Morality is different in SL vs RL

[Cindy Evanier]

4 hours ago, Bagnu said:

I help people live out their sexual fantasies here, (and make them feel human if they are RL disabled). In RL what I am would be considered immoral. In SL I feel that I'm morally doing the right thing!!!

This is probably the worst thing I have read on the forums for a long time.   Why on earth would having sexual fantasies with a disabled person in RL be considered immoral?  Why on earth imply that disabled people don't feel human?   Does your rate card have different prices for disabled people?  

Edited August 2, 2020 by Cindy Evanier
added a sentence because trying not to swear made me miss it

[Amina Sopwith]

Something about this "I'm doing a service for disabled people" schtick, which OP has mentioned before, really sticks in my craw. As I'm not disabled, I've felt it isn't my place to say anything, but if it's come up... I think it bothers me because escorting is clearly your sexual fantasy, OP, and that's fine, but I wish you'd just own it without trying to claim altruistic morality points for helping the disabled at the same time. It feels a bit exploitative somehow. It's for you, that's fine, just own it. Nobody is disabled in SL anyway unless they choose to be.

Again, I'm not disabled, so obviously take the opinions of people with disabilities over mine. Someone let me know if I'm overstepping.
 

[Pixie Kobichenko]

The morality isn’t different between the two worlds.

The anonymity SL provides a backdrop that allows individuals to explore their fantasies that they feel society won’t allow.

So their morals aren’t any different, SL provides a chance to simulate the experience otherwise unavailable.

 

[Cindy Evanier]

5 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Someone let me know if I'm overstepping.

You're not.  I am disabled.  I make no secret of it since diagnosis.  I have MS  so some days less abled than others.  I find the whole service for the disabled thing extremely offensive.  The making "disabled feel human" part even more so.  The morality reference leaves me almost speechless.  

[Amina Sopwith]

If it's such an important service for disabled people, I'd be interested to know if they get discounts if they're impoverished.

[Sukubia Scarmon]

...am I the only one who things she didn't mean it in a malicious way and just has trouble to articulate herself? 

[Syo Emerald]

Its "dogpiling on Bagnu" time again? Do you guys not notice, that she struggles a bit more to express herself? Or do you really think those things are her true intention? I'm not saying what she says is correct, if taken as its been worded, but I do recognize a difference between someone intentionally saying those things and someone who just isn't able to get it out right.

I know, it feels good to do this sort of thing, but you are going against someone who brought a butter knife to a knife fight in a back alley.

[Amina Sopwith]

1 minute ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

...am I the only one who things she didn't mean it in a malicious way and just has trouble to articulate herself? 

I'm sure none of it is meant maliciously, but there's a difference between mixing up the meaning of words like "vanity" and "narcissism", especially if English isn't one's mother tongue, and outright bringing disability into it, more than once. That's not a language nuance.

 

[Sukubia Scarmon]

4 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I'm sure none of it is meant maliciously, but there's a difference between mixing up the meaning of words like "vanity" and "narcissism", especially if English isn't one's mother tongue, and outright bringing disability into it, more than once. That's not a language nuance.

 

I'm not saying it's language nuance. I get the gist of what she means, and personally, I don't quite agree with it in relation to SL.  But dunno. I just think it could be handled better. 

1 minute ago, Alwin Alcott said:

thats true... but the need to express the profession in nearly every thread gets a bit stale.

I get that, but I don't get why that's such an outrage. I see a lot of things in this forum more worthy of that much froth on the lips.

[Amina Sopwith]

7 minutes ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

I'm not saying it's language nuance. I get the gist of what she means, and personally, I don't quite agree with it in relation to SL.  But dunno. I just think it could be handled better. 

I've reread my posts. I think they're pretty restrained. I certainly don't think they're abusive. I guess the one about discounts was a bit tart but if you're going to try to gain ground with the "service for disabled people" thing, then I do think it's a fair question. The AR button is there for anyone who disagrees.

I also understand what OP is saying, even aside from the clumsy phrasing. That's why I was prompted to respond (as I said, I've bitten my tongue on this one before because I wasn't sure it was my place to say). I am really, really uneasy with the way people with disabilities have been brought into this, more than once. I'm very sure it's not malicious, but it is bothering some people and they need to be able to say so.

[Sukubia Scarmon]

I never said you where abusive.

[Amina Sopwith]

1 minute ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

I never said you where abusive.

No, sorry. I just meant that if anyone thinks I've crossed a line they can AR. The A stands for "abuse", so it's the word I tend to use in this context. 

 

[Lewis Luminos]

6 hours ago, Bagnu said:

 An example would be myself. I help people live out their sexual fantasies here, (and make them feel human if they are RL disabled). 

Ugh. This is just... a truly horrible thing to say about people with disabilities. I'd be willing to lay a bet that you don't offer your services for free to someone who has a RL disability. If that's the case, you are really just exploiting their (percieved) needs for your own financial gain.

And you still have to advertise your profession in every post you make, I thought your discovery of the signature was going to put a stop to that? If you don't have anything to say that doesn't involve being a prostitute escort, you don't have anything to say that's relevant for the forum at all.

 

[Solar Legion]

Frankly, as someone with my own disabilities/issues ... I do not care one whit if the way others have reacted thus far is seen as heavy handed, abusive or any other absolute tripe.

Problems with language? Everyone's got them - some worse than others. it is not an excuse for what has been said at least twice now. It. Is. Not. An. Excuse.

After the push back from the first time, that should have been the end of it ... and i do not for one second buy the line that she did not know about the ability to have a Signature in the forum either - plenty of users have a signature line and it is right in the Account Settings page for the forum.

Could I be rather wrong in my reading of her? Sure - as of right now however, that is one Hades of an uphill battle to try and prove.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

14 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

plenty of users have a signature line and it is right in the Account Settings page for the forum.

There's one relevant aspect I'm thinking of: signatures are apparently off by default when you join the forums.
But well, yeah, pretty much every forum software has had such a feature for ages.

 

My personal quarrel with such threads like this one: highly complex topics are getting boiled down to two or three catchy phrases, apparently meant to be answered with a plain yes or no. But it cannot be answered that easily, due to a million fine details in-between. Rinse and repeat with adding another general statement with exactly the same presentation... it kinda seems like turning deep philosophy into an ordinary "hey, the weather is fine" comment.

I do feel reminded of certain mass-quoting comments by a specific poster in those avatar picture threads, for example. No idea if that's still happening, due to rarely visiting those threads anymore, but it remains a strong reminder.

[Tari Landar]

8 hours ago, Bagnu said:

 I help people live out their sexual fantasies here, (and make them feel human if they are RL disabled).

Evil is always evil though, and I want nothing to do with that!!!

I tried not to comment on this part, and I failed. 

To the first part, go find a rusty spork, sit, and spin, while you think about this.

As someone who has a specific handicap, which falls under the umbrella of a disability, I abhor everything you stand for, and it has nothing to do with what you have spent your sl life doing, but rather your attitude about every other person around you, how you describe it, how you speak about and treat others, all under the guise of being treated poorly yourself(which you are not, have not been, and should let go of that shpeal already). You, too, fit the definition of a narcissist, and you are most definitely not the kind person people have been attempting to portray you as when you say things like this. You have said this same thing at least a handful of times on the forum. Each and every time people have asked you, both politely and not to knock it the hell off because it's really, really, really offensive.  I don't believe for two seconds ANYONE has ever actually told you that you make them feel human, I think that's your ego pretending your LL's sexual gift to the grid, which apparently you think you are (you're not alone, loads of people seem to think they are) speaking to you.

Stop being so damn offensive all the time. People shouldn't need to keep pointing it out to you. Regardless of what one overzealous little wee willy might think, being infamous is rarely ever a good thing. If attention is what you crave, and negative attention fills that craving as well as positive does, then you have an actual problem (that's a general you, because it's also fitting for people who say things like "haters gonna hate" and "I make friends as easily as I do enemies, I'm proud of have both"). That's child-like, and narcissistic behavior that stems from some type of mental disorder (and I am NOT knocking mental health disorders, there is a myriad of them out there in the world, some are far more harmful to one's self and others, than other disorders are....narcissism is nearly always more damaging to others).

People try to put it nicely, people have tried to ask you to stop saying things like this. People have pointed out just how offensive it actually is. Instead of listening to them, you're letting some wee willy help you stroke your ego, and continuing with, well, the exact behavior that causes people to say you're "immoral". It has nothing to do with your chosen profession, hobby, whatever gets you off..it has to do with your behavior surrounding that and this weird ego that seems ot dictate you can do and say whatever you want and should someone say anything against it...they're just being mean. No, how about you're being mean and you need to quit.

To the second, bolding mine:

Calling people who are disabled not human, is evil, knock it the eff off already. 

[FairreLilette]

5 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

If it's such an important service for disabled people, I'd be interested to know if they get discounts if they're impoverished.

I think she may mean "feel alive again".  But, I've had men say that to me in real life.  It's something guys say who usually end up being married.  It's bull from the guy trying to justify himself, imo.  And, she fell for it.   However, I think I've had guys in real life tell me that line too..."you made me feel human again".  It's a line because they are usually married or heavily involved and want to play around before they get married.   All I can say is I've heard that sap before in real life.  The dudes are probably married and trying to justify fooling around.  It's manipulative too, from the guy.  Don't fall for that, Bagnu.  Lots and lots and lots of women could make them "feel human".   It's total bull.  

Edited August 2, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Luna Bliss]

"I feel human again" is an expression. It means one feels connected to life again after feeling disconnected, for whatever reason. It's also used hyperbolically -- I've heard people say "I feel human again" after taking a shower. The expression DOES NOT mean a person actually, literally felt like they were not human -- again, it's just an expression meaning something vital was missing from their life which is finally back again.

That being said, we can't blame Pearl for relating the fact that some of her disabled clients used this expression -- she's only revealing their words and accepting their feelings about the matter.  Apparently sex has been missing from their lives, and having this in their life again, in a non-pressured way where all they had to bring to the table was money,  and even if only virtually, made them feel 'alive'. I've heard this very expression used by people whose disability in RL prevents them from walking, and upon entering SL and being able to walk again (and even fly) say "I feel human again'.

So carry on with your scapegoating pile-on, those who get such a thrill in trashing others so you can feel superior for awhile, but at least be accurate and stop dissing her for repeating what her clients said makes them feel better. She's not calling disabled people 'inhuman' for God's sake. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[FairreLilette]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

"I feel human again" is an expression. It means one feels connected to life again after feeling disconnected, for whatever reason. It's also used hyperbolically -- I've heard people say "I feel human again" after taking a shower. The expression DOES NOT mean a person actually, literally felt like they were not human -- again, it's just an expression meaning something vital was missing from their life which is finally back again.

That being said, we can't blame Pearl for relating the fact that some of her disabled clients used this expression -- she's only revealing their words and accepting their feelings about the matter.  Apparently sex has been missing from their lives, and having this in their life again, in a non-pressured way where all they had to bring to the table was money,  and even in only a virtual way, made them feel 'alive'. I've heard this very expression used by people whose disability in RL prevents them from walking, and upon entering SL and being able to walk again (and even fly) say "I feel human again'.

So carry on with your scapegoating pile-on, those who get such a thrill in trashing others so you can feel superior for awhile, but at least be accurate and stop dissing her for repeating what her clients said makes them feel better. She's not calling disabled people 'inhuman' for God's sake. 

I agree.  The "line" obviously came from the clients.  However, I've heard it in real life, too.   And, they ended up being married or engaged.  It was to string me along though to be a part of their life or justify me as a side line.  No thank you.  

[Madelaine McMasters]

7 hours ago, Chromal Brodsky said:

In Secondlife, some even imagine living without arbitrary moral frameworks in a free and equitable spiritual culture, one with room for plurality.

Isn't "free and equitable" a moral framework?

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I agree.  The "line" obviously came from the clients.  However, I've heard it in real life, too.   And, they ended up being married or engaged.  It was to string me along though to be a part of their life or justify me as a side line.  No thank you. 

I'm sorry you were manipulated in this way. However what was a "line" in your experience does not automatically mean it's a "line" for all of Pearl's clients -- her clients could be genuinely expressing how they feel -- 'alive' again via their virtual experience with her.

[FairreLilette]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm sorry you were manipulated in this way. However what was a "line" in your experience does not automatically mean it's a "line" for all of Pearl's clients -- her clients could be genuinely expressing how they feel -- 'alive' again via their virtual experience with her.

It's possible.  But, most likely it's being used to manipulate her in some way, and that's my opinion of it.  I don't believe I made someone feel alive or human again in real life only to find out they are married or engaged.  If they felt "so alive and so human again" why didn't they call off the marriage for example?  Couldn't their girlfriend make them feel alive?  They are engaged to be married, so she must.  However, it is a line guys use...it's been used on me.  I saw what she wrote and wondered why she believed it?  What does it benefit her other than it appears to be working to keep her working for them.  

Edited August 2, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Bagnu]

8 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

That's my long winded way of saying a huge ego, which at its base core is the most polite way to describe narcissism, more often than not doesn't pan out like the one wielding it thinks it does. 

I totally agree. A huge ego is not a good thing, whether RL or SL. But really that come only come from the person behind the AV. I think a reasonable amount of vanity is good in RL,  but a large amount in SL helps us hone our RL aesthetic skills, and is wonderful for the SL economy.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm sorry you were manipulated in this way. However what was a "line" in your experience does not automatically mean it's a "line" for all of Pearl's clients -- her clients could be genuinely expressing how they feel -- 'alive' again via their virtual experience with her.

It's possible.  But, most likely it's being used to manipulate her in some way, and that's my opinion of it.  I don't believe I made someone feel alive or human again in real life only to find out they are married or engaged.  If they felt "so alive and so human again" why didn't they call off the marriage for example.  However, it is a line guys use...it's been used on me.  I saw what she wrote and wondered why she believed it?  What does it benefit her other than it appears to be working to keep her working for them.  

Have you considered that your partner actually did feel more 'alive' after their interaction with you...even if they were married.  Perhaps their marriage wasn't working or was stale yet they couldn't quite leave the person but wanted to have a quality experience with another. This is pretty common really, though I'd prefer they left their partner first and lived with honesty.

But to your 2nd point -- perhaps it benefits Pearl because she wants to feel she's doing something helpful or useful.

[Tari Landar]

24 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

"I feel human again" is an expression. It means one feels connected to life again after feeling disconnected, for whatever reason. It's also used hyperbolically -- I've heard people say "I feel human again" after taking a shower. The expression DOES NOT mean a person actually, literally felt like they were not human -- again, it's just an expression meaning something vital was missing from their life which is finally back again.

Most of us are very aware that is is an expression, when WE, ourselves, say it. It becomes less so when someone says it FOR US, however. Context is important and you[re ignoring that part.

25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That being said, we can't blame Pearl for relating the fact that some of her disabled clients used this expression -- she's only revealing their words and accepting their feelings about the matter.

I don't believe for even one iota of a second that anyone has ever actually said it to her.  However, even if that was the case, there comes a point when it becomes a problem to keep "revealing their words". That point was reached the first time she was told it's offensive. It was reached again the second time. Now, we are waaay past that point.

26 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So carry on with your scapegoating pile-on, those who get such a thrill in trashing others so you can feel superior for awhile, but at least be accurate and stop dissing her for repeating what her clients said makes them feel better. She's not calling disabled people 'inhuman' for God's sake. 

I get you think you're sticking up for her, but you're not. When you're told something is offensive, and you keep doing it anyway, it stops being a case of everyone else just being mean to you. (general you of course). How many times do we need to say something's offensive before you'll believe us that it's actually offensive, and we've every right to BE offended?