New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Kricket Calamity said:

The desperation comes from creators who are losing their main source of income. If regular releases made even half of what gachas did we wouldn't have ever bothered with gachas.

This is an emotional response, and exactly what I talked about, umm, I don't know how many pages ago. The emotional part, I get, but the world still isn't ending.  No, most creators are not going to lose their main source of income. They can sell these same items, these same gacha items, in their stores, and they will sell. How many people need to say "yes, we'll still buy your stuff if you continue selling it", do people need to see before they believe it?

1 hour ago, Kricket Calamity said:

It takes years to learn meshing, texturing, rigging and then weeks to create items and unless you're in the top stores in SL then you're not even earning minimum wage for often working 60+ hour weeks.

So how are they making these gacha items? They have these skills to make them, I presume, otherwise they're not really making any money on them, are they?

1 hour ago, Kricket Calamity said:

Gacha gave some decent money for our work, certainly not what we should be paid for the hours put into it but a lot more than a regular release

Which is what I, and others are trying to get across, there is no reason why an item needs to not be profitable, there just isn't. Not when every other merchant has to do things the same way. No gacha for anyone levels the playing field even more. If everyone goes back to selling things the way(s) we always have, and people like your(general) stuff, it will sell. Price it accordingly if you feel the need to raise prices beyond the pull prices (and that I believe MOST people understand, save some weird few, lol). 

 

1 hour ago, Kricket Calamity said:

Unless customers want to start paying a lot more for regular releases, we're going to have to find another way to make our money or we'll need to leave and find somewhere else to work. I hope that explains it a bit.

How many merchants don't use gachas at all and sell just fine? I don't actually know that number, and I don't expect that anyone else will either, but the number is most certainly not a small one. What did people do before gachas were a thing? They sold them in vendors, individually, in sets, in fatpacks, as collections, etc.. There is a myriad of ways to sell, gacha is not the be all end all some people have made it into. Like I said, eliminating them levels the playing field out even more than people realize.

I can understand the frustration from some creators, I really can, but all this trying to find a workaround is an exercise in futility expending energy that could be better spent on moving to a different sales method. I don't know a single creator, personally, that isn't already doing this and already moving their items, gacha and all, to regular vendors and other methods. I know some who are complaining the whole way, and I get it, really, but they're still doing it. They're not out there looking for a way to make something just like a gacha, but not really a gacha, but behaves like a gacha so customers will fall for it and think it's a gacha..I just don't. None of them are up and leaving sl, even the most angry (and some are, lol). They were told "no more" and so they're doing what they need to do to keep their businesses open. These weird machines, ideas, conveyors, whatever, are just getting ridiculous at this point. 

Vendors work, they sell, merchants, of all sizes and profit levels, use them everyday in sl. There is no reason for the level of desperation from consumers at all. The only desperation from creators that makes sense is the desire to get everything done in time, that would make one feel desperate. The options are there, they are readily available, people need to USE them and move on with it. 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

48 minutes ago, Kricket Calamity said:

The desperation comes from creators who are losing their main source of income. If regular releases made even half of what gachas did we wouldn't have ever bothered with gachas. It takes years to learn meshing, texturing, rigging and then weeks to create items and unless you're in the top stores in SL then you're not even earning minimum wage for often working 60+ hour weeks. Gacha gave some decent money for our work, certainly not what we should be paid for the hours put into it but a lot more than a regular release. Unless customers want to start paying a lot more for regular releases, we're going to have to find another way to make our money or we'll need to leave and find somewhere else to work. I hope that explains it a bit.

welcome to the world of microtransactions. Yes, that's how it works. Not just for creators of inworld assets either.

If I am playing a RL set I prepare the setlist in advance, I rehearse it for several hours, prepare and load my lighting cues for the planned show . I load up my stage rig, go to the venue, I set up my gear, hook up to the house PA (or set up my own if the house either doesnt have one or its so crap I'd prefer to eat the expense of hiring one myself), run a soundcheck and I run the show. For an hours set there is about 5-6 hours of work, not including travel time. If I am playing multiple RL gigs in a single week I'll reduce the hit from prep and rehearsals by playing the same set at all the venues.

If I am playing a SL set I prepare the setlist in advance, I rehearse it for several hours, prepare and load my lighting cues for the planned show. I setup my gear (apart from the lights) in my studio space, fire up the stream and run a soundcheck, tp to the venue, rez my SL gear and run the show (the USB footswitches plugged into my laptop now control lighting and anim cues on my scripted gear rather than the identical functions when mapped to my lighting control software in RL). For an hours set there is about 5-6 hours work and travel time isn't a factor. If I am playing multiple SL gigs in a single week I'll reduce the hit from prep and rehearsals by playing the same set at all the venues.

See much difference there? I sure don't from the perspective of actually doing live music in "both lives". I've got the same expenses in time, wear and tear on gear, spare strings, periodic trips to the luthier to keep my instruments in decent shape. Except a big difference is the pay scale. I sure dont come even close to RL returns in SL, from the same number of hours worked.

Then we get to the argument about gacha making more money than regular sales. That extra income is gambling income. It's money your customers are paying over and above the actual inworld value of what you created because of the gambling mechanic. You may not personally be knowingly using a rigged gacha script but do you really want to be in the same box as "merchants" who are? You make more from using gacha? How about charging that higher price up front - and honestly - and seeing if your products still sell? If they do, then you can be thankful your business will not be impacted by this change. If they don't then your increased profits from gacha aint really all that honest and you're part of the reason that gacha have to be gone.

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, Kyau Brodie said:

i get that this is a first effort, but I think machines like this are going to get overrun by more sophisticated machines which will be far more popular with the customers

the new improved machines will allow the customer to buy any of the items in the conveyor queue,  upon which the queue will advance by 1 step from the bought item position

so if the customer doesn't want to buy 03, they can buy 01. (7th item in the queue) which will advance 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th items. And the next item will appear in the 11th position

[Experimental Scientist]

3 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Well .. that looks like a miserable shopping experience.

"Lets all stand about this weird gas pump and wait for some idiot to buy the teal knickers, I've got dibs on #04 though, if you don't let me get that my boyfriend will MAKE YOUR SL BURN."

I already decided that once events start using those I'll find the most wanted machine in a packed sim event and start hammering the machine for an hour or two while taunting everyone else. At 50L$ every 10 seconds it's still less than 20k per hour so I can easily afford it to make a point and get people to realise how poorly this system works. Heck. If they put up two or three machines I might just start playing all three at a time. I'd consider every angry note sent to the designer as a win.

[Tari Landar]

24 minutes ago, Kricket Calamity said:

Why? I think all creators should be paid for their time and work, anyone who works should be paid fairly. 

Then price accordingly and you shall be paid. Really, the market exists if people like your stuff. You don't have to charge an arm and a leg, especially on items that you will likely recoup the costs on after enough sales (enough sales determined by each creator, I don't presume to guess that for them, that would be rude). But if anything, we know that people will pay whatever the heck they want to in sl for things, and cost isn't always something that holds a whole lot of people back. It might hold some of us back (eh hem, me, lol) but it's certainly not going to hold a whole lot back. Look at how many people have a bunch of mesh heads, and bodies, and those are certainly not what I would consider low cost by any stretch of my own personal budget (they are for others, however).

People WILL pay if you charge what you believe your items are worth, and people believe they are worth it. They just will, it's how sl merchants have always functioned, it's how they'll continue to. 

[Coffee Pancake]

7 minutes ago, Experimental Scientist said:

I already decided that once events start using those I'll find the most wanted machine in a packed sim event and start hammering the machine for an hour or two while taunting everyone else. At 50L$ every 10 seconds it's still less than 20k per hour so I can easily afford it to make a point and get people to realise how poorly this system works. Heck. If they put up two or three machines I might just start playing all three at a time. I'd consider every angry note sent to the designer as a win.

For 20K an hour I will craft you all the complaints you like.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Coffee Pancake

[Experimental Scientist]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

For 20K an hour I will craft you all the complaints you like.

The only thing I'm still wondering is, as I really hate no-copy stuff and don't want it befouling my inventory with its useless permissions, whether I should just trash it to make a point, rates included, or throw it all on the marketplace for 1L$ to trash resale values as well, again rares included. Gachas and conveyors need to just go away and while I'm not proposing breaking the LL TOS I will do what I can within TOS to make them less fun after 1 September. I'm gonna earmark a slice of my entertainment budget already.

 

And yeah, I've done this kind of stuff before. For years I've owned land with apartments for rent on it at a symbolic 1L$ a week as my form of silent protest against SL land prices for example.

[Faly Breen]

5 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

You buy bait.  Not a chance to buy bait.  Anything after that is irrelevant.  You KNOW what you are buying.  You aren't paying for some unknown fish.  You might catch an unknown item but you haven't paid for an unknown item.  Get it?

so you buy a key item, bait in this case, to have a chance to catch a fish. *cough* lootboxes *cough*

 

again, i did read the new rules, i do understand them, no need to point me 5 times on it for everyone who just did but again - this is literally hypocritcal and kinda unfair for everyone who did similar. I mean as i said so often, i just could create a token people can buy (not random) and use a token on a vendor than FOR a CHANCE of a random item. it would be the same as 7seas.

[Kricket Calamity]

7 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Then price accordingly and you shall be paid. Really, the market exists if people like your stuff. You don't have to charge an arm and a leg, especially on items that you will likely recoup the costs on after enough sales (enough sales determined by each creator, I don't presume to guess that for them, that would be rude). But if anything, we know that people will pay whatever the heck they want to in sl for things, and cost isn't always something that holds a whole lot of people back. It might hold some of us back (eh hem, me, lol) but it's certainly not going to hold a whole lot back. Look at how many people have a bunch of mesh heads, and bodies, and those are certainly not what I would consider low cost by any stretch of my own personal budget (they are for others, however).

People WILL pay if you charge what you believe your items are worth, and people believe they are worth it. They just will, it's how sl merchants have always functioned, it's how they'll continue to. 

Some of us create for small communities, gachas are what help us keep it afloat, wether you like it or not. Many of the smaller communities will die out without the money gachas bring in, there simply isn't enough people to buy the regular stuff. Also resellers won't be able to make money and customers can not always afford to pay for regular items and like being able to pay 50L for an item. I play some gachas once or twice and like getting an item for cheap. Others enjoy trading their items, gifting them, selling them. Who is anyone to tell them that they can't enjoy that. You are trying to put down what customers like to spend their money on because you simply don't like something. You can walk past any gacha machine, any conveyer belt like machine and you don't even have to look at it, let alone play it. Why does it bother you so much that other people are interest in it, not being able to understand people's interest doesn't diminish it for them. There are many things in SL that I have 0 interest in, but I wouldn't want others not to have it. 

As a creator I'm excited about new alternative ideas so I can keep making for a small community I love and as a customer I'm excited as I enjoy playing the machines and like the idea. 

[Bree Giffen]

1 hour ago, Candide LeMay said:

Ok, what if I put a sign next to the box saying "Cookies inside". If there are no cookies inside the buyer will feel cheated, but that's false advertising and not a TOS violations as far as I can tell. LL typically doesn't get involved in resident vs resident disputes.

And what if I rez 10 of such boxes and the sign is saying "Cookies inside of one of these boxes"...

False cookies? Possibly the worst thing ever! Definitely a lifetime ban if I was in charge. 

[Polenth Yue]

1 hour ago, Kricket Calamity said:

The desperation comes from creators who are losing their main source of income. If regular releases made even half of what gachas did we wouldn't have ever bothered with gachas. It takes years to learn meshing, texturing, rigging and then weeks to create items and unless you're in the top stores in SL then you're not even earning minimum wage for often working 60+ hour weeks. Gacha gave some decent money for our work, certainly not what we should be paid for the hours put into it but a lot more than a regular release. Unless customers want to start paying a lot more for regular releases, we're going to have to find another way to make our money or we'll need to leave and find somewhere else to work. I hope that explains it a bit.

There's better money to be made elsewhere for people with art and graphic design skills, so if you're struggling for basic food and rent, it's a good idea to try other things that have a better return for the time spent. It's also a good idea to spread it around so that dips in one source of income can be covered by the others. It seems some of the issue here is people who've found one thing that makes a bit of money and then not looking at anything else (both in Second Life and outside of it). Once that one thing disappears, there's nothing left.

So change how you sell your Second Life stuff, but absolutely go looking for work you can do elsewhere as well. Don't rely on one platform for all your income.

[Rowan Amore]

10 minutes ago, Kricket Calamity said:

there simply isn't enough people to buy the regular stuff.

Someone explain to me what regular stuff is?  Is that quality stuff at a market price as opposed to junk in a gacha?

[Maryanne Solo]

55 minutes ago, Kricket Calamity said:

Why? I think all creators should be paid for their time and work, anyone who works should be paid fairly. 

Not a chance in hell.

It took me FIVE YEARS hard work to make my 3d mesh designs saleable in REAL LIFE.
App $20k AUD in equipment, (+ ongoing),
I had to teach myself how to do everything
and I haven't even bothered to estimate the cost in lost hours compared to my day job.
I estimate $80k in lost earnings over 5 years?
Whatsmore I am having to create my own market for my own goods.
Which I am thoroughly immersed in and welcome the challenge. 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

11 hours ago, Kricket Calamity said:

Some of us create for small communities, gachas are what help us keep it afloat, wether you like it or not. Many of the smaller communities will die out without the money gachas bring in, there simply isn't enough people to buy the regular stuff. Also resellers won't be able to make money and customers can not always afford to pay for regular items and like being able to pay 50L for an item.

This argument is demonstrably false with minimal scrutiny.

If there is enough money and enough people in that "small community" to pay the increased profits from selling through gacha,  then there are enough of both in that small community to pay a similar amount for the items priced up-front.

Unless what you're actually saying is "This community wont pay that much for what I make unless I hide the true price behind a gambling mechanic to make it look cheaper than it is."

I was right in what I said in my earlier post. You're part of the reason gacha have to go.

ETA: Italicised line above has been addressed by Kricket in a subsequent post and I must "correct the record" and say that I am no longer firmly of that opinion. I stand by the remainder, however.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Da5id Weatherwax

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Komarimono said:

I'm innocent in this regard, I cleaned out so many things, that I went from 240k items to like, 90k.  Many Gacha, just poof, not dealing with it, even if "Rare".  Prims...  so many sculpt maps I made...

I boxed all mine up. 

[Kricket Calamity]

 

36 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Someone explain to me what regular stuff is?  Is that quality stuff at a market price as opposed to junk in a gacha?

As in regular release. A release that isn't a gacha, I don't know what else to call it when trying to distinguish them on here. I don't think gachas are junk, if they where then no one would play. 

36 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

There's better money to be made elsewhere for people with art and graphic design skills, so if you're struggling for basic food and rent, it's a good idea to try other things that have a better return for the time spent. It's also a good idea to spread it around so that dips in one source of income can be covered by the others. It seems some of the issue here is people who've found one thing that makes a bit of money and then not looking at anything else (both in Second Life and outside of it). Once that one thing disappears, there's nothing left.

So change how you sell your Second Life stuff, but absolutely go looking for work you can do elsewhere as well. Don't rely on one platform for all your income.

I think that's very good advice. This month's shown how unstable the income is in SL. If it wasn't for the community I would have left a long time ago to pursue other things but I might have to now. 

 

28 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

This argument is demonstrably false with minimal scrutiny.

If there is enough money and enough people in that "small community" to pay the increased profits from selling through gacha,  then there are enough of both in that small community to pay a similar amount for the items priced up-front.

Unless what you're actually saying is "This community wont pay that much for what I make unless I hide the true price behind a gambling mechanic to make it look cheaper than it is."

I was right in what I said in my earlier post. You're part of the reason gacha have to go.

No, what I'm saying are the words I typed, you're trying to twist them to fit your narrative, which is biased as you're already negative about gachas. Not everyone pays the same amount for a gacha, some people play a few times, some people play a lot. If I price an item at 1000L, some people will be able to afford it but others wont.  But if I have a gacha, someone could play it four times and others could play it 14 times depending on what they want and can afford so you can get sales from everyone rather than a few and the ones who spend more make up that difference . The items are a lot lower priced than it would be individually too and I always package my items as doubles so people get two and can share them with friends as well as helping anyone who wants to complete a collection. A lot of us have fun playing and the aspect of earning more helps us keep the community going. You not enjoying something, or not liking it, doesn't mean other people can't enjoy or like it. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Kricket Calamity

[Maryanne Solo]

4 minutes ago, Kricket Calamity said:

Trust me I know, I also went to college, for game design. I think people should be paid fairly for what they do but I guess some people don't see the time that and effort that goes on behind the scenes. I wish they did though. I also create for a small community, it's a labour of love lol.

No believe me you don't know.
I have never had the luxury of going to college.
Neither have I had the luxury of ANY formal software training.

That's the difference You EXPECT to be compensated - I will earn the right to be compensated.

[Kricket Calamity]

1 minute ago, Maryanne Solo said:

No believe me you don't know.
I have never had the luxury of going to college.
Neither have I had the luxury of ANY formal software training.

That's the difference You EXPECT to be compensated - I will earn the right to be compensated.

What? Everyone should be compensated for working, that's not a "right" that you need to "earn". That's just, wow. I misread your post, I don't don't agree with you at all. Also I worked very hard to get into college, I think most people do. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

51 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

so you buy a key item, bait in this case, to have a chance to catch a fish. *cough* lootboxes *cough*

 

again, i did read the new rules, i do understand them, no need to point me 5 times on it for everyone who just did but again - this is literally hypocritcal and kinda unfair for everyone who did similar. I mean as i said so often, i just could create a token people can buy (not random) and use a token on a vendor than FOR a CHANCE of a random item. it would be the same as 7seas.

In the future, whatever they catch Fishing must be a No Transfer item - so no value outside of whatever the winner deems it worth to them.

I suppose you can create a token for a chance at a random item and as long as that random item is also No Transfer, you might be okay.

[Maryanne Solo]

Just now, Kricket Calamity said:

What? Everyone should be compensated for working, that's not a "right" that you need to "earn". That's just, wow. I misread your post, I don't don't agree with you at all. Also I worked very hard to get into college, I think most people do. 

I wouldn't know. The time I could have spent working hard to go to college was time spent working hard just to survive. (3 jobs).
Those days are long gone fortunately, but I have chosen what I do now as my future,
without the help of any institution/s or person/s. (except W3Schools initially).
I do work at colleges now, (day job), which is the easiest money I've ever earnt.
(Cognitive disability students one on one support). 
I want more and I am prepared to do whatever it takes to get what I want.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

6 minutes ago, Kricket Calamity said:

No, what I'm saying are the words I typed, you're trying to twist them to fit your narrative, which is biased as you're already negative about gachas. Not everyone pays the same amount for a gacha, some people play a few times, some people play a lot. If I price an item at 1000L, some people will be able to afford it but others wont.  But if I have a gacha, someone could play it four times and others could play it 14 times depending on what they want and can afford so you can get sales from everyone rather than a few and the ones who spend more make up that difference . The items are a lot lower priced than it would be individually too and I always package my items as doubles so people get two and can share them with friends as well as helping anyone who wants to complete a collection. A lot of us have fun playing and the aspect of earning more helps us keep the community going. You not enjoying something, or not liking it, doesn't mean other people can't enjoy or like it. 

Now that you have elaborated on the details of what you meant by your original comment, perhaps I was unduly harsh. 

I've no objections on moral or other principles to the existence of bunko games on carnival midways or to gacha in SL. I play the bunko games myself when I'm on the midway as a punter, but I do so knowing they are rigged and in many cases knowing exactly how. Some of them are fun anyway even knowing I'm getting ripped off. I play cards for money. I will usually put a bet on the Grand National each year. Objecting on any kind of moral or ethical grounds to gambling per se would be a just a tad hypocritical, I think.

What I DO object to is them being presented as "fair games" when so many of them are not. Also to the twisted sophistry that tries to claim that gacha are not gambling when they demonstrably are or to claim that their increased profit is somehow not "gambling income".

[Yingzi Xue]

19 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

What I DO object to is them being presented as "fair games" when so many of them are not. Also to the twisted sophistry that tries to claim that gacha are not gambling when they demonstrably are or to claim that their increased profit is somehow not "gambling income".

I was in the process of writing a post to make this point, but you beat me to it.

29 minutes ago, Kricket Calamity said:

What? Everyone should be compensated for working, that's not a "right" that you need to "earn". That's just, wow. I misread your post, I don't don't agree with you at all. Also I worked very hard to get into college, I think most people do. 

Whatever profit you are used to receiving above and beyond the market value of your product(s) is not actually profit, but cash that wouldn't/shouldn't exist.

Supply and demand.  If there isn't a demand for your product(s), then they won't sell and you will go out of business.  Businesses adapt or die every day because of this very thing. 

Being reliant on a gambling mechanism to make up the difference isn't a sound business practice.  1) It's unreliable to say the least, 2) It gives a false sense of value to your product(s), 3) It becomes a crutch.

I sympathize with creators who are struggling with change, but I see a world of opportunity (untapped potential) for gacha style product(s) without the gambling aspect.  Rather than trying to make an alternative gacha vendor to skirt the new rules, I'd be focusing on ways to maximize legitimate profits in the SL landscape.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Yingzi Xue

[MillyWH]

If there aren't any gachas then people will buy regular stuff.  There are a lot of creators who don't do gachas at all or only do them in small amounts and they still sell stuff.  Most people who buy things buy because they want to wear them or use them or whatever, not just to buy to resell. And those that are buying to resell are doing it because there are people who want things but don't want to deal with gachas or just want to get that one thing.

So if there are no gachas people will buy stuff. There are plenty of stores that don't have gachas or only have a few and it's not the main source of their business. 

 

I do buy gachas directly from the machine or buy on the secondary market but a lot of times I would rather just buy what I wanted from the store rather than have to search marketplace or in world for the item that I want that is close to the pull price. If it was priced like regular merchandise in most stores I would buy that but if it's a gacha for the most part I want to stay close to the pull price.

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

99% of creators in SL are probably not compensated for their time.  As was said, it's a labor of love.  I don't think when they were envisioning SL, they ever though it would be a substitute for RL work.  It should be a bonus.  Not something you need to depend on.  I know some do but what would happen if it did shut down tomorrow?  What's your plan?

Equating any sort of RL compensation for SL work makes no sense.

[Quistess Alpha]

11 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

99% of creators in SL are probably not compensated for their time.  As was said, it's a labor of love.  I don't think when they were envisioning SL, they ever though it would be a substitute for RL work.  It should be a bonus.  Not something you need to depend on.  I know some do but what would happen if it did shut down tomorrow?  What's your plan?

Equating any sort of RL compensation for SL work makes no sense.

(taking this at face value because there was no quote for what it may have been in response to)

I wouldn't say that it makes /no/ sense to think about RL compensation for SL work, and SL vs RL work isn't a hard binary. As oyu say there are probably very few creators who make a full living, but I think there are a fair number of people who at least make enough that they can afford to work fewer RL hours than they otherwise would. And, when doing custom work for someone, what other fair pricing system is there other than to try and estimate the amount you'd make in RL for the same number of hours of work, and maybe give it a little bit of a discount because SL is fun?