Selling Second Life photos in Real Life as NFTs for profit - is it allowed?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

They are selling copies of their own work.  Selling pictures of someone else's work might be a different thing.  That is what I question.  Taking a picture of a dresser or couch that one hasn't made themselves and selling that picture is not exactly the same as what you described and where I'm curious.  You can use it in a blog post, distribute it to friends and strangers, edit it however you'd like.  But sell?  

 

But you're not selling the couch. You're selling a 2D image of the couch, which is not only not "functional" in the same way, but is composed of an entirely different set of code.

And again, the other point is that you are almost certainly modifying the image. Photos use Windlight and EEP, they recontextualize the original by placing it in a scene, and they may well also modify it in image editing software. From a technical and functional point of view, a PSD or PNG file showing a couch is just not anything like a mesh file of one. I can't sit on photo of a couch. (Well, I suppose I could if it I put it on prim, but I'd look pretty stupid.)

[Finite]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But you're not selling the couch. You're selling a 2D image of the couch, which is not only not "functional" in the same way, but is composed of an entirely different set of code.

And again, the other point is that you are almost certainly modifying the image. Photos use Windlight and EEP, they recontextualize the original by placing it in a scene, and they may well also modify it in image editing software. From a technical and functional point of view, a PSD or PNG file showing a couch is just not anything like a mesh file of one. I can't sit on photo of a couch. (Well, I suppose I could if it I put it on prim, but I'd look pretty stupid.)

I think people are missing your point about parodies. Here's a little tidbit I just read about Weird Al.

"but his policy of getting permission for his parodies is a personal decision, not a legal obligation."

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Finite said:

I think people are missing your point about parodies. Here's a little tidbit I just read about Weird Al.

"but his policy of getting permission for his parodies is a personal decision, not a legal obligation."

This is probably an area where Molly's point about different jurisdictions does apply, but I know that in the US, Canada, and Britain at least, copyright doesn't apply to artistically modified versions of originals. And there is of course also the matter of fair use or fair dealing . . . although I'm not sure how that would apply here specifically.

[FairreLilette]

This is in the LL Wiki, however.  

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Snapshot_and_machinima_policy#Definitions

If the content that you capture is subject to any trademark, service mark, trade dress, publicity rights, or other intellectual property or proprietary rights, you must obtain the necessary licenses and permissions to use the content, and you use it at your own risk.

 

[Rowan Amore]

23 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But you're not selling the couch. You're selling a 2D image of the couch, which is not only not "functional" in the same way, but is composed of an entirely different set of code.

And again, the other point is that you are almost certainly modifying the image. Photos use Windlight and EEP, they recontextualize the original by placing it in a scene, and they may well also modify it in image editing software. From a technical and functional point of view, a PSD or PNG file showing a couch is just not anything like a mesh file of one. I can't sit on photo of a couch. (Well, I suppose I could if it I put it on prim, but I'd look pretty stupid.)

But this...

In March, Christie's, a 225-year-old auction house that previously only sold physical art, auctioned an entirely digital piece by Beeple. It sold for $69,346,250. 

It's 2D.  It's just an image.  You can't hang it on the wall so it has no function.  

I'm not saying you're wrong but I still question what is legal in the SL world.

[FairreLilette]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is probably an area where Molly's point about different jurisdictions does apply, but I know that in the US, Canada, and Britain at least, copyright doesn't apply to artistically modified versions of originals. And there is of course also the matter of fair use or fair dealing . . . although I'm not sure how that would apply here specifically.

According to the LL Wiki, LL does not frown on fair use.  

 

a) No Limitations on Fair Use or Use of Public Domain Works.

This Policy does not limit fair use or use of public domain works. You may wish to consult the Stanford Copyright & Fair Use Center for general information on fair use and the public domain. However, because the law may or may not recognize fair use or public domain status in different situations, we suggest consulting a lawyer before relying on any fair use or public domain status.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

According to the LL Wiki, LL does not frown on fair use.  

 

a) No Limitations on Fair Use or Use of Public Domain Works.

This Policy does not limit fair use or use of public domain works. You may wish to consult the Stanford Copyright & Fair Use Center for general information on fair use and the public domain. However, because the law may or may not recognize fair use or public domain status in different situations, we suggest consulting a lawyer before relying on any fair use or public domain status.

 

I don't think they can . . . you can't "opt out" of fair use. It's an established legal thing.

[Mollymews]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is probably an area where Molly's point about different jurisdictions does apply, but I know that in the US, Canada, and Britain at least, copyright doesn't apply to artistically modified versions of originals. And there is of course also the matter of fair use or fair dealing . . . although I'm not sure how that would apply here specifically.

yes when we get into fair dealing then it can get even murkier depending on the jursidiction

in most jurisdictions inherited from english law then is not illegal to paint an exact copy of another person's painting and sell our painting as our work. We just not allowed to purport that it was painted by the original painter (such a claim makes our painting a forgery)

[Jerilynn Lemon]

NFT, the ultimate gacha.

Spend an obscene amount of money for an item of one. No copy or mod. Can transfer for what ever the market can stand. Downside, the original creator gets a % of the sale.

Gotta love it.

[Coffee Pancake]

It's all the same stupid game with the same stupid prize.

People with lots of money jumping on novel (pre regulation) investment ideas, hyping them up to get the masses on board (which brings volume and an air of legitimacy), a few catchy to the moon slogans and a few people getting rich/richer quick/quicker.

NFT's are about as tangible as numbers. Pick a number. Any number. Nice isn't it? But is it as nice as this number imagined by a famous artist? I doubt it.

[Sid Nagy]

Those sudden total overpriced NFT thingies are most likely a new form of easy money laundering if you ask me.
 

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

Those sudden total overpriced NFT thingies are most likely a new form of easy money laundering if you ask me.
 

This could be so but how does it change into real money?  

Other things I wanted to say about this topic - I looked up some of these sites and they want you to open a wallet with them before you can sell.  What I don't get is that if someone sells an artwork and then is paid in that currency how do you exchange that into real money?  Or does one have to find a place that will except that currency in exchange for something the person would actually want to buy?  These cryptocurrencies make it seem like one can only use the currency for certain things, things they may not even want like a Starbuck's coffee.

EDIT:  From Coinbase, it's something like this:  

• On Coinbase, you can buy major cryptocurrencies like

  Bitcoin (BTC), Litecoin (LTC), Ethereum (ETH), Bitcoin Cash (BCH), Ethereum Classic (ETC). Or you can explore emerging coins like Stellar Lumens or EOS. For some cryptocurrencies Coinbase offers opportunities to earn some for free.)

• One good approach is to ask yourself what you’re hoping to do with crypto and choose the currency that will help you achieve your goals. For example, if you want to buy a laptop with crypto, bitcoin might be a good option because it is the most widely accepted cryptocurrency. On the other hand, if you want to play a digital card game, then Ethereum is a popular choice.

Edited May 1, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

16 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Old person answer..."Google it!" 😉

Better to Duck Duck Go it!  (Or in my neck of the woods, Quack Quack Go!)

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 4/27/2021 at 1:29 PM, angelaThespian said:

Hi Everyone, 

I would guess I'm not the first person to ask this question, but I can't find any threads or other info about this: Is it possible for an SL photographer to sell their digital photos as NFTs? Lately, selling NFTs is a hot topic. We see digital art selling at marketplaces like Nifty Gateway for obscene amounts. Obviously, that's rare. Still a number of photographers have come to me lately asking if photos taken in Second Life are saleable as an NFT for a profit -- even a small profit -- on marketplaces like Nifty Gateway or Rarible. The TOS is so confusing. 

I've read bunches of opinions on the TOS and ethics etc., but does anyone have a concrete verifiable answer? Thanks!

On LL's MP it's fine. On someone else's site not affiliated with LL? File a support ticket and ask the Lab since they are the only ones who can get an answer. Yes, a support ticket. That's what they have been telling us to do for over a decade. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

14 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

But it does not include sale of said works.  That seems to be a specific exclusion.

Selling falls under distribution.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Selling falls under distribution.

Distribute to me means give out

I can give out copies of pictures

Selling is entirely different as it's a transaction.

That is my interpretation

 

 

  

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Distribute to me means give out

I can give out copies of pictures

Selling is entirely different as it's a transaction.

That is my interpretation

 

 

  

 

Distribution is the process of making a product or service available for use or consumption to the end consumer or business. If you are selling you are making the product or service available to the consumer. Think of all the convicted drug dealers and the fact that they were charged with distribution, not selling, even though money did exchange hands.

[Bree Giffen]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

This could be so but how does it change into real money?  

Other things I wanted to say about this topic - I looked up some of these sites and they want you to open a wallet with them before you can sell.  What I don't get is that if someone sells an artwork and then is paid in that currency how do you exchange that into real money?  Or does one have to find a place that will except that currency in exchange for something the person would actually want to buy?  These cryptocurrencies make it seem like one can only use the currency for certain things, things they may not even want like a Starbuck's coffee.

It pretty much works the same way as linden dollars. You exchange from real dollars to crypto and vice versa. At a crypto broker website, you will have a regular currency balance which you can transfer to/from a normal bank account and you also have a crypto balance or multiple crypto balances. To transfer your money between balances you have to 'buy' and 'sell' crypto at the current exchange rate your crypto broker uses.

With NFTs, you need to know that there is a gas fee that can run over a $100 US dollars. On some exchanges like Opensea, they push the fee to the buyer but you might have to pay some of it if you don't follow the normal selling process.

[animats]

14 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

In March, Christie's, a 225-year-old auction house that previously only sold physical art, auctioned an entirely digital piece by Beeple. It sold for $69,346,250. 

There is some suspicion that was at least in part a wash sale, and that buyer and seller were working together to push the price up. The buyer is definitely trying to push the price of NFTs up.

I wonder if NFTs will come to Second Life. I hope not. There is a virtual land real estate investment trust, and it supports Upland, but not Second Life.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, animats said:

There is some suspicion that was at least in part a wash sale, and that buyer and seller were working together to push the price up. The buyer is definitely trying to push the price of NFTs up.

I wonder if NFTs will come to Second Life. I hope not. There is a virtual land real estate investment trust, and it supports Upland, but not Second Life.

 

Yes. My suspicion is that Beeple is a cynical speculator who couldn't give a damn about the art itself.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56335948

[FairreLilette]

18 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

NFT's are about as tangible as numbers. Pick a number. Any number.

I went ahead and went through the sign-up process with Opensea today.  The number is $35.00 U.S. dollars to begin to sell and open one's wallet even if one is not buying only selling.  I've tried putting in an auction format and the other format they offer, and both must have one put in $35.00 to initiate the artwork as a for sale item. And, I don't even know where they want this money from?  A credit card or what?   I haven't gotten there yet.   Plus, it's rather confusing trying to figure out what they mean by giving you a number for your wallet.  

So, Opensea has a number and it's seems like a gamble or gambling to me.

Edited May 2, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Bree Giffen]

@FairreLilette I suggest you read everything you can on cryptocurrency, NFTs, opensea, wallets, exchanges, Ethereum, etc. before you even start. If it's confusing then don't start until you learn enough where you are not confused. There are fees everywhere even when you are doing some rather mundane things like transferring currency from one account to another. These fees can be very volatile too.

[Polenth Yue]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

I went ahead and went through the sign-up process with Opensea today.  The number is $35.00 U.S. dollars to begin to sell and open one's wallet even if one is not buying only selling.  I've tried putting in an auction format and the other format they offer, and both must have one put in $35.00 to initiate the artwork as a for sale item. And, I don't even know where they want this money from?  A credit card or what?   I haven't gotten there yet.   Plus, it's rather confusing trying to figure out what they mean by giving you a number for your wallet.  

So, Opensea has a number and it's seems like a gamble or gambling to me.

Small artists I've seen try this end up paying more than they earn. You are not going to get loads of people bidding on your Second Life photos unless you're a celebrity. That's before getting into any other issues about it.

[FairreLilette]

12 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

@FairreLilette I suggest you read everything you can on cryptocurrency, NFTs, opensea, wallets, exchanges, Ethereum, etc. before you even start. If it's confusing then don't start until you learn enough where you are not confused. There are fees everywhere even when you are doing some rather mundane things like transferring currency from one account to another. These fees can be very volatile too.

Oh yeah, I think I got their number I was attempting to say in my post.  Getting one's number is not a good thing.  To me it seems like gambling.  Although they invite you to talk to them on Discord. 

 

11 hours ago, Polenth Yue said:

Small artists I've seen try this end up paying more than they earn. You are not going to get loads of people bidding on your Second Life photos unless you're a celebrity. That's before getting into any other issues about it.

This is the thing, you'd better be extremely great and confident in yourself that it is great before you go ahead with this, and mine I'd say maybe is average not great but me, personally, I wasn't planning on doing avatar art.  I do my own digital art.  I did see one avatar art on there but it wasn't good, imo, very blah.  Part of the gamble, as I see it, is that you are good enough to be worth these fees and that it will sell, let alone it has to be within the realms of fair use to use SL stuff.  Me, I have no desire to use SL stuff.  I do another type of digital art. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

This all reminds me of the Pet Rocks from the 70s!