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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well maybe the new owners are the ones pushing for cleaning up this stuff which leads to the question of what will be next. Other question is why the State of California hasn't gone after S/L or many of the other gaming companies that have lootboxes or gachas. From what I am seeing, it is only Belgium that has done so and as a result a number of games are no longer accessible for people from there.

I am not talking about the amount of cases whatsoever. I am simply stating that this regulation was already in place before gachas popped up in SL. And as it well explained in this regulation, law what is considered an illegal gambling device, it only makes me wonder why the attorneys/lawers of Linden Labs didn't pick up on them earlier and even why Linden Labs didn't allow them from start?

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7 minutes ago, Leigh Tharnaby said:

Don't worry, some creators are planning to do that.

Not so funny now, is it?

For me it s ok i mean if u want the whole fatpack and the set whort is a good price...look at DRD if u want 1 set no transfer about 7000L if not spin or trade or whatever and u pay 75L each item

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8 minutes ago, xAmbiguityx said:

All of my products are Copy and Modify unless they are a Gacha.  If the items are a Gacha they are Modify/Transfer unless I have used a voucher system for redemption.  Redeemable Gachas are transferable but once you collect the item they become no copy/modify/no transfer. For some items HUDs are available, for most it all just comes in a bundle and you can click through it, it really depends on the nature of the item.

Aw man. It's the no copy that kills it for me. Of course, I've been in SL a long time and know my way around the build tools so if I screw up, all I have to do is rezz a new copy and (ugh) start over. Others have never touched the build tools and don't know to just rezz a new copy. 

*grumbles* Humans *sighs*

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Its funny the only people who say its a "Gamble" are the one who pick and choose everything and withh dump loads of L just to get it, while the inteligent ones who say its not are happy just to get whatever they are getting, dont complain at the resale dont complain of what they get why, id sujest that they know gachas are where the real creators are. cant count how many times im disapointed at creators who just refuse to make quality items. I get gocha because of the quality of the item not for the rare and not for specifics, is it gambling nah not one bit i find items on the MP of a much more chance then a gocha.

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1 hour ago, JuriTreat said:

I am at the Crystals Hearts event today

i was at the Vanity event earlier. There was a Mini Mania board. 20 people to touch and it went off, a EVO head for one lucky person. Then board reset and do it again

was a massive bunch people there to play it, all dressed up in our best go to the shops outfits with a zillion triangles in each piece and our zillion scripts each also.  As soon as the board reset then click click click click click by everybody.  The thing was going off every two minutes about. The chat was spamming like a 100 kms a hour. "You already registered. You already registered."  Couldn't even see the textures on the board before it was full again. Then chat spam again "You never won.And you never won. And never did you."

and then we do it all again.  The region was crawling.  A event manager ended up deleting the board. And we all went awww!  We like lag when it comes in, free head + lag and no head + lag.

that was just one Mini Mania

so if anyone sticks one of these conveyor/rollers in an event, don't make it L$1 to play. Or lots of people like me are going to turn up and go: pay, pay, pay pay, pay as fast as we can. About 60 people all at once, who won't care about sniping. We will each be using a cannon to get whatever we can. Rare, common, who has time to worry about finesse and sensibilities. Just keep pushing the button as fast as we can. Cheap stuff is good 😸

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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well maybe the new owners are the ones pushing for cleaning up this stuff which leads to the question of what will be next. 

From what I am seeing, it is only Belgium that has done so and as a result a number of games are no longer accessible for people from there.

you really need conspirancies ?..

What will be next will show up automaticly.. lets deal with this one first, and seeing the half baked work arounds or tries to that... it will take a long run.

Belgium is nót the only one.

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If you are going to take away gachas from us then you should ban those gaming sims too where ACTUAL gambling happens.  With gachas...we are still getting a product we paid for.  There may be other issues with gachas too...I get it...but why suddenly toss out gachas and let those gambling sims go on and on an on.  That does not seem fair at all.  Creators work hard to produce these gacha items and it was a fun way to buy their beautiful creations.  

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1 minute ago, Sinvares Tenk said:

Its funny the only people who say its a "Gamble" are the one who pick and choose everything and withh dump loads of L just to get it, while the inteligent ones who say its not are happy just to get whatever they are getting, dont complain at the resale dont complain of what they get why, id sujest that they know gachas are where the real creators are. cant count how many times im disapointed at creators who just refuse to make quality items. I get gocha because of the quality of the item not for the rare and not for specifics, is it gambling nah not one bit i find items on the MP of a much more chance then a gocha.

Every top creator I know of, has demos available of all their products through the Marketplace or their Store.  AMBIX for example has both.  There is no gamble, since you get to demo and test the items before purchase.

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2 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

For me it s ok i mean if u want the whole fatpack and the set whort is a good price...look at DRD if u want 1 set no transfer about 7000L if not spin or trade or whatever and u pay 75L each item

Those fatpacks are worth the price and I for one have bought a couple of their fatpacks. In the end it's still more affordable than continuously gambling on the chance to get the item you want as illustrated in my example a few pages back.  I'll attach the below again.  This customer played my gacha 47 times in the span of 5 minutes before purchasing the fatpack.  So they essentially spent 50% more than the amount they could have just purchased the fatpack for - which they still purchased in the end. Some people do struggle with gambling it is an addiction/disease and the amount of pushback from creators endorsing predatory systems clearly shows us they have a vested interest in taking advantage of that.

GACHA STATS.png

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3 minutes ago, Xara Claven said:

If you are going to take away gachas from us then you should ban those gaming sims too where ACTUAL gambling happens.  With gachas...we are still getting a product we paid for.  There may be other issues with gachas too...I get it...but why suddenly toss out gachas and let those gambling sims go on and on an on.  That does not seem fair at all.  Creators work hard to produce these gacha items and it was a fun way to buy their beautiful creations.  

It isn't about fairness but about covering LL's butt and yours, too. Legally. As in staying within the bounds of the laws and gaming regulations.

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1 minute ago, Komarimono said:

Every top creator I know of, has demos available of all their products through the Marketplace or their Store.  AMBIX for example has both.  There is no gamble, since you get to demo and test the items before purchase.

Still a gamble anyone can make a good looking demo seperate of the actual product. At least with a gocha you see what you can get you see whats common and uncommon your able to see your possibilities, its not a blind bet like the gamming sims which honestly are the worst considering they are filled with auto clicker bots.

 

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You're going to have to give examples of such deceit, since Market Place has reviews for a reason.  You get the demos to test the fit, the huds, both etc.  90% of Gacha you can't even get a demo before purchase.

Edited by Komarimono
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2 minutes ago, xAmbiguityx said:

Those fatpacks are worth the price and I for one have bought a couple of their fatpacks. In the end it's still more affordable than continuously gambling on the chance to get the item you want as illustrated in my example a few pages back.  I'll attach the below again.  This customer played my gacha 47 times in the span of 5 minutes before purchasing the fatpack.  So they essentially spent 50% more than the amount they could have just purchased the fatpack for - which they still purchased in the end. Some people do struggle with gambling it is an addiction/disease and the amount of pushback from creators endorsing predatory systems clearly shows us they have a vested interest in taking advantage of that.

GACHA STATS.png

But in every machine u can set up how many time the machine have to give the rare and all the rest....and this is a creator consciousness to set up the machine honestly

 

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3 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

But in every machine u can set up how many time the machine have to give the rare and all the rest....and this is a creator consciousness to set up the machine honestly

 

I am well aware but that doesn't take the predatory nature out of it.  I'm honestly not sure why you're arguing if you want to by Gachas do so, but for others that have a dependency on them - they need to be regulated or removed.  In my most recent Gachas I set them to fair play so duplicated purchases are less likely and I have strict standards for how I set their rarity.  Please see below my following requirements, I wrote these for an event I own and operate named [Mod]ify.  I created these rules in the spirit of fairness and created any new gacha with them in mind so I would be compliant with our own rules for the event. Clearly we will no longer needs these rules since gachas are banned, but the point stands.

Advertisements & Display Images

1.) All machines must be clearly marked - meaning they must show all items on their advertisement image. 

2.) Vendors must number or utilize an identification system on their advertisements to properly portray what can be won. 

 Vendors must put a "total number" of items on the advertisement. Ex: "This machine contains # items!!"

3.) Vendors must properly display their rarity chances.  Customers must be able to see and access percentage chances.  In Caspervend uncheck the "Disable "Prizes" button on the touch menu.  If you are not using Caspervend, you must use a system that properly displays accurate percentage chances.


General Standards

All gacha machines, both new and old must abide by the following rules:

1.) All items in every gacha machine must be sold with modify permissions enabled. 

     *Excluding scripts.

2.) Each gacha machine may contain no more than 50 items.

3.) All machines must be no more than L$100 PER play.

4.) All machines must be original content - prefabricated content will not be allowed.

5.) Rarities levels are limited to: Common, Uncommon, and Rare.

6.) Fatpacks must be sold for each gacha machine at the event.

7.) All items should work and be functional as stand-alone products.


Fatpack Guidelines

All fatpacks for gacha machines must abide by the following:

1.) Include all items advertised in the gacha, all rarities should be contained within the fatpack.

2.) Fatpack permissions on gachas must be Modify / Copy / No Transfer.

3.) Use a provided formula to calculate their final price fatpack. A(B*2)=X, formula as explained below.


Fatpack Pricing Formula

*Note: Fatpack pricing is allowed to be lower than the calculated price of the machine.

Formula Base:  A ( B * 2 ) = X

X = Fat Pack Value.

A = Items in Machine.

B = Price Per Play.

C = (Y*2)

Example:

X= ? || A = 50 || B = 100

( 100 * 2 ) = 200

50 * 200 = L$10,000


Rarity Levels

Gacha machines can have up to three rarity levels.

Drop Chance || Level

1.) Common      || 60% 

2.) Uncommon  || 30%

3.) Rare              || 10%

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8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Explain to us how someone would go about making a demo that works well for a product that doesn't.

 

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

And why

One example recently where the demo included a styling button that was only included for the fatpack but nowhere was that stated. I bought the single color expecting to get the button but the hud was not included.

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Then find some way of monetizing them that doesn't involve paying for an unknown result.

ok, make a sample which involves that without breaking the gacha law of LL now which still involves the random fun of buying booster packs with random cards in it and we are golden.

Also small edit:

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Provide the random packs of "cards" for free

You do know people which create such cards wanna earn at least a bit of money right? Im not talking about "100L$ for a random card", the prices are so minimal like maybe 5-25L$ for a random card, noone can complain about that tbh.

2 hours ago, Dutch Mainsail said:

I think the rules are really simple. If an item is transferable, you can make money of the resale of an item. If you can make money from winnings it's gambling and gambling isn't legal in a lot of places. That's my 10 bouncy balls ;)

 

i think transferable is the literal meaning of trading. if you cant transfer items than you cant trade them as well.

 

I mean, ok, if (and i duno if this would break the new gacha law) such cards would be sold no-trans but still can be sold random, guess what other gacha creators have to do now...

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Yaaay!  I am finally caught up (well was) in this thread.

Still waiting to see how KittyCats adapts to the new rulings, re the selling of Special Collections.  I think the owner will take good revenue hit.  And those of us that breed for new traits will also have to spend more, or reduce our activity buying cat food.  The days of Rares and Ultra Rares selling for 10X to 20X what you paid are over.

And I really hate the side panel on this forum.  Especially the animated GIF's.  I would like to throw a water balloon full of D**** at that redhead. :)

re:

02d4d90703c34ac0a296aee2af077bdd.png

 

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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33 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Aw man. It's the no copy that kills it for me. Of course, I've been in SL a long time and know my way around the build tools so if I screw up, all I have to do is rezz a new copy and (ugh) start over. Others have never touched the build tools and don't know to just rezz a new copy. 

*grumbles* Humans *sighs*

If they ever mess something up I'm usually willing to help out, accidents happen.

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14 minutes ago, xAmbiguityx said:

I am well aware but that doesn't take the predatory nature out of it.  I'm honestly not sure why you're arguing if you want to by Gachas do so, but for others that have a dependency on them - they need to be regulated or removed.  In my most recent Gachas I set them to fair play so duplicated purchases are less likely and I have strict standards for how I set their rarity.  Please see below my following requirements, I wrote these for an event I own and operate named [Mod]ify.  I created these rules in the spirit of fairness and created any new gacha with them in mind so I would be compliant with our own rules for the event. Clearly we will no longer needs these rules since gachas are banned, but the point stands.

Advertisements & Display Images

1.) All machines must be clearly marked - meaning they must show all items on their advertisement image. 

2.) Vendors must number or utilize an identification system on their advertisements to properly portray what can be won. 

 Vendors must put a "total number" of items on the advertisement. Ex: "This machine contains # items!!"

3.) Vendors must properly display their rarity chances.  Customers must be able to see and access percentage chances.  In Caspervend uncheck the "Disable "Prizes" button on the touch menu.  If you are not using Caspervend, you must use a system that properly displays accurate percentage chances.


General Standards

All gacha machines, both new and old must abide by the following rules:

1.) All items in every gacha machine must be sold with modify permissions enabled. 

     *Excluding scripts.

2.) Each gacha machine may contain no more than 50 items.

3.) All machines must be no more than L$100 PER play.

4.) All machines must be original content - prefabricated content will not be allowed.

5.) Rarities levels are limited to: Common, Uncommon, and Rare.

6.) Fatpacks must be sold for each gacha machine at the event.

7.) All items should work and be functional as stand-alone products.


Fatpack Guidelines

All fatpacks for gacha machines must abide by the following:

1.) Include all items advertised in the gacha, all rarities should be contained within the fatpack.

2.) Fatpack permissions on gachas must be Modify / Copy / No Transfer.

3.) Use a provided formula to calculate their final price fatpack. A(B*2)=X, formula as explained below.


Fatpack Pricing Formula

*Note: Fatpack pricing is allowed to be lower than the calculated price of the machine.

Formula Base:  A ( B * 2 ) = X

X = Fat Pack Value.

A = Items in Machine.

B = Price Per Play.

C = (Y*2)

Example:

X= ? || A = 50 || B = 100

( 100 * 2 ) = 200

50 * 200 = L$10,000


Rarity Levels

Gacha machines can have up to three rarity levels.

Drop Chance || Level

1.) Common      || 60% 

2.) Uncommon  || 30%

3.) Rare              || 10%

This is good and fair...this rules could be implemented and adapted into the new rules for the conveyor belt as well

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2 minutes ago, xAmbiguityx said:

If they ever mess something up I'm usually willing to help out, accidents happen.

Ya, I am grateful for creators who do that.  I'm quite fortunate to be friends with quite a few of the popular ones, so get spoiled, but they also RP with me as well.  I'd even have more of your stuff, like really want the new feet for my Harpy...  But gah!  Her looks rely on Freya body, and most stick to Maitreya and now add Legacy lol

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Let's contrast and compare some things:

Gacha

  • drop coin into vendor, receive a random item.
  • Rarity and market value can vary depending on brand.
  • Sellers are vast, no standardization among gacha sellers.
  • Few laws if any laws are regulating this, for now.
  • Rare items are sometimes needed to complete an outfit or set.
  • No other game elements
  • You must pay to play, no free plays.

Trading cards

  • Pay cash to receive a random set of cards.
  • Rarity and market value varies depending on brand and poularity
  • Original sellers are big cooperations and rarity of cards is regulated by laws.
  • Some have actual game elements (Pokemon, Yugioh, Magic the gathering, etc)
  • Rare cards are not needed to play the game and sometimes not compete but do help.

Gumdrop machines

  • Drop coin in machine, receive random item
  • Rarity is random but market value is nonexistent.
  • Sellers are localized to mom & pop shops and do not achieve brand recognization for their gumdrop machines.
  • Laws do exist that might hit a vendor if their gumdrop machine started to have monetary value.
  • No other game elements involved, usually.

Breedables in SL

  • Pay lindens for a set of pets and food to raise.
  • Rarity and market value can vary depending on popularity AND breeding.
  • Only 1 true seller per breedable brand, but each have a huge community and 3rd party market compared to gacha.
  • Game elements are present in the form of breeding and maintenance of pets. (Meeroos had petting for example)
  • Rarity of breed can be stacked in your favor with planning and proper breeding. Showing skill is a factor
  • Original vendor does not sell a chance for a rare breed. They only sell you the food to keep it going, like a token.
  • You can not cash dump a ton of money into original vendor like gachas to spam the machine and roll many times for a rarity. Nixing that gambler itch. You must wait for the animals to breed, however long that takes. Yes, you can just get more but you still wait regardless.
  • No regulations currently exist related to breedables.

7Seas Fishing

  • Pay lindens for starter kit
  • Fishing is free but no level or rare items for fishing, you must buy bait
  • Only 1 true seller of 7seas fishing products.
  • Bait is extremely cheap (literal pennies) and provides 100 uses or so. Each one is a chance at a rare item.
  • Rare items have no monetary value (aka no one resells in marketplace anyway).
  • Fishing takes time even with bait, there is no way to spam the fishing with cash to get your rare items quicker.
  • You can still play with friends without spending a single linden beyond initial fee. Levels and rare items are optional.
  • There is a semblance of a game with the levels and crafting you can do.
  • No laws would bother with this given there is zero monetary value with the game's products.

Conveyor Belt idea

  • Pay vendor for random item.
  • Rarity and market value is dependent on brand.
  • Sellers would be vast and there will be no regulation. Even if LL released their own conveyor belt script (they won't) people will still try to sell their versions of the conveyor belt script or try to hack the LL one in some way with clever coding.
  • While no laws specifically target the Conveyor Belt idea, there will be a country that will eventually nail it. Plus there was a case about this in the US: https://www.moberlymonitor.com/story/news/2021/02/25/moberlys-deskins-1913-gumball-machine-led-illegal-gambling/4576611001/
  • There no other game element to it.
  • You must pay to play, no free plays.

 

When you compare it like this you can see why Gacha and the Coveyor Belt idea are in their own little boxes and different from other random change games, because you know those are actual games while Gacha (and gumball machine) is not. They are just product dispensers and sure getting a random gumball that is could be purple instead of red might seem innocent.

However when the prize award can be worth from $50L to $4000L ($0.20 to $16) then we are reaching claw machine level of prizes and those two are regulated by the law. Yet even they are more of a game than say a gacha machine that just takes coin and spits out a prize.

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