Do you want better parcel privacy?

[Aethelwine]

On 11/18/2019 at 3:01 AM, Erwin Solo said:

We need to know how many avatars are around so we can interpret Region-lag in context of avatar load.  I don't really care where on Region the avatars are, but I need to know how many.  Well, on my Region where I'm Estate Owner, I want to keep all the tools I've got, but I don't see any of those going away; LL has been making Estate tools better.

Even as just a landowner, I would want to be able to tell if the lag I was experiencing was due to a temporary party or someone stacking up alts for a game or whatever purpose. Without being able to do that I wouldn't know what the cause was and whether there was an abuse of resources on the sim or not.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Yeah I have had people enter and I presume that was via using my furniture.

 

... rant incoming ...

 

My solution is one much of the community wants banned.

I use 0 second no warning TP home orbs.

BUT...

That's only half my solution.

I make a solid wall around my skybox. And the orb ONLY effects things that are fully inside the wall...

My thinking is that if you get in you knew you didn't belong in there due to the wall and it was no accident... So goodbye

As for 0 seconds...

I don't want to even know you popped in on me. I want you gone before I can see what happened. I will only find out a month later when looking at my logs.

Why should I have to wait for you to barge around me in my skybox for 15 seconds before I toss You? Why should I have to interrupt what I am doing to toss You?

The wall was there, you tricked your way past it... You need to go... and sending you home.,, means you have to spend the hassle to get back...

This is why, even though I now live on Bellisseria, I keep space on mainland... because if they have a covenant requiring warning and time - then there's never any ability to have private time along or intimate...

 

[Maitimo]

Complete indifference from me, tbh. I don't have any particular need for additional privacy settings, I don't even make much use of the ones I already have. But provided that it's optional, as current ones are, I wouldn't object if they were implemented and I wouldn't care if land I visited had those options in place.

[Paul Hexem]

If they're not hidden from scripts or the world map, what's the point? Sounds like an incomplete feature that won't do anything except make drama and make estate security harder.

[kali Wylder]

I agree With Matty which is kind of funny because I am an extremely private person in RL but in SL I don't care much who sees my pixels. Not only that I kinda like perve camming and I'm a bit nosy, so I will look everywhere I'm allowed to, but I don't care enough to push for it.

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Gadget Portal said:

If they're not hidden from scripts or the world map, what's the point? Sounds like an incomplete feature that won't do anything except make drama and make estate security harder.

Most people these days don't rely on scripted radars since TPV's like Firestorm offered their own "Radar" menu & LL's viewer followed with its "People" menu,  both of which are affected by this "change".

The old school or hard core trolls/griefers might still fall back on a scripted radar to find people currently in sim, but the not-so-savy trolls/griefers looking for minimap dots in the current sim or adjacent sims won't find targets as easily.

[Lindal Kidd]

14 hours ago, ChinRey said:

It can but in my experience at least people generally respect a locked door.

I never do!

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

If they're not hidden from scripts or the world map, what's the point?

i agree with this. When agent uuid is not also hidden from scripts situated outside of the parcel then is a waste of time

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I never do!

Not even if I offer you chocolate if you stay out?

[Pussycat Catnap]

16 hours ago, ChinRey said:

It can but in my experience at least people generally respect a locked door.

Reasonable people do.

Which is why on my mainland I am perfectly willing to put a world of hurtful instant zapping and no-warning stuff on the OTHER SIDE of that door...

 

[ChinRey]

1 minute ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Reasonable people do.

Do reasonable people use SL?

 

1 minute ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Which is why on my mainland I am perfectly willing to put a world of hurtful instant zapping and no-warning stuff on the OTHER SIDE of that door...

You have a very important point there. There is a huge difference between ban lines/security orbs that are restricted within a clearly marked ares (such as the inside of a house or a skybox - or a fenced off field even) and those you can't see before they hit you. I can't see how anybody can have any reasonable objections against the former but the latter can cause problems and conflicts.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Quote

Do reasonable people use SL?

Word...

7 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

You have a very important point there. There is a huge difference between ban lines/security orbs that are restricted within a clearly marked ares (such as the inside of a house or a skybox - or a fenced off field even) and those you can't see before they hit you. I can't see how anybody can have any reasonable objections against the former but the latter can cause problems and conflicts.

Yeah the ones that are hidden and just hit people - call in the AR party, I'm there.

[Bree Giffen]

So if this was working, I could be on my parcel with no dot on the mini-map and a next door neighbor could be also have no dot on the mini-map but we'd still see dots on main map? It just doesn't seem very useful to me.

[Lindal Kidd]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Not even if I offer you chocolate if you stay out?

Ooooh, that's a hard one.  Chocolate, or snooping?  Snooping, or chocolate?  That chocolate sure looks yummy.  And snooping is wrong, you know that, Lindal.  On the other hand, if I snoop, maybe I'll find MORE chocolate.  Maybe even dark chocolate truffles!  OK...snooping it is!

[ChinRey]

29 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

On the other hand, if I snoop, maybe I'll find MORE chocolate.

Maybe but it may be rat droppings. You never know. Are you willing to take the risk?

33 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

 Maybe even dark chocolate truffles!

Anybody who stores those in their house is bound to have some serious security ... and willpower that'll make a dimaond seem soft by comparasion.

[Adam Spark]

No. There is already way too much in the way of privacy controls for this COMMUNITY.

[Paul Hexem]

9 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Most people these days don't rely on scripted radars since TPV's like Firestorm offered their own "Radar" menu & LL's viewer followed with its "People" menu,  both of which are affected by this "change".

The old school or hard core trolls/griefers might still fall back on a scripted radar to find people currently in sim, but the not-so-savy trolls/griefers looking for minimap dots in the current sim or adjacent sims won't find targets as easily.

Forget scripted radars, there's a ton of functions and applications for parcel and sim owners to consider, too.

[steeljane42]

6 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

No. There is already way too much in the way of privacy controls for this COMMUNITY.

Last time I checked SL was an online platform/world, not the community. And quite a lot of people don't log to SL for the community aspect of it. Quite visible on islands vs mainland numbers, too, even before you discard abandoned part of the mainland. People love their privacy for the most part, even in SL. Crazy concept, I know.

---

Anyways, for the topic, more privacy is always good. I'd also love the parcel (or viewer) setting to NOT see other parcels, but the one I'm at. Before I got my region I did rent parcels of various sizes for a few years and got quite tired of constant derendering ugly stuff people put on their parcels and were visible from mine. It's less of an issue if you live in skies, since it's easier to find a spot where even with decent enough zoom distance you won't see anything else, but on the ground level (which I prefer for my main living area) it's a disaster and usually never ending, because some people just love to rebuild every 2 days and some don't stay around for too long and when new tenant moves in it's time to start over.

Edit:

Come to think of it, the reverse of parcel visibility would be nice to have as well. An option in parcel settings to make everything, but ground/water, invisible from the outside, just like it works with avatars.

Edited November 20, 2019 by steeljane42

[Lucia Nightfire]

9 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

So if this was working, I could be on my parcel with no dot on the mini-map and a next door neighbor could be also have no dot on the mini-map but we'd still see dots on main map? It just doesn't seem very useful to me.

The world map doesn't always update instantly. There are plenty of times you can see dots in a region, teleport there and no one will be there because they left a few minutes ago.

4 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

Forget scripted radars, there's a ton of functions and applications for parcel and sim owners to consider, too.

Again, I am not aware if there are exclusions for land owners, estate owners, estate managers or group owners to still be able to see minimap icons, or presence in the People menu or Radar menu. I am also unaware if this is an additional option that can be turned on/off with a parcel/region setting or if it is a change to existing functionality.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Lucia Nightfire

[Adam Spark]

7 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Last time I checked SL was an online platform/world, not the community. And quite a lot of people don't log to SL for the community aspect of it. Quite visible on islands vs mainland numbers, too, even before you discard abandoned part of the mainland. People love their privacy for the most part, even in SL. Crazy concept, I know.

This wasn't nearly as true when twice as many people would log in to the grid.

[steeljane42]

3 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

This wasn't nearly as true when twice as many people would log in to the grid.

I'm around for 7 years, so while I didn't seen the days with 70-80k people online, I do remember the 60-62k ones. it was just about the same back then already and private regions vastly outnumbered mainland, even if count all regions that LL put up for sailing and other similar stuff, with zero residental areas (and again, if count those and abandoned mainland out, it's even bigger difference).

Besides who cares about how it was a decade ago to begin with? Those days are long gone, the times of prim building in world are long gone as well. The world, people and SL with it has changed a lot. You may like it or not, but that's how it is. Maybe back in the days SL was the social "community" for in-world building with prims, now it's very social circles and shopping oriented. Just about everyone I know who even cares to have own corner in SL has their own private one and wants to not be bothered outside of people those choose to interact with by themselves. There's no "community" as is a global SL thing, only smaller ones for various interests, be it building, scripting, RP or anything else.

In this sense SL reminds me a lot of RL, at least the "living in big city" type of RL. Sure, it might be different if you live in small rural area with a couple thousands people where everyone know each other, but in big city you see thousands if not tens of thousands of people daily and you have close to no interactions with any of them. You buy their products and services as well, also almost daily. And yet there's no global community whatsoever. And yes, people value their privacy very much and they take that into SL as well.

[ChinRey]

23 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Last time I checked SL was an online platform/world, not the community. And quite a lot of people don't log to SL for the community aspect of it. Quite visible on islands vs mainland numbers, too, even before you discard abandoned part of the mainland. People love their privacy for the most part, even in SL. Crazy concept, I know.

If people are that concerned about their privacy, there are always single sims in the middle of nowhere for them. Block strangers from even entering the region and all other security measures become irrelevant. The people who want total privacy are not a problem, there's plenty of room for them on the grid. If they turn out to be the majority of SL users, well, that's fine. It only means we need more such full privacy sims. Problems only arise when people want to both have their cake and eat it - when they want the benefits of a community but not the downsides.

Second Life is at its core something as paradoxal as an antisocial social medium. It was made for people to get together but it lacks most of the cultural and biological mechanisms that allow people to coexist without ripping each others' throats out. Fortunately it also lacks most of the mechanisms that allow people to rip each others' throats out, if it didn't we'd have a bloodbath here.

Many of those community building mechanisms could have been built into SL right from the start but they weren't because even though the original creators were (and still are) absolutely brilliant in their fields of expertise they were (and may still be for all I know) rather ignorant in other fields, such as sociology.

 

16 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

This wasn't nearly as true when twice as many people would log in to the grid.

That raises the questions why do people leave SL and would the retention rate have been higher if it had been geared more towards community building? To answer we need to find a portal to an alternative reality where SL took a different course. As far as I know, nobody's done that yet.

[Resi Pfeffer]

I had to learn the hard way not to stay sitted on adult furniture while being AFK for a while. ^^
But instead of locking up my parcel, i just get up, or log out these days, and my home keeps open for everyone.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer
typo

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/17/2019 at 9:48 PM, Lucia Nightfire said:

Figured I'd share an experience I had yesterday while hunting down a bug.

While in the region, Nautilus - Hannibal I noticed that parcel privacy was additionally not showing minimap icons for agents , nor were these agents shown in the People or Radar menus.

This behavior was the same while in an adjacent region looking in.

Agents are not hidden from scripts or the World Map, though.

This behavior was too specific to be a bug. It had to have been a hidden console parameter left on by a Linden or support.

The region was restarted today and this behavior is no longer present.

The question is, how many of you would want this functionality to be included with how parcel privacy works now?

I'm asking now in case this is something new LL might have been testing but might try to make as a Premium Plus option only, which I disagree with.

Knowing about this ability makes current parcel privacy behavior seem utterly incomplete and I think EVERYONE deserves better.

Here's a brief video of the behavior in action where I was crossing back and forth between a parcel with privacy active and a parcel without privacy active.

https://gyazo.com/043ec6a918fc32940f24bf31d0408ee8

Here's the feature request to make this standard behavior for everyone. If you're interested in following the discussion there, please click the "Start watching this issue".

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-227885

Please keep the comments here on topic. Thanks.

People lurking/squatting on my land or stalking/policing my tenants are people whose names I would like to have from the mini-map, thank you.

They're on my land, and that seems very basic.  I would err on the side of assuming people are decent, since most actually are, but if I see someone persistently hanging out, they often can be a squatter or stalker. I can at least IM them and say "Do you need any help in finding a rental?"

I don't want to maintain expensive, laggy surveillance scripts to determine these simple facts; the mini map should be sufficient.

If you feel your privacy as an avatar -- an avatar, that is, a creature with a fake name in a virtual world -- is not sufficient when you:

o have "avatars can seem me" turned OFF so that you are invisible on land

o have "access only" -- legal, if annoying to those around you who merely live nearby or fly by

o have a security orb -- legal, if annoying to those around you who merely live nearby or fly by

then...maybe you shouldn't log on to the Internet.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/20/2019 at 4:05 PM, steeljane42 said:

I'm around for 7 years, so while I didn't seen the days with 70-80k people online, I do remember the 60-62k ones. it was just about the same back then already and private regions vastly outnumbered mainland, even if count all regions that LL put up for sailing and other similar stuff, with zero residental areas (and again, if count those and abandoned mainland out, it's even bigger difference).

Besides who cares about how it was a decade ago to begin with? Those days are long gone, the times of prim building in world are long gone as well. The world, people and SL with it has changed a lot. You may like it or not, but that's how it is. Maybe back in the days SL was the social "community" for in-world building with prims, now it's very social circles and shopping oriented. Just about everyone I know who even cares to have own corner in SL has their own private one and wants to not be bothered outside of people those choose to interact with by themselves. There's no "community" as is a global SL thing, only smaller ones for various interests, be it building, scripting, RP or anything else.

In this sense SL reminds me a lot of RL, at least the "living in big city" type of RL. Sure, it might be different if you live in small rural area with a couple thousands people where everyone know each other, but in big city you see thousands if not tens of thousands of people daily and you have close to no interactions with any of them. You buy their products and services as well, also almost daily. And yet there's no global community whatsoever. And yes, people value their privacy very much and they take that into SL as well.

Sure. Except in real life, there are license plates on cars, and people have ID.

If someone loiters for hours or days in the lobby of my building, sooner or later security may call police and police may ask to check their ID.

Somebody on my lawn in real life will get the same treatment.

In real life, people have ID and authorities can request it if they have probably cause in a democratic society.

If it were possible to sit up in the sky for long periods above my house in RL, I'd like to be able to know who is doing that, and why.