New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Elissa Taka]

Wait until LL's legal team digs into the US's First Sale Doctrine. Bye-bye non-transferable flag, hello open sales of everything. 🙃

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, Elissa Taka said:

Wait until LL's legal team digs into the US's First Sale Doctrine. Bye-bye non-transferable flag, hello open sales of everything. 🙃

Bye bye copyable flag too, in that case. Be careful what you wish for...

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Faly Breen said:

i did read it. and yea. this basicly ruins every trading part a "game" could have. it was part of the fun of the fishing game or TRADING cards to actually TRADE the stuff/cards you might need with others. this basicly limit this down to ZERO EXISTANCE.

People can have all the fun with trading cards that they like. Unless, of course, you're counting the person providing the random cards being paid as "fun."

[Komarimono]

For fun, and mostly curiosity, I showed this "conveyor" system to someone at work.  I work for a cloud computing company called (removed!), so we tend to have to have a legal team on standby for reasons I can't really say.

Their response...  Was oddly humorous.  "If randomness is what needs to be removed, why was it made worse with requiring an initial purchase to then get random results after?  Hopefully these items cannot be re-sold since this would be gambling."

Edited August 6, 2021 by Komarimono

[So Whimsy]

10 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

For fun, and mostly curiosity, I showed this "conveyor" system to someone at work.  I work for a cloud computing company called (removed!), so we tend to have to have a legal team on standby for reasons I can't really say.

Their response...  Was oddly humorous.  "If randomness is what needs to be removed, why was it made worse with requiring an initial purchase to then get random results after?  Hopefully these items cannot be re-sold since this would be gambling."

@Patch Linden

[Fionalein]

20 minutes ago, Elissa Taka said:

Wait until LL's legal team digs into the US's First Sale Doctrine. Bye-bye non-transferable flag, hello open sales of everything. 🙃

 

17 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Bye bye copyable flag too, in that case. Be careful what you wish for...

I think virtual "belongings" are legaly more akin to services than goods, but that would be a tricky can of worms to open. Let's keep this thread focused on the gachas

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Mollymews said:

yes thats the question

if Linden were ever to go down this path then they would be heading into the area of Smart Objects

and if they ever did decide to start making Smart Objects avaiable then I would be quite happy about that

Are not the security orbs for Belli "Smart Objects" or were they scripted and released by residents? I was under the impression if the latter, they had to be approved by LL.

If LL can do that for Belli security orbs why not this new (not called gacha even though it is) vendor? 

[Innula Zenovka]

27 minutes ago, Elissa Taka said:

Wait until LL's legal team digs into the US's First Sale Doctrine. Bye-bye non-transferable flag, hello open sales of everything. 🙃

Does the First Sale Doctrine apply to the terms on which creators grant limited licences to use their IP (which is what we're doing when we sell people virtual goods in SL) or only to actual physical objects (movable property)?

Edited August 6, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

This. 100%.

I mentioned in another couple of posts my brief episode as a carnie. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing would have bunko operators drooling.

The essence of a bunko game is that it looks "fairer" than it is. It looks like you've got an even chance when in fact it is controlled by the operator to a degree you wouldn't believe possible. Sleight-of-hand to rival Penn &Teller, "technicals" (looked down on by old-school operators as too simple and, more to the point, too easy for an observer to detect) visually deceptive designs, the lot. A game that looks at least somewhat "fair" (best and most profitable of all are the ones where an observer concludes that sufficient skill can beat it, but  in fact it's nigh impossible) is, in fact, rigged seven ways from Sunday.

Of the first 10 "conveyor belt" type scripts written to operate these vendors, I guarantee at least half will be rigged. The percentage of rigged ones will then increase as time goes by until most of them are.

Don't want to get ripped off? Don't play bunko. That 3-foot-tall teddy bear with the slushy message on its tshirt you want to present to the object of your romantic interest is NOT going to be yours unless the game operator has been reading the crowd and decides that it's time for a "big payout" to happen and none of his paid shills are around to be given it. If you ARE given it, it will be shoddily made and you'll be given the one that has been trucked across a dozen states for three years and will never, no matter what you do, stop smelling of diesel. Above all, NEVER play "money bunko" where "winning" the game gets you something of actual value. What you get will be both less valuable than it looks and cost you a lot more to get your hands on than you thought it would..

Yep. Even Ring Toss is rigged.

[Innula Zenovka]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Are not the security orbs for Belli "Smart Objects" or were they scripted and released by residents? I was under the impression if the latter, they had to be approved by LL.

If LL can do that for Belli security orbs why not this new (not called gacha even though it is) vendor? 

Why would LL want to pay the LDPW scripting moles to write one, and pay their QA to test it, and so on?    

[Komarimono]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Yep. Even Ring Toss is rigged.

As a ex Carnie myself, the only game I play is the ladder one, since used to be my station =P  Can still climb it by just walking up to the top and ringing the buzzer.

[Coffee Pancake]

They really should just ban all "carnival games" masquerading as commercial vendors.

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

38 minutes ago, Elissa Taka said:

Wait until LL's legal team digs into the US's First Sale Doctrine. Bye-bye non-transferable flag, hello open sales of everything. 🙃

So you want everything to be no copy/no mod/no trans?  Talk about killing SL quick.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

39 minutes ago, Elissa Taka said:

Wait until LL's legal team digs into the US's First Sale Doctrine. Bye-bye non-transferable flag, hello open sales of everything. 🙃

Virtual objects are licenses, not goods. A license can be non transferable.

[Cube Republic]

Simple, we need skilled gaming vendors

[Silent Mistwalker]

15 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Why would LL want to pay the LDPW scripting moles to write one, and pay their QA to test it, and so on?    

Who said they would want to? It's not a matter of wanting to or not. It's a matter of what will keep things "flowing smoothly".

When you are in business, you rarely get to do what you "want" because you must stay within the bounds of the laws and regulations. Sometimes you have to do what you don't want to do in order to stay in business. 

LL has really shot themselves in the foot with this conveyor vendor thing. When it comes to laws and regulations, a simple name change isn't going to stand up in court.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Silent Mistwalker]

16 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

As a ex Carnie myself, the only game I play is the ladder one, since used to be my station =P  Can still climb it by just walking up to the top and ringing the buzzer.

I made the guys do all the climbing. 🤫🤭

[Mollymews]

11 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Are not the security orbs for Belli "Smart Objects" or were they scripted and released by residents? I was under the impression if the latter, they had to be approved by LL.

If LL can do that for Belli security orbs why not this new (not called gacha even though it is) vendor? 

Belli is a LDPW project and the Moles build everything for it

i can derail the whole thread with a long post about what Smart Objects can be. I just do a simple example which is kinda related to gacha.  A Smart Object which is a product vendor

 When we right-click edit the object it brings up a Property Inspector dialog.  All the values/properties that are needed to sell the product in the Contents of the vendor can be set in the Property Inspector at design time.  No script required. When we are happy with the values we then set the Active property to True. When we want to stop the object we set the Active property to False

things like particle emitters, sec orbs, vehicle engines, vendors, doors, windows, etc can be made this way. One day Linden might make for us

 

 

[Komarimono]

Just now, Martiin Clarence said:

For fun, and mostly curiosity, I showed this "conveyor" system to someone at work.  I work for a cloud computing company called (removed for convenience), so we tend to have to have a legal team on standby for reasons I can't really say.

Their response...  Was oddly humorous.  "If randomness is what needs to be removed from the purchase, and a person has to know what they're paying for then someone did a great job in doing so. If they're not interested in buying an item, then they can simply.. not do that? Hopefully these items can be re-sold since this is not gambling."

There you go, holds just as much weight. @Patch Linden

Some of you are absolutely hilarious, mind gymnastics you're willing do to just in order to prove even an invalid point are mind boggling. It's just a few people living their lives to be heard on SL forums and I envy every single one of you, having so much time to waste and be proud about it.

I'm just posting what I was told.  I explained to them first on how the ecosystem works in Second Life, how we can create and sell virtual items for virtual currency, and then cash out said currency for real life currency.  That's how they came to the conclusion that it would fall under gambling, since you invest real life money into virtual money, to get a random item, gambling on getting another next, in conjunction with the ability for both parties to cash out.

They first thought I was weird for even being in such a environment, but we shall not discuss the odd looks and many questions they asked lol.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

Belli is a LDPW project and the Moles build everything for it

i can derail the whole thread with a long post about what Smart Objects can be. I just do a simple example which is kinda related to gacha.  A Smart Object which is a product vendor

 When we right-click edit the object it brings up a Property Inspector dialog.  All the values/properties that are needed to sell the product in the Contents of the vendor can be set in the Property Inspector at design time.  No script required. When we are happy with the values we then set the Active property to True. When we want to stop the object we set the Active property to False

things like particle emitters, sec orbs, vehicle engines, vendors, doors, windows, etc can be made this way. One day Linden might make for us

 

 

That... doesn't answer my question but ok.

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

That... doesn't answer my question but ok.

i did say that the Moles build everything for Belli

which includes the scripts for everything in the Belli project, and then Linden sell the product that the Moles build

is fair enough to say that if Linden can make products to sell to us, then why can't they make vendors for us as well. Maybe they could. Maybe they could include the script in a Premium ShopKeeper package

[Shuichi Shinji]

14 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

Belli is a LDPW project and the Moles build everything for it

i can derail the whole thread with a long post about what Smart Objects can be. I just do a simple example which is kinda related to gacha.  A Smart Object which is a product vendor

 When we right-click edit the object it brings up a Property Inspector dialog.  All the values/properties that are needed to sell the product in the Contents of the vendor can be set in the Property Inspector at design time.  No script required. When we are happy with the values we then set the Active property to True. When we want to stop the object we set the Active property to False

things like particle emitters, sec orbs, vehicle engines, vendors, doors, windows, etc can be made this way. One day Linden might make for us

 

 

That sounds very interesting - kinda like what you could do in Unity with their scripts: export soem global variables which could then be set via UI as some kind of properties, too - no need to edit the scripts anymore. I would love something like that for LSL, just a new tab in the edit dialog where you could set such script properties.. but that's getting a litle off-topic now 🙂

The whole LDPW project sounds very interesting, tbh...

[Coffee Pancake]

There is no way LDPW will ever make a "gacha replacement" script based around rollers etc ..

That would make LL directly liable.

[Stella Davros]

2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

yes that could work

the player prepays the instore terminal for X number of pulls. The terminal gives a HUD. The player can top up their X pulls anytime

using the HUD to play the game, when click Next/Pull a message is sent to the game server, the pull amount is deducted from the X total on the server and the prize currently displayed on the HUD is delivered

to secure the communication channel then either the game server is on own website, or it could be done via Experience KVP, the delivery terminal polling the KVP on a regular interval and delivering any items in the queue

edit add: to be able to play the game from our home with KVP, we would have to enable the Experience on our parcel

Exactly like this

[LittleMe Jewell]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

There is no way LDPW will ever make a "gacha replacement" script based around rollers etc ..

That would make LL directly liable.

100% this ^^