The Maitreya v5 Hype(?) Thread

[Janet Voxel]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Would you say that the success of Genus is owing to the (largely positive) reputation of Genesis?

Again, a rebrand, not on the level of TMP. I’m 100% sure most people didn’t know Genus was a rebrand. A lot of people didn’t know what Genesis Lab was to begin with. People KNOW about TMP.
 

Genesis Lab were the creators that “didn’t do omega” and they suffered for it. Beautiful heads but..... It’s very similar to the way lesser known bodies get the “but are there clothes for it?” It shows how important creator support is and how consumers will write off a product very easily.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

YES! Wouldn't that be nice?

But it would also impact negatively on what must surely be one of the most important and lucrative markets in the SL economy. Does LL dare compete directly, as they would be, with the likes of Maitreya and Catwa?

LL will only get a small cut of the money being funneled out of SL by the mesh body creators. New default avs could significantly lower the barriers for smaller creators, including those who want to create for niche markets. More diversity in offerings could well increase the economy (and perhaps retention too) and smaller creators are more likely to spend and recirculate their earnings within SL. The economic argument could well favour a new default avatar, similar to the way Bellisseria has sparked interest and spending.

 

(About the timeline for mesh bodies, what I remember is first there were FEET. And the grid said, oh yes please give us more. So there were shoes for the feet. And shoes and shoes and shoes until the grid was drowning in them. And somewhere in there came hands, and butts and ginormous boobs with nipples that could poke an eye out. Which were very popular in some circles, except they were separately textured prims on top of the clothing, so it was all a bit complicated and never really looked quite right. And then mesh bodies were invented, which made it all a wee bit simpler, except for the ways in which it was more complicated. But by then being in fashion had gotten so very complicated, everyone thought that was just the way it needs to be.)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

LL will only get a small cut of the money being funneled out of SL by the mesh body creators. New default avs could significantly lower the barriers for smaller creators, including those who want to create for niche markets. More diversity in offerings could well increase the economy (and perhaps retention too) and smaller creators are more likely to spend and recirculate their earnings within SL. The economic argument could well favour a new default avatar, similar to the way Bellisseria has sparked interest and spending.

Interesting analysis. Maybe? Certainly, I'm all in for more diversity, and finding ways to support smaller creators. And the Bellisseria analogy is a suggestive one.

1 hour ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

what I remember is first there were FEET

I do too! In fact, I have a feeling that one of the reasons I eventually went with Slink when I got my first mesh body was because they had a kind of name recognition factor for me.

[Kristi Dagger]

Having to use those silly save sticks with the outdated menu and taking away the alpha save slots killed this update for me.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

So what does an up to date menu look like, for example?

[Blush Bravin]

5 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Unless perhaps it was a nicely-done, lower-lag, default mesh avatar that everyone had access to automatically. That would be a game changer in so many ways.

It wouldn't solve anything. It would only add one more body to a long list of bodies that creators already don't have the time to support.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

It wouldn't solve anything. It would only add one more body to a long list of bodies that creators already don't have the time to support.

Well, for one thing it wouldn't cost L$2500 +.

And, if it were adopted widely enough, creators would definitely support it.

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, for one thing it wouldn't cost L$2500 +.

And, if it were adopted widely enough, creators would definitely support it.

I love Linden Lab .. truly I do, but have you seen the mesh avatars they've made?

[MoiraKathleen]

23 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

It wouldn't solve anything. It would only add one more body to a long list of bodies that creators already don't have the time to support.

It would also make things more confusing for new players, I think.

Here's a pipe dream, because I know it would never happen - invite the body makers to 'sponsor' a starter avatar by using their body (or one of their bodies if they market more than one) to be one of the starter avatars.  So we could have a Lara starter, an Eve starter, a Belleza Isis starter, a Slink Physique starter, etc., (and same for the males, from the male body makers).  Then, new accounts would have a body that was pretty much comparable with everyone else, and would know which clothes and accessories to buy.  Even if they all used system heads, it would still be a big step forward, I think. (It might also stimulate the creation of new (alt) accounts).

Edited February 6, 2020 by moirakathleen
never not ever

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I love Linden Lab .. truly I do, but have you seen the mesh avatars they've made?

Well, yes. Agreed!

Bitsy's suggestion, however, was predicated upon the assumption that it was "a nicely-done" avatar. If it isn't, then, yes, it would be pointless, or maybe even counter-productive.

[Marianne Little]

2 reasons I set Maitreya over Slink and Belleza.

You know we get Maitreya Lara with 5 feet without paying more?

Slink has their bodies in a "bundle" now, in addition to the separate parts. I am sure the complete body came as a result of demand from customers. It is easier for customers to use. But anyways, I have 3 sets of feet, 7 sets of hands (bought when they were static) plus the body. I can't get a bundle, because I don't have enough feet. First they sold the feet separate, so I bought the three common ones. I could not see much use for the 2 others... Yes, it is their store, they do what they want. Maitreya has also updated a lot of their popular mesh clothes to include Lara fit, just get a redelivery. Also some of their very popular shoes. I bought the Shearling boots in 2010, and got updated ones! Beat that, other designers. Maitreya +, Slink -.

While Maitreya can take some time with updates, they are not so slow as Belleza. Maitreya +, Belleza - . 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Marianne Little

[Kweopi]

17 hours ago, MaxMare said:

BoM alpha, or basically same alpha we used before with default avatar, it is really simple to make, you don`t have to have some mad skill, just a UV map and some graphic software (i.e. PS or Gimp which is free)..

• open SL avatar UV map in PS/Gimp (avatar is separated in 3 textures, upper body/lower body/head)
• create a new layer
• use selection tool like polygonal lasso (it`s the easiest one to work with, it allows you to fix, add, remove parts until you`re happy, then close selection by joining start point with last point)
• fill the selection with black color and deselect (Ctrl+D)
• hide UV map and save as .png (this is important, png supports transparency)
• upload texture, create a new alpha from closet and apply your texture, save

Important note, parts that are supposed to be hidden should be empty, parts of your avatar that are supposed to be visible should be solid color (usually black)...when selecting you can select the part you want to texture, meaning visible part of avatar, but if it`s easier for you to select parts that are going to be hidden, you can do that as well, just before adding fill/color, inverse the selection (Shift+Control+I)..

Another tip to save you some upload Lindens, you can use Local textures in SL Edit to test, any time you save over that same texture on your computer, it will get updated in SL. This way you only upload once, when you are sure you got it right...

Hope this helps!

is not about skills , more about time and money involved.  following your steps ,a medium skilled user will need 1hour work at least for an alpha and 10L upload.And now, let's pretend i have only 100 items in desperately need for alphas ( i have more, but i'll choose only the favs). What am i looking at is a prospect of future month working only for sl. 100 hours work and at least 1000 L spent ( if i get it right). Or i can use alpha cuts and wear them in no time.And all that for a benefit of a smaller, most of the time unnoticeable,  lag. All my appearance impact is never bigger than 40- 50k, so i don't think my alpha cuts will crash the sim.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

9 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

It wouldn't solve anything. It would only add one more body to a long list of bodies that creators already don't have the time to support.

Sorry, Blush. If you're saying that it wouldn't solve anything, you truly do not understand the situation. But why would you? You're keen on your Maitreya.

A nicely-done, low-lag default avatar would help resolve many problems for many people.

9 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I love Linden Lab .. truly I do, but have you seen the mesh avatars they've made?

Those are ancient. What were residents making at the time they came out? Compare it to that, not the advances made since. Did you notice that I mentioned it being nicely done and lower lag in my post on the previous page? It might mean partnering with others if they don't have the mesh creation skills in-house, but it could be done.

Together, both of your arguments are essentially "things are too broken to even think about fixing". Why stay stuck in that sort of mindset? If the Lab had done that we wouldn't have Bellisseria at all, let alone one that's improving in quality by the month.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

9 hours ago, moirakathleen said:

It would also make things more confusing for new players, I think.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see how it would be any more confusing than what new residents currently start with.

This is another "it's so broken we shouldn't bother trying to fix it" argument.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

3 hours ago, Kweopi said:

is not about skills , more about time and money involved.  following your steps ,a medium skilled user will need 1hour work at least for an alpha and 10L upload.And now, let's pretend i have only 100 items in desperately need for alphas ( i have more, but i'll choose only the favs). What am i looking at is a prospect of future month working only for sl. 100 hours work and at least 1000 L spent ( if i get it right). Or i can use alpha cuts and wear them in no time.And all that for a benefit of a smaller, most of the time unnoticeable,  lag. All my appearance impact is never bigger than 40- 50k, so i don't think my alpha cuts will crash the sim.

Not everyone will need to reinvent the alpha layer for every outfit. Besides the free packages available, they can often be reused. I do it all the time when creators don't bother. I can make my own easily but haven't needed to since the early years of mesh. It's also so much simpler when trying out demos (much appreciation for the creators who still include alphas). Click, alphas sorted, done.

You're right about the impact of the extra geometry on a single av. If you slive as a hermit, maybe there's no need. For those of us who are out and about though, every small bit of extra data to download (which happens even with low jelly settings) adds up. Then add in all of the inefficient mesh and texture use that's so common. Multiply it by everyone and everything.

Taken individually, no big deal. But it all adds up to something which matters.

A return to alpha layers as the norm instead of alpha cuts would help with that problem.

[steeljane42]

20 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

You're right about the impact of the extra geometry on a single av. If you slive as a hermit, maybe there's no need. For those of us who are out and about though, every small bit of extra data to download (which happens even with low jelly settings) adds up. Then add in all of the inefficient mesh and texture use that's so common. Multiply it by everyone and everything.

Taken individually, no big deal. But it all adds up to something which matters.

A return to alpha layers as the norm instead of alpha cuts would help with that problem.

You either overestimate the impact of it adding up or underestimate the impact of what people wear. Clothing, shoes and hairstyles with 500k+ triangles each do exist and are very common, people wear those "pets" and other fancy things all the time, they have their bits on, but hidden; the effect of making it inconvenient for many people and in some cases making it a pain to make clothing made in 5+ years work, is simple nothing compared to possible benefits.

Even onion layers, which have more impact I believe, are nothing compared to the rest.

I don't like to repeat myself and I already said same thing in similar thread, but think of it as percentages, instead of just "it adds up". Because, yeah, it might add up, but the drop in the ocean, if your scene with mid sized party already has 20m triangles in avis alone (and that's without anyone wearing heavy bodies, like belleza's or legacy). and, then you add the rezzed things, particles, etc. Do you really think you'll get any visible gains performance wise? Assuming you get 60fps and get whole 5% increase by magically removing alpha cuts, which is already unrealistic(I'd bet on 1-2% at most), that's 3 frames. If you're close to having a slideshow with 20fps, then 5% would get you 1 extra frame per second. Do you think you'd actually notice it in SL?

 

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

You either overestimate the impact of it adding up or underestimate the impact of what people wear. Clothing, shoes and hairstyles with 500k+ triangles each do exist and are very common, people wear those "pets" and other fancy things all the time, they have their bits on, but hidden; the effect of making it inconvenient for many people and in some cases making it a pain to make clothing made in 5+ years work, is simple nothing compared to possible benefits.

Even onion layers, which have more impact I believe, are nothing compared to the rest.

I don't like to repeat myself and I already said same thing in similar thread, but think of it as percentages, instead of just "it adds up". Because, yeah, it might add up, but the drop in the ocean, if your scene with mid sized party already has 20m triangles in avis alone (and that's without anyone wearing heavy bodies, like belleza's or legacy). and, then you add the rezzed things, particles, etc. Do you really think you'll get any visible gains performance wise? Assuming you get 60fps and get whole 5% increase by magically removing alpha cuts, which is already unrealistic(I'd bet on 1-2% at most), that's 3 frames. If you're close to having a slideshow with 20fps, then 5% would get you 1 extra frame per second. Do you think you'd actually notice it in SL?

How about a third possibility? That I'm aware of the different impacts - I've been reading the mesh creation section regularly since I started making my own mesh years ago and this topic is well covered - and advocate for reducing data bloat in all aspects of the grid, especially when there's an alternative means of achieving what you want.

Alpha cuts are a cumbersome system invented as a work around to a specific problem. That work around comes at the cost of increased data bloat. With BOM we have a better solution to the problem and one which will reduce that data bloat. And it's not insignificant. A bit of mesh for SL can have at most 8 separate faces (the parts you can texture differently). EVERY single one of those alpha cuts is a face. And every single vertex along the joins between the faces is duplicated in the data. If you eliminate the need for all of those faces, then you need far fewer seams and duplicated vertices. Less data bloat.

Trying to educate creators and customers in this is an uphill battle and there will always be those who don't care or don't want change or will argue that it's such a mess there's no point in doing anything. Because mesh bodies are some of the most widely used items and there are relatively few creators, the better those are optimised the greater impact they'll have over all.

The costs of a return to alpha layers will be contained and short-lived. The benefits will endure.

[MaxMare]

@Orwar I tried some deformers and I was quite happy with what they did with breasts, belly and butt, however, shoulders looked rather weird...My issue with Maitreya shoulders is lack of modeled anatomy and sadly deformers do not really solve the problem for this particular area... Some skin creators did wonders with painted details, however those are just sort of fixes, only remodeling problematic area/s would do the trick properly... Anyhow this was just wishful thinking, I`m aware they most likely won`t bother..why would they? Their product is still selling, residents are using it, creators creating for it...so far all their updates have been good enough too maintain their product`s presence, they have never shown any desire to be innovative, push the boundaries and offer the ultimate product in it`s field as a result...That said, I am grateful update was provided  as I already expressed in my initial post.

@KweopiI was just trying to help and explain the process in case someone wants to know, cause it`s really not that complicated and if you repeat it a few times it gets easier. Alphas can be reused and with BoM also stacked, so there are ways around it....also the one hour per alpha estimate is a bit too much and with SL fashion which is mostly repetitive I highly doubt you`d need 100 different alphas no matter the size of your closet. Creators have been adapting to changes brought by LL so far, I`m sure they will start adding BoM alphas from now on (some are already doing it)...

Regarding too much of everything (geometry, particles,scripts etc) that ship has sailed long ago...If LL decided to update default avatar years ago and did a better job with the uploader (forced creators to actually create game assets and not stuff fit for a CGI movie) we`d not have this mess right now, but yeah, too late to change anything now..Their biggest chunk of income is brought by creators through MP percentage, land ownership/renting etc, doubt they would opt for some major overhaul if it meant biting the hand that feeds them...In that sense, it comes down to end users to make better choices (what to buy, what to wear etc), however there are way to many ppl with "me-me-me" and "everyone is doing it which makes it ok" attitude so yeah lol we`re doomed!

 

 

[Janet Voxel]

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason LL hasn’t adopted Ruth/Roth 2.0? It has all the features of   a modern avatar i.e. bento, BoM (?) maybe the only thing that’s missing is a head. Why not use that?

There was another person that made an avatar 2.0 a while back. There has to be a reason LL hasn’t adopted a new avatar yet. Anybody have any ideas?

[Blush Bravin]

6 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Sorry, Blush. If you're saying that it wouldn't solve anything, you truly do not understand the situation. But why would you? You're keen on your Maitreya.

I wanted LL to make a new system body years ago before mesh bodies became the norm. It's too late. Sure LL could make a new avatar body but the time for that was long ago. Too many of us have invested in and very much enjoy our mesh body and would not give it up to start over with a new LL avatar. So as I said, creators would simply have one more mesh body heaped on top of the list of bodies. 

 

3 hours ago, MaxMare said:

Regarding too much of everything (geometry, particles,scripts etc) that ship has sailed long ago

^^^^ this! While I see the need to reduce complexity, I don't believe that LL creating a new mesh avatar body would even make a dent in the problem. Other areas are far more draining on resources.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Blush Bravin

[Nalates Urriah]

2 hours ago, janetosilio said:

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason LL hasn’t adopted Ruth/Roth 2.0? It has all the features of   a modern avatar i.e. bento, BoM (?) maybe the only thing that’s missing is a head. Why not use that?

There was another person that made an avatar 2.0 a while back. There has to be a reason LL hasn’t adopted a new avatar yet. Anybody have any ideas?

It's that legacy thing the Lab has. Their long history of maintaining legacy compatibility in all but extreme cases is the primary reason. Don't Break Existing Content...

All the time I have been here people have asked the Lindens about a new Avatar 2.0... same answer for years, existing content. 

Firestorm has a Classic avatar fix that improves the UV Map and if I remember correctly improves the vertices arrangement. But, it only affects your viewer, only you see it and it has to be reinstalled with each viewer update. It isn't great but it is a nice improvement. Mesh bodies are still better.

Ruth/Roth is built into the viewer. It is a bit tricky to get an original Ruth/Roth avatar these days. They are no longer the Test Male/Female bodies. From these changes one could speculate they are working to eventually eliminate the original Ruth/Roth avatars. But, I doubt it.

There is also the economic side of things. Once an industry builds up the Lindens won't wipe it out. If they did, the incentive to produce content for SL would die and creators would go elsewhere to be creative. There is a reputation to keep.

The idea is to keep SL healthy, which means the Lab has to show a profit. They have done a good job so far, albeit with some bumps.

[MoiraKathleen]

6 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see how it would be any more confusing than what new residents currently start with.

This is another "it's so broken we shouldn't bother trying to fix it" argument.

My response had been to someone else's comment regarding another body that creators are not making clothes for.   I may be wrong, but a few years ago wasn't there a group of new mesh avatars that no one was making clothes for?  It seems like for awhile in the Answers section when people were having trouble finding clothes, the suggestion was to switch to one of the classic starter avatars which could more easily wear system and/or standard size mesh clothes.  And I'm not sure if that group of starter avatars are still available.

I am not against new starter avatars, as long as there is existing clothing that will work for them.  With BOM, this might be easier than it had been in the past - if new mesh starter avatars were built so that the standard sizing mesh clothes (which generally come with alpha layers) worked well on them, for example.

[Janet Voxel]

44 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

It's that legacy thing the Lab has. Their long history of maintaining legacy compatibility in all but extreme cases is the primary reason. Don't Break Existing Content...

All the time I have been here people have asked the Lindens about a new Avatar 2.0... same answer for years, existing content.

Right. I get that, that’s not what I’m saying.

So over the years, LL has offered various starter avatars. There was a point in time the starter avatars were mesh, but uncustomizable. That didn’t break the legacy content. They just relegated the older legacy avatars to a folder and that was that. Then they went back to the system avatar with updated mesh outfits.

Ruth/Roth 2.0 is an updated version of the system avatar, basically the same thing with a better topology and higher poly, but not super high like people complain about.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/PROJECT-Ruth-20-Release-Candidate-1v2/16068068
 

So what I’m wondering is why don’t they just adopt a body like that. Have that be the starter avatar, relegate the other avatars to a folder like before so that legacy content won’t be broken. Technically, you’d still be wearing the system avatar like you do now, so you don’t have to worry about buying all of the things you have to now. You’d also, start out with exactly what everybody else has ie a mesh body and head and all the same rules apply.

So basically what I’m saying is: Ruth/Roth 2.0 (or something similar)>learn all the mesh rules with new noob body>branch out into other mesh products and not have to learn everything all over again because you’ve been working with similar ways of doing things since day one.

There has to be a reason they haven’t done that.

[Blush Bravin]

7 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Those are ancient. What were residents making at the time they came out?

My reference to LL made avatars is from a very recent encounter with the ones in Sansar. Those aren't ancient by any means.

[Maitimo]

14 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

Right. I get that, that’s not what I’m saying.

So over the years, LL has offered various starter avatars. There was a point in time the starter avatars were mesh, but uncustomizable. That didn’t break the legacy content. They just relegated the older legacy avatars to a folder and that was that. Then they went back to the system avatar with updated mesh outfits.

Ruth/Roth 2.0 is an updated version of the system avatar, basically the same thing with a better topology and higher poly, but not super high like people complain about.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/PROJECT-Ruth-20-Release-Candidate-1v2/16068068
 

So what I’m wondering is why don’t they just adopt a body like that. Have that be the starter avatar, relegate the other avatars to a folder like before so that legacy content won’t be broken. Technically, you’d still be wearing the system avatar like you do now, so you don’t have to worry about buying all of the things you have to now. You’d also, start out with exactly what everybody else has ie a mesh body and head and all the same rules apply.

So basically what I’m saying is: Ruth/Roth 2.0 (or something similar)>learn all the mesh rules with new noob body>branch out into other mesh products and not have to learn everything all over again because you’ve been working with similar ways of doing things since day one.

There has to be a reason they haven’t done that.

Legacy content fits Ruth/Roth2.0 anyway, as its BOM-enabled, and uses alpha layers instead of a hud, and it can fit standard sizes in mesh clothes as easily as the classic avatar does. So even if Ruth/Roth2.0 were included with the default starter avatars, nothing prior becomes obsolete.