't deny that. It's the same work everyone put in before, the same work merchants that don't sell gachas use now. It's not going to kill anyone to put this work in, some may do it at a slower pace, but that's okay too. If you can't get it done in the allotted time, take your time and just remove your machines and items that you can't get done in time until you can. You could always put them up on MP too, which really isn't as difficult as some might think, especially if you're selling similar items (type up your info, adjust per individual item, copy paste, makes it so much easier to do).  Hundreds of people, maybe more, are likely doing that right now. Every creator and reseller I personally know, is working on this right now. A couple of them are increasing the cost of the individual items, a little bit, to help offset the fact that people won't be paying money for stuff they don't want anymore (they tend to call these bloated sales, they're well aware of what they are). The others are all listing those same items (ones currently in machines) at the pull price, while considering how to price new items from there. I think these are reasonable options, and there's not much reason why most others can't do the same.

The resellers aren't affected by this work at all, they can continue to sell their purchased gachas at whatever price they want to, until they run out. They don't have to put in even a tiny portion of the work, the world turns as it has for ages for them, nothing changes unless they run out of stock. But that was never truly going to last forever, reselling anything in sl has always been a bumpy ride. Gacha reselling just made it seem like it was a viable "way of life" for lack of better term on my part. 

I do feel for people who may get hit a bit harder, people who cannot seem to sell their wares without some kind of gacha system in place. I am not sure they will have the same problem they had in the past when everyone is restricted to the same selling methods, though it may take some time. No one is going to expect to see gacha when no one is allowed to use them, which should help. It really sucks for anyone actually negatively affected (and I really hope they can find a solution, so they can stick around, I very much do), but I don't think most people fall into this category, they just think they do. 

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13 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

What "vitriol"? It'd seem to be like most are just immediately recognizing that it's practically identical to the thing being banned, and questioning why it'd be allowed given that the original was banned. There's no real emotion involved here, just pattern recognition.

 

13 minutes ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

Where's the vitriol?

look back a few pages on how I have been treated for arguing for the new conveyor system

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13 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

Indeed. But your article showed what I said. kompu gachas banned that's a different thing. And yes we ( my son and I or my daughter and I) play a gacha machine a few times a months (like after grocery shopping or such) and there are plenty of stores here with it and in the airports too :)https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210430/p2a/00m/0na/031000c I tried finding one recent English article for you ^ ^ but I don't want to derail this thread further.

I really think it's ok for SL to get rid of this mechanism, I just wonder what will happen to stores that have gacha as their overall sales method x3 honestly I'm mostly worried about one of my favest stores in SL ...Amitomo haha I wonder if those just say bye and leave or if they will do the hard work and change every gacha into single vendors...this must be so much work and that until the end of the months seems so painful ><

Edited by Gwin LeShelle
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24 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Generally, laws are enforced according to the spirit, not the letter. And all I can say is I'm pretty thankful for that.

while I would agree generally, this isn't the case when it comes to money and business.

for example, gatchas are gambling, but were/are allowed in many places gambling isn't

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I get it, a conveyor belt system - even has a Gacha Gacha (slot machine) you can lose repeatedly at, explained starting at 2:30 :

35 Plates and 7 tries later they still didn't get the prize.  Just another idea for Patch's team...

The world is not only Belgium and the Netherlands...

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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3 minutes ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

Indeed. But your article showed what I said. kompu gachas banned that's a different thing. And yes we ( my son and I or my daughter and I) play a gacha machine a few times a months (like after grocery shopping or such) and there are plenty of stores here with it and in the airports too

I had no idea Gacha's were a real life thing.  How very terribly sad that people are taken advantage of this way.

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5 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I had no idea Gacha's were a real life thing.  How very terribly sad that people are taken advantage of this way.

It's just toys lol no need to be sad. We look which one looks the cutest and play one time yay a little niknak for his shelf collection of random toys. But kompu gachas were a whole different thing. 

 

In SL I noticed the same unhealthy pattern in some friends, that felt they needed to complete sets, or get a certain rare. So yeah I think it's a good thing to get away from it.

Edited by Gwin LeShelle
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I thought the gacha machines were just like those bubbly gum machines my mother never let me put my money in when I was a kid (because dogs peed up them, not because they were a device for gambling). Of course, when I was a little older and had my own pocket money, I made a beeline for this machine that sat with another outside our local shop. There was no gamble as far as I could see, just like in Second Life. You put in really a small amount of money and got something back out.

The beautiful thing about the in-world gacha machines has been having transferable items that people have put onto their own market stalls, just like a garage/car boot sale. I thought that added to a sense of community whenever I've seen this happen.  

If it is gambling because some of the machines have a particularly desirable item inside just one of the 'eggs', then yes, it's gambling, but surely that element can be removed, and it can just be a machine full of regular items all of the same value. I've really enjoyed popping a dollar or two into these machines over the years, just to cheer myself up with a little surprise on a rainy day. 

Where is the harm in that?

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13 minutes ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

Indeed. But your article showed what I said. kompu gachas banned that's a different thing. And yes we ( my son and I or my daughter and I) play a gacha machine a few times a months (like after grocery shopping or such) and there are plenty of stores here with it and in the airports too :)https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210430/p2a/00m/0na/031000c I tried finding one recent English article for you ^ ^ but I don't want to derail this thread further.

I really think it's ok for SL to get rid of this mechanism, I just wonder what will happen to stores that have gacha as their overall sales method x3 honestly I'm mostly worried about one of my favest stores in SL ...Amitomo haha I wonder if those just say bye and leave or if they will do the hard work and change every gacha into single vendors...this must be so much work and that until the end of the months seems so painful ><

Was responding in the case of loot boxes and online purchases covered in the legal document.  Capsules will never go away, but capsules are far different then we what have with random loot boxes and Gachas in video games.

It's still a massive controversy over there, and the way the things are panning out, with even game companies like Capcom standing behind the removal and ban of them, don't expect them to be seen as legal for gaming for much longer.

https://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/data/pdf/annual/2020/annual_2020_01.pdf

Page 28 and 50 on the PDF for source, using the English translated version for all to view.

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3 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

it can just be a machine full of regular items all of the same value.

The value of something is always in the eye of the purchaser.  Even if every item in the "gum machine" is a single dress, but in multiple colors, some of those colors will be seen as more valuable than others -- and every individual person will have a different take on which colors are the valuable ones.

Whether or not it is exactly equal to gambling is really irrelevant.  The law of various locales have said that Gachas are illegal - or that they will be greatly regulated.  And the list of locales looking at severely regulating them or banning them outright is growing.

Given LL's hard stance on the 30-day window, something is definitely happening now and they need to deal with it.

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So do Breedables then fall into a different category than the 7seas?

The Item does not work properly without the purchase of additional Items. I.E Food & Vitamins,etc. So if you want the intended outcome of the name of the Animal (Breedable). You the buyer need to Buy into the system and keep buying into the system. So the Item the animal births isn't free. It also is "random" well to what is on the server and what is spits out. If the Birthed animal/item cannot contact the server it's literally just a box it spit out for you. You are just Circumventing paying for that Item that you birthed. To then turn around and sell it for more or less, because they are transferable.

 

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