The Maitreya v5 Hype(?) Thread

[Amanda Dallin]

10 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

"Again"? That would imply that it was reliable once.

It has been more reliable than now.  Xings have always had ups and down but the downs are a lot more extreme than the ups which never get beyond "barely acceptable"

At the moment their horrible.

[AyelaNewLife]

This approach to BoM is pretty much ideal, to be honest. I know it will fall short of what the fundamentalists have been demanding for the last year or two, but this will deliver practical rendering weight savings without stripping the user of features. It's a fantastic compromise, which makes Slink look amateurish in her puritanical approach.

I'm ambivalent on the attached hands/feet issue. It's nice to remove the subtle seams (yes, they were there; and oddly more visible on low graphics settings than high), but removing the ability for people to mix and match brands isn't ideal. No real strong feelings either way, from me.

Feet autoselect is a nice QoL addition, however. And the auto-alpha logic upgrades are great, as is the splitting up of the layer sections into smaller chunks. So yeah, all in all this sounds like a great QoL update; no reason not to upgrade, bar a tiny handful of fringe exceptions.

[Theresa Tennyson]

23 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

This approach to BoM is pretty much ideal, to be honest. I know it will fall short of what the fundamentalists have been demanding for the last year or two, but this will deliver practical rendering weight savings without stripping the user of features. It's a fantastic compromise, which makes Slink look amateurish in her puritanical approach.

I called that some time ago. Slink, with their much smaller market share, picked the "Apple" approach and decided to be as aggressive as possible. Personally I love the fact that my Slink bodies have no unnecessary subdivisions and with the way I tend to set up my outfits alpha HUD's in general drive me up a tree.

Maitreya, by necessity, went with the "Microsoft" approach. I agree that how they did things is a very good approach for the position they're in, but it's not going to change my mind about how I want to do things.

[Blush Bravin]

On 1/30/2020 at 12:29 PM, Matty Luminos said:

As long as left and right hands can be alpha'ed out separately, like they can with Signature and Belleza. If its both-or-neither, I won't be updating mine.

You can alpha them independently of each other.

[Cinos Field]

53 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

This approach to BoM is pretty much ideal, to be honest. I know it will fall short of what the fundamentalists have been demanding for the last year or two, but this will deliver practical rendering weight savings without stripping the user of features. It's a fantastic compromise, which makes Slink look amateurish in her puritanical approach.

I'm ambivalent on the attached hands/feet issue. It's nice to remove the subtle seams (yes, they were there; and oddly more visible on low graphics settings than high), but removing the ability for people to mix and match brands isn't ideal. No real strong feelings either way, from me.

Feet autoselect is a nice QoL addition, however. And the auto-alpha logic upgrades are great, as is the splitting up of the layer sections into smaller chunks. So yeah, all in all this sounds like a great QoL update; no reason not to upgrade, bar a tiny handful of fringe exceptions.

If you have two systems that do the same thing, except one does it better to the point of making the other completely obsolete, while also using fewer resources... why include both?

It's a common-sense approach, hardly a "puritanical" one.

(though that said  it's not that much of a resource drain, not like onion layers were, so for people who really enjoy chunking away at their bodies, it's a fine enough inclusion)

Edited January 31, 2020 by Cinos Field

[AyelaNewLife]

7 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

If you have two systems that do the same thing, except one does it better to the point of making the other completely obsolete, while also using fewer resources... why include both?

It's a common-sense approach, hardly a "puritanical" one.

(though that said  it's not that much of a resource drain, not like onion layers were, so for people who really enjoy chunking away at their bodies, it's a fine enough inclusion)

Your argument assumes that applier layers are now obsolete, and that system layers are all you need now. 

Which is objectively false. In part because of the immense backlog of content which cannot (legally) be converted by the user to system layers, and in part because of the glove/sock/clothing layers which cannot be replicated by bodypaint-esque system layers.

Hence why insisting that well over half a decade's worth of content must now be thrown out when there exists a perfectly reasonable and proportionate alternative is puritanical. Because it is puritanical, valuing philosophical purity over practicality and presenting that as the only option.

[Marianne Little]

Those who dislike that the body is in one part now, not separate hands and feet, I have a question:

Would you use it if it still had separate hands and feet, or would you point at another thing and say, "Nay, that thing is a dealbreaker too."

Because if many enough will have Maitreya body with Slink hands and feet, maybe we get a 5.1 version with that as an alternative. But I doubt Maitreya will take that work for only a small percentage, that dislike many things with the body and will not wear it, even with separate hands and feet. 

[Cinos Field]

47 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Your argument assumes that applier layers are now obsolete, and that system layers are all you need now. 

Which is objectively false. In part because of the immense backlog of content which cannot (legally) be converted by the user to system layers, and in part because of the glove/sock/clothing layers which cannot be replicated by bodypaint-esque system layers.

Hence why insisting that well over half a decade's worth of content must now be thrown out when there exists a perfectly reasonable and proportionate alternative is puritanical. Because it is puritanical, valuing philosophical purity over practicality and presenting that as the only option.

The practical approach isn't to offer backwards compatibility for outdated technologies forever. It's to wipe the slate clean now and then.

edit: Sorry, I'm not actually this invested in it, I just hate the idea of my preferred approach being somehow "fanatical" when it seems like the perfectly logical to me.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Cinos Field

[Maitimo]

8 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Those who dislike that the body is in one part now, not separate hands and feet, I have a question:

Would you use it if it still had separate hands and feet, or would you point at another thing and say, "Nay, that thing is a dealbreaker too."

Because if many enough will have Maitreya body with Slink hands and feet, maybe we get a 5.1 version with that as an alternative. But I doubt Maitreya will take that work for only a small percentage, that dislike many things with the body and will not wear it, even with separate hands and feet. 

For me it depends how the alpha hud will work with attached hands. If I can alpha the hands individually, then it will be fine (and assuming also that the alpha cuts on the arms are in the same places as before). But if the hud for v5 does not allow for hands to be alphaed individually, or if the alpha cuts for the arms are not in the same places as they were before, the mod for my missing arm won't work any more, in which case I'll be sticking with v4.1.

[Maitimo]

38 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You can alpha them independently of each other.

That's good to know, thank you. 

The one remaining issue for me then, is whether the new alpha cuts will be different from or the same as the old ones.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

The update is out.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

... and the first "mimimi, the update is so hard! I'm switching to Belleza or Legacy!" posts are coming in in inworld group chats. 😄

[Orwar]

4 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

... and the first "mimimi, the update is so hard! I'm switching to Belleza or Legacy!" posts are coming in in inworld group chats. 😄

   It's not easy being dim and impatient. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

This approach to BoM is pretty much ideal, to be honest. I know it will fall short of what the fundamentalists have been demanding for the last year or two, but this will deliver practical rendering weight savings without stripping the user of features. It's a fantastic compromise, which makes Slink look amateurish in her puritanical approach.

 

1 hour ago, Cinos Field said:

If you have two systems that do the same thing, except one does it better to the point of making the other completely obsolete, while also using fewer resources... why include both?

It's a common-sense approach, hardly a "puritanical" one.

I am of two minds on the importance, for the user, of retaining alpha cuts. On the one hand, it is more convenient, especially for those who are used to using them. And it means that older mesh clothing, which doesn't include an alpha layer, will remain as easy to use as it has always been. On the other, it is more convenient, really, largely because it lets users who don't want to learn a new (if fairly simple) approach, and clothing makers, off the hook. Objectively speaking, alpha layers are a better, more efficient, and more effective approach.

In a sense, though, this is an academic discussion. Maitreya's utter stranglehold on the market, and more specifically its enormous impact on clothing makers for women, means that this "compromise" approach is what is going to prevail. It will become, de facto, the new way of doing things.

What is a bit sad about that is that it will, possibly anyway, accelerate the process of driving clothing makers away from producing versions of clothing for other makes. If they, but not Maitreya, require the inclusion of alpha layers -- and Maitreya already dominates the market -- why bother with the extra work involved in producing that? New clothing will either not come with alpha layers, making it effectively more difficult to use with other makes of body . . . or makers who have been producing clothes for those other makes will stop because of the extra work involved.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Maitreya may have just completely sabotaged what was supposed to be the "new" way of doing things.

And this is one of the reasons why Maitreya's near monopoly is a bad thing. Not necessarily because they will be "evil," or do "bad things," but simply because their decisions and choices will become, inevitably, the new practice.

[Angelina String]

Well, it's at least fun to see that alpha layers are back and working

As you see - no alpha cuts selected, but a clothing item alpha added!

And also, you can assign one of the five feet positions induvidually to each feet - cool for poses and if you want to have a sneaker on one foot and heels on the other

 

[Angelina String]

And btw - removing the alpha cut option would render large parts of my wardrobe unuseable. I have plenty of clothing that requires use of alpha cuts, but they have no alpha included.

 

[MoiraKathleen]

3 minutes ago, Angelina String said:

have no alpha included

For anyone that may be interested, Peony's "The Little Black Dress" store has a box with a great assortment of alpha layers - I think it's 1L on the marketplace (so it can be gifted), but free at her in-world store location.  There were a couple in her boxed set that weren't ones provided by Slink, so I was really pleased with what was included.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Angelina String said:

And btw - removing the alpha cut option would render large parts of my wardrobe unuseable. I have plenty of clothing that requires use of alpha cuts, but they have no alpha included.

 

Well, yes and no. Slink Redux includes a really large selection of alpha layers that you can stack and that effectively reproduce the same effect as alpha cuts, more efficiently (although not as "easily").

[MoiraKathleen]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, yes and no. Slink Redux includes a really large selection of alpha layers that you can stack and that effectively reproduce the same effect as alpha cuts, more efficiently (although not as "easily").

For clothes I had which didn't come with alpha layers, after I find the alpha layers that work, either from the 2 sets offered by Slink, or the Little Black Dress set, I make a copy of the alpha(s) and put them in the folder with the clothing item - then when I want to wear an item the appropriate alphas are right there, and if you make an outfit, they get saved with the outfit.  There is the initial set-up' time for identifying which alpha layers are needed, but after that, I find it 'easier' than dealing with alpha cuts on a HUD.

[Angelina String]

30 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, yes and no. Slink Redux includes a really large selection of alpha layers that you can stack and that effectively reproduce the same effect as alpha cuts, more efficiently (although not as "easily").

Well, would not this make it easy for designers to continue business as usual then? There soon will be "Alpha Cut" alpha-kits out available specific fot different bodies  or universal ones probably (as there already are...) and then designers can decide if they want to include their own alphas?  No higher risk than before that designers will stop supporting different bodies as I see it, perhaps even the opposite... I have quite few standard size mesh clothes which fits quite well  exept they did not match the alpha cut divisions - I can wear those now with their included system alpha, or a modified/universal one...

FWIW - Complexity of a "stripped" 5.0 (no scripts/no layers) is 4946 vs 12522 for a 4.1 with hands and feet.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Angelina String
complexity figures added

[steeljane42]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Maitreya may have just completely sabotaged what was supposed to be the "new" way of doing things.

More like followed the market's needs and wants. And market didn't want to reinvent the wheel, especially if it's a square one. Like already mention earlier in this thread, it's the forum regulars who like to discuss complexity and how to do it more "right". Alphas, in a way they used to be, are gone for half a decade, at least for those who didn't held to the classic SL avatars forever for one reason or another. And don't think I've met a single person in world that would be missing them since that. But Ive met quite a few "mesh ruined SL!" type of people, who are stuck with their pre-alphas avatars, using painted on clothing and sleeves/collars made of prims, plus glorious shoes that use invisible prim and don't render with ALM on.

Now you or others may argue that "market is not right", but don't what is right and wrong is subjective. I'm personally happy with alpha cuts and never missed using alpha layers since 2014. With that update the options for both, alpha cuts and alpha layers are back. How/if creators going to use them is up to them. You can always send a suggestion/request to the your favorite clothing creators. But don't think I've seen any alpha layers in any "big store's" releases since slink's redux update.

And no, I don't agree with your previous message how users can create their own alphas. Most actually can't, they have difficulties in just using SL as is and you want them to learn GIMP and create own alphas? Also don't forget that many people use SL for just an hour every few days, sometimes just on weekends or free days. They need convenience. Alpha cuts and further development of it - auto-alpha, and, now even auto-feet,  are the parts of this convenience.

So no, I see it the other way around. It's the Slink's creator who did rush and made it all wrong, without any consideration of their market/users. Signature, who are the market leaders for male bodies (they have Gianni and Geralt as well as not very supported female body named Alice) have it the same way and they updated before maitreya. Pretty safe to say that Belleza will not going to have any radical changes whenever they'll update, too. Probably just going to separate layers and call it a day. Nothing to do with monopolies, just actually knowing their users' wants and needs, unlike certain creators.

Edit:

But yeah, this does reminds me a few discussion with "old-timers" I had, shortly after just starting SL and through the years. They desperately wanted their "old methods" to stay around no matter what and blamed LL for changing anything at all and creators for following the trends. First it was the mesh in general, then mesh body parts, then mesh bodies, then mesh heads. And I wouldn't be surprised if before same people argued about sculpties being bad, while prims should be the right way to go.

If anything, this update added ability for such users to have it their way. Want to use alpha - use it. Forcing everyone to like it and saying it's the best way, is rather unwise.

Edited February 1, 2020 by steeljane42

[MoiraKathleen]

14 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

So no, I see it the other way around. It's the Slink's creator who did rush and made it all wrong, without any consideration of their market/users. Signature, who are the market leaders for male bodies (they have Gianni and Geralt as well as not very supported female body named Alice) have it the same way and they updated before maitreya. Pretty safe to say that Belleza will not going to have any radical changes whenever they'll update, too. Probably just going to separate layers and call it a day. Nothing to do with monopolies, just actually following the users' wants and needs, unlike certain creators.

I don't know if we can tell really what the "market" wants - perhaps we can for the segment of the market for the communities that we're most familiar with, but I don't think there is anyone that has the visibility of the whole market. 

I prefer alpha layers to alpha cuts, and I also prefer system layers to applier layers.  Other than the type of item that I would have used an applier for, I am wearing recent mesh clothing, rigged for the body I use - so I'm not in the category described as "stuck with their pre-alphas avatars, using painted on clothing and sleeves/collars made of prims...".  I probably do not shop at the "big stores" though (I'm not exactly sure which ones those are),  so I'm pretty sure I'm not in the same "market" as you, but I doubt that I am the only one. 

I'm in the market that agrees with the direction Slink's creator took - it meets my needs very well.  It might be that I'm in not in the majority market, but for me that just means I'm living my SL pretty much the way I've lived RL - no matter how much I want to be like everyone else, no matter how much I want to be in the "in" crowd, there always seems to be something that keeps me from blindly committing to things or blindly following along just so that I'll fit in better.

[Theresa Tennyson]

29 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

But yeah, this does reminds me a few discussion with "old-timers" I had, shortly after just starting SL and through the years. They desperately wanted their "old methods" to stay around no matter what and blamed LL for changing anything at all and creators for following the trends. First it was the mesh in general, then mesh body parts, then mesh bodies, then mesh heads. And I wouldn't be surprised if before same people argued about sculpties being bad, while prims should be the right way to go.

"Old methods" like alpha-cut HUD's?

[steeljane42]

13 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

I don't know if we can tell really what the "market" wants - perhaps we can for the segment of the market for the communities that we're most familiar with, but I don't think there is anyone that has the visibility of the whole market. 

I prefer alpha layers to alpha cuts, and I also prefer system layers to applier layers.  Other than the type of item that I would have used an applier for, I am wearing recent mesh clothing, rigged for the body I use - so I'm not in the category described as "stuck with their pre-alphas avatars, using painted on clothing and sleeves/collars made of prims...".  I probably do not shop at the "big stores" though (I'm not exactly sure which ones those are),  so I'm pretty sure I'm not in the same "market" as you, but I doubt that I am the only one. 

I'm in the market that agrees with the direction Slink's creator took - it meets my needs very well.  It might be that I'm in not in the majority market, but for me that just means I'm living my SL pretty much the way I've lived RL - no matter how much I want to be like everyone else, no matter how much I want to be in the "in" crowd, there always seems to be something that keeps me from blindly committing to things or blindly following along just so that I'll fit in better.

Oh, we can tell for sure. Just compare how well supported and popular slink physique vs how popular a total disaster of a body from one shady store, that is cost twice over any other one and most new on the market. Yeah, that's what market wants, because it looks prettier. Until you zoom closer and see those seams that is. That's how a certain mesh head creator got their (now dwindling, though) popularity pre-bento days. Those things were over 1.3m of triangles despite low complexity, but were on high demand (they did cost even more than current bento ones, if count all animation addons), so creator kept releasing new ones almost every 2 week at its peak.

Big stores are ones like Blueberry, Addams, Scandalize and other shopping events (like c88, k9, fameshed and many more) regulars.

And never said about following anyone or anything. Do it the way you like it. I would personally just skipped the update if it didn't had working alpha cuts myself, no matter how popular it would be. Or would use the nom bom version of the updated body, assuming they'd include it like slink did.

 

5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

"Old methods" like alpha-cut HUD's?

Not as old as regular alphas, that's for sure. No, reintroducing the old method, which is regular alphas, doesn't make it new or any better.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

5 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

No, reintroducing the old method, which is regular alphas, doesn't make it new or any better.

.....

...how popular a total disaster of a body from one shady store, that is cost twice over any other one and most new on the market. Yeah, that's what market wants, because it looks prettier. Until you zoom closer and see those seams that is.

And why exactly are those seams there?