Do you want better parcel privacy?

[Lucia Nightfire]

Figured I'd share an experience I had yesterday while hunting down a bug.

While in the region, Nautilus - Hannibal I noticed that parcel privacy was additionally not showing minimap icons for agents , nor were these agents shown in the People or Radar menus.

This behavior was the same while in an adjacent region looking in.

Agents are not hidden from scripts or the World Map, though.

This behavior was too specific to be a bug. It had to have been a hidden console parameter left on by a Linden or support.

The region was restarted today and this behavior is no longer present.

The question is, how many of you would want this functionality to be included with how parcel privacy works now?

I'm asking now in case this is something new LL might have been testing but might try to make as a Premium Plus option only, which I disagree with.

Knowing about this ability makes current parcel privacy behavior seem utterly incomplete and I think EVERYONE deserves better.

Here's a brief video of the behavior in action where I was crossing back and forth between a parcel with privacy active and a parcel without privacy active.

https://gyazo.com/043ec6a918fc32940f24bf31d0408ee8

Here's the feature request to make this standard behavior for everyone. If you're interested in following the discussion there, please click the "Start watching this issue".

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-227885

Please keep the comments here on topic. Thanks.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Lucia Nightfire

[Lindal Kidd]

Wow.

As someone who often needs to keep order in my home region or on the campus at Caledon Oxbridge University...and as someone who is just snoopy curious by nature, I would not like to see this implemented.

 

[Erwin Solo]

We need to know how many avatars are around so we can interpret Region-lag in context of avatar load.  I don't really care where on Region the avatars are, but I need to know how many.  Well, on my Region where I'm Estate Owner, I want to keep all the tools I've got, but I don't see any of those going away; LL has been making Estate tools better.

[Lucia Nightfire]

I was a "guest" on public access land when I was experiencing that behavior.

I am not aware if there are exclusions for land owners, estate owners, estate managers or group owners to still be able to see minimap icons, or presence in the People menu or Radar menu.

[Morena Tully]

yeah... I hope it was a bug only, because if someone is lurking right outside my parcel for a long time, I'd kinda like to know. If something like this is implemented, in any way shape or form, it'd creep me out.

[Lucia Nightfire]

26 minutes ago, Morena Tully said:

yeah... I hope it was a bug only, because if someone is lurking right outside my parcel for a long time, I'd kinda like to know. If something like this is implemented, in any way shape or form, it'd creep me out.

Again, I am not aware if there are exclusions for land owners, estate owners, estate managers or group owners to still be able to see minimap icons, or presence in the People menu or Radar menu.

[Zero Starchild]

This is all we need! More paranoia about who is looking at me as I dress to the nines in mesh to be seen!!! ;-) I don't need this extra crap, sorry!

[Lucia Nightfire]

10 minutes ago, Ziggy Starsmith said:

This is all we need! More paranoia about who is looking at me as I dress to the nines in mesh to be seen!!! 😉 I don't need this extra crap, sorry!

If you're wanting to be seen, you probably wouldn't be using parcel privacy, though.

[ArgontheDevil Ormega]

I would certainly use it if I were entertaining, so to speak.

[Alyona Su]

11 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Wow.

As someone who often needs to keep order in my home region or on the campus at Caledon Oxbridge University...and as someone who is just snoopy curious by nature, I would not like to see this implemented.

 

Ditto. That is all.

[Alyona Su]

8 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

If you're wanting to be seen, you probably wouldn't be using parcel privacy, though.

Parcel Privacy already hides you from being seen. This is about map-dots. There already is map-dot privacy; to hide your map-dot from being seen by anyone, logout.

[Lewis Luminos]

12 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Wow.

As someone who often needs to keep order in my home region or on the campus at Caledon Oxbridge University...and as someone who is just snoopy curious by nature, I would not like to see this implemented.

Agreed. I wouldn't want this at all.  Aside from having no need for this level of privacy, it would also make my job as an event host much harder if I couldn't see everyone on the People list. Presumably as owner of the club and the land it sits on, I'd be able to simply not implement it even if the option was there, but most hosts don't own the clubs they work at.

And it does sound more like a Linden "God-Mode" feature than a bug.

[ChinRey]

My initial reaction was actually positive. At first glacne it seems like a nice little feature to increase people's privacy without affecting others.

But we all know full well that any feature in SL that can be abused will be. I can think of two three ways this can be abused (no details, I don't want to give people unhealthy ideas) and there might well be others too. Any change in security and privacy in SL needs to be carefully considered because there are so many potential unintended consequences.

 

12 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

As someone who often needs to keep order in my home region or on the campus at Caledon Oxbridge University...and as someone who is just snoopy curious by nature, I would not like to see this implemented.

I take it for granted that a landowner and personel authorised by the landowner can override the function so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

12 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

We need to know how many avatars are around so we can interpret Region-lag in context of avatar load.

Yes, that too. The avatar count on the big map has to correct and include those "hidden avatars". Unfortunately, that's the key to tow of the ways the feature can be abused.

Edited November 18, 2019 by ChinRey

[Lindal Kidd]

Everyone (Yes, you, Chin, and Lucia) is putting up straw men.  You're saying, "but a landowner or authorized person could override the Hide On Map function".  We don't know that.  We don't even know if this is going to be an implemented feature at all!

What we DO know is what Lucia experienced and documented:  There was a region where privacy appeared to extend to the map as well as just avatar visibility.  No caveats, no overrides.  It is this observed behavior that I am saying that I don't like and would not like to see implemented.

Debate about anything else is pure speculation.

[Mollymews]

i would like to be able to set my parcel to hide me.  Anyone outside my parcel can't see me at all by any means. And I can't see them at all by any means.  The exception to this is an Estate Owner. But, when the Estate Owner (and/or Officer with this estate right) can see me by a method, overriding my hide method, then I can see them by the same method

is a parcel setting, not an independent avatar blocker

[Pussycat Catnap]

It may have been neither a new feature or a bug.

If I rez a green circle at the right height and size I can make it look like an avatar on the map...

It's a pretty old but not too common gimmick to do.

[Parhelion Palou]

8 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i would like to be able to set my parcel to hide me.  Anyone outside my parcel can't see me at all by any means. And I can't see them at all by any means.  The exception to this is an Estate Owner. But, when the Estate Owner (and/or Officer with this estate right) can see me by a method, overriding my hide method, then I can see them by the same method

is a parcel setting, not an independent avatar blocker

For what it's worth, an estate manager or region owner can't override the 'avatars can see ...' setting.

[Mollymews]

Just now, Parhelion Palou said:

For what it's worth, an estate manager or region owner can't override the 'avatars can see ...' setting.

i think that if there was to be a change to parcel privacy settings then this would also change. The rule could be: When you can see me then I can see you.  If it was me building this (which it isn't but if it was) then to ameliorate the quick peeper then I would provide a UI who-can-see-me list. People can use it or not as they like

like a lot of things in SL, if we don't have any use for a feature for ourselves then we just ignore it

[Lucia Nightfire]

5 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Everyone (Yes, you, Chin, and Lucia) is putting up straw men.  You're saying, "but a landowner or authorized person could override the Hide On Map function".  We don't know that.  We don't even know if this is going to be an implemented feature at all!

What we DO know is what Lucia experienced and documented:  There was a region where privacy appeared to extend to the map as well as just avatar visibility.  No caveats, no overrides.  It is this observed behavior that I am saying that I don't like and would not like to see implemented.

Debate about anything else is pure speculation.

In the event that this is a feature to come in some format(premium, premium plus), I felt it was a good idea to get discussion on it before hand, because LL is notorious for dropping changes on us after only involving their own internal discussion.

There is also a big to-do about keeping new features a secret until near release date or day1.

I think LL needs to ask for our input on a great many things before they even begin work on them.

The user groups is where this sometimes happens, but far too many things are kept secret when they really don't need to be.

[ChinRey]

48 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i would like to be able to set my parcel to hide me.  Anyone outside my parcel can't see me at all by any means. And I can't see them at all by any means.

That function already exists. But your name still shows up (grayed out) on the local chat list for nearby avatars and your name also shows up on the minimap. Unless I completely misunderstood Lucia, that's the difference.

 

6 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Everyone (Yes, you, Chin, and Lucia) is putting up straw men.  You're saying, "but a landowner or authorized person could override the Hide On Map function".  We don't know that.

Yes, we do actually. There is no way such a function will be mandatory for all parcels in SL and that means somebody will be able to switch it on or off and that somebody has to be the landowner or, for group owned land, group members who have the power to change parcel settings.

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

That function already exists. But your name still shows up (grayed out) on the local chat list for nearby avatars and your name also shows up on the minimap. Unless I completely misunderstood Lucia, that's the difference.

yes the conversation moved to, if there were to be changes then how might they work. No Minimap, no Nearby list and no script uuid for example

yes on your second point as well.  It would be a parcel setting. Estate owners would have control over whether these capabilities could be enabled for the region. 

[animats]

The map and minimap don't give away that much information.

There's an argument for "cannot cam into parcel" and "cannot sit while camming" parcel options. Those would make walls and doors mean something.

[Pussycat Catnap]

I get can into parcel, though I would vote against it; but why cannot sit? Not sure how that is supposed to work.

[animats]

11 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I get can into parcel, though I would vote against it; but why cannot sit? Not sure how that is supposed to work.

You can get into a building with a locked door in SL by camming into the room and sitting on something. This will move your avatar through the locked door.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, animats said:

You can get into a building with a locked door in SL by camming into the room and sitting on something. This will move your avatar through the locked door.

It can but in my experience at least people generally respect a locked door.

I've had rentals at Coniston and the the neighbor regions for more than six years now and I can only remember one occasion when somebody entered a locked house on the ground without permission. That wasn't even on purpose, just somebody (a forumite actually ) following an old, outdated landmark. I do install security orbs for tenants who want them but in the end very few ground dwellers do.

My skyboxes on the other hand, are constantly plagued with itnruders and nearly all of them need security orbs.

Then again, the whole Greater Coniston concept is very different from the rest of Second Life so my experiences may not be very representative for the grid as a whole.

Edited November 19, 2019 by ChinRey