Environmental Enhancement Project (aka EEP!) Feedback Thread

[NiranV Dean]

Screw this.

I'm sick of it, i'm trying get us a good and working feature here, offering feedback and a whole buglist, i'm testing this stuff in my free time for your own good so you end up with a broken mess. Instead you have nothing better to do than sabotage everything i do and shrug off these critical bugs as "not a problem" giving LL the impression what i fear is them thinking that this is release worthy and then i'm also getting smacked with the stupid Forum rules because i just can't be nice anymore to someone who is absolutely stretching my patience. All you do is come in here and give me contra simply to give some contra to what i'm saying. Nothing of what you are saying holds any reason, any proofs or shows how "fine" EEP is, instead you keep ignoring the endless growing list of bugs i keep documenting here over and over, i keep reasoning with you but you show nothing but ignorance to the topic at hand -> EEP is NOT okay the way it is. We deserve much better than this and i've been trying to get us exactly that with whatever help i can offer, be it just reporting bugs. Heck i basically offered redoing all their windlight windows, heck i goddamn did it while doing so just for the sake of it.

But that's it. I'm done. If you want EEP the way it is, fine. I'll not report back here any more, have it your way, i'll happily sit back and watch the *****storm unfold when EEP goes live like this. All the threads whining about performance, all the threads whining about shiny being broken, the threads whining that shadows look like ass now... oh i will enjoy watching the world burn.

[Chic Aeon]

I have kind of been avoiding EEP as much as possible and haven't been watching this thread, but two days ago when I went to set the lighting on my new sim I definitely saw an odd occurrence and wanted to note it here. Likely someone in 21 pages has mentioned but I am not going back to read the whole thread LOL -- things to do. 

 

I am using the not so new Firestorm ( Feb  9 2019 18:55:39 (64bit) (Firestorm-Releasex64) with Havok support)

 

I made a great looking sunny winter day Windlight(R) for the skies of the sim.  The lighting looked like THIS in my viewer.

 

But when I put that Windlight(R) setting into the land info, the scene became "hazy" as in some of the multipliers have changed settings on their own.

 

 

This is most obvious from the photos (which of course have been compressed a couple of times) if you look at the horizon line.  IF I switch from "Use Region Windlight" back to my original "strand blue sky" setting it looks like it should -- or rather as I would like it to.   I can't see anything I can do about this but I am assuming it has something to do with EEP being on the servers even though I am not using and EEP viewer.

 

So far I haven't heard a lot of applause for this feature and it seems like it is on the back burner again.  Personally I am hoping it stays there.  Meanwhile I will use my original lighting for myself and hopefully visitors will have a Windlight that they personally love. If not, this is OK, just not as I expected or wanted it to be. 

 

Know that some of you have been beyond frustrated with EEP (I see the first couple of lines of posts as I peruse).  I am a bit frustrated too

[Gabriele Graves]

50 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

Screw this.

I'm sick of it, i'm trying get us a good and working feature here, offering feedback and a whole buglist, i'm testing this stuff in my free time for your own good so you end up with a broken mess. Instead you have nothing better to do than sabotage everything i do and shrug off these critical bugs as "not a problem" giving LL the impression what i fear is them thinking that this is release worthy and then i'm also getting smacked with the stupid Forum rules because i just can't be nice anymore to someone who is absolutely stretching my patience. All you do is come in here and give me contra simply to give some contra to what i'm saying. Nothing of what you are saying holds any reason, any proofs or shows how "fine" EEP is, instead you keep ignoring the endless growing list of bugs i keep documenting here over and over, i keep reasoning with you but you show nothing but ignorance to the topic at hand -> EEP is NOT okay the way it is. We deserve much better than this and i've been trying to get us exactly that with whatever help i can offer, be it just reporting bugs. Heck i basically offered redoing all their windlight windows, heck i goddamn did it while doing so just for the sake of it.

But that's it. I'm done. If you want EEP the way it is, fine. I'll not report back here any more, have it your way, i'll happily sit back and watch the *****storm unfold when EEP goes live like this. All the threads whining about performance, all the threads whining about shiny being broken, the threads whining that shadows look like ass now... oh i will enjoy watching the world burn.

@NiranV Dean  I appreciate the feedback you are giving here.  I would prefer that this roll out only if and when the major issues are fixed and strongly agree that due to the way this affects the entire way we see inworld, it is critical that this is not going to go out severely messed up.  I cannot test the feature myself, and to be honest don't have the time or inclination either but do worry that my SL experience will suffer once this goes live.  So your reports and the reports of others are valuable to me and enable me to see how things are going with it.  Please do not stop posting just because someone cannot relate to or appreciate what you are trying to do.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Gabriele Graves

[Oz Linden]

On 8/10/2019 at 5:09 PM, Chic Aeon said:

I am using the not so new Firestorm ( Feb  9 2019 18:55:39 (64bit) (Firestorm-Releasex64) with Havok support)

Testing the appearance with any viewer other than the EEP RC viewer is not very meaningful, since only that viewer has the shader changes that accompany the new settings and capabilities.

We appreciate that the rendering in this overlap period before the TPVs all have the same rendering pipeline as our viewer is frustrating, and regret having gotten into this situation; we (specifically I) thought that this overlap period would be very short, but it hasn't worked out that way. My apologies.

We're working as hard as possible to get the EEP viewer into shape to promote to default, after which we expect that it will be quickly available in most TPVs.

[Chic Aeon]

13 minutes ago, Oz Linden said:

Testing the appearance with any viewer other than the EEP RC viewer is not very meaningful, since only that viewer has the shader changes that accompany the new settings and capabilities.

We appreciate that the rendering in this overlap period before the TPVs all have the same rendering pipeline as our viewer is frustrating, and regret having gotten into this situation; we (specifically I) thought that this overlap period would be very short, but it hasn't worked out that way. My apologies.

We're working as hard as possible to get the EEP viewer into shape to promote to default, after which we expect that it will be quickly available in most TPVs.

Thanks.  I just thought it a curiosity more than anything else. I know you guys have been working hard on EEP for (well ages) and I appreciate that, but it is going to take a lot to get me over to the EEP camp so I will be one of the last to make the change.   I didn't expect my sky to look the same with other viewers and I fully understand there is an EEP viewer to test with. I had it installed once.  I just thought that it was odd that "I", in my same viewer in the same exact location, saw things differently once I set the Windlight(R) in the land tab.  THAT I wasn't expecting.   

 

Since most folks are NOT using the EEP viewer now, I am not really all that worried about what it looks like for those folks :D.  Honestly I see enough two line beginning comments as this thread brief shows up to NOT want to go there until I have to.   That is NOT a reflection on your dedication. 

Again, I do appreciate all your work -- and that of the rest of the team.  

[jillgoodgal]

I am confused about how the now not so new Shared Environment is supposed to work on the Linden Viewer.  I had it on my two computers with Linden Viewers, but found out others cannot access the 'Use Shared Environment', only have 'Use Region Settings'.  Then, when I had to reinstall on one computer, this Linden viewer just downloaded has only the 'Use Region Environment' choice, and I do not see how to change to allow use of shared environment?

On my parcel, I have already put in the multiple altitude settings and changed the day/night cycle using the Environment controls on About Land (which of course now cannot be accessed on the computer I just reinstalled the Linden Viewer).  So, my main question is, how to get the Linden Viewer which has the 'Use Shared Environment capability (since I have no idea how I got it in the first place, it just appeared!).

[Coby Foden]

EEP is not available yet in all viewers. It's only available in special EEP viewer. What has happened to you is that when you reinstalled you have installed the standard LL viewer instead of EEP viewer.

You can get the EEP viewer from here:
https://releasenotes.secondlife.com/viewer.html
 

[jillgoodgal]

Yes I found that, thank you.  And now I know how to share it for others, but it seems a bit convoluted to have to go through all those steps just to see the nice lighting.  Why not put it on the standard Linden viewer?

So, I take it that I got the EEP viewer as an update because I was a parcel owner?

[OptimoMaximo]

4 hours ago, jillgoodgal said:

Yes I found that, thank you.  And now I know how to share it for others, but it seems a bit convoluted to have to go through all those steps just to see the nice lighting.  Why not put it on the standard Linden viewer?

So, I take it that I got the EEP viewer as an update because I was a parcel owner?

/me facepalms

Edited August 17, 2019 by OptimoMaximo

[Penny Patton]

On 8/17/2019 at 10:05 AM, jillgoodgal said:

And now I know how to share it for others, but it seems a bit convoluted to have to go through all those steps just to see the nice lighting.  Why not put it on the standard Linden viewer?

Because the feature is still being developed and is not yet in a state where it's ready to roll out for everyone.  It would make no sense to put it in the standard Linden viewer at this time.

When the feature is finished you can be sure it will be included in the standard viewer.

[Oz Linden]

On 8/17/2019 at 10:05 AM, jillgoodgal said:

So, I take it that I got the EEP viewer as an update because I was a parcel owner?

Nope, just dumb luck.

When we have a viewer in a nearly-releasable state (in this case, that turned out to be a little optimistic), the last phase of the release process is to offer it as an upgrade to a cohort of randomly selected users. Second Life is so large and complex that it's just not possible for us to test as much as giving to real users will. Normally, once you're on a Release Candidate like this, you'll keep getting those updates, but by manually downloading the default release you removed yourself from the test.

For details, see http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Integration_and_Release_Processes#Release_Candidate

[Cube Republic]

Is the newest release kind of dark? I'm thinking it is. 

[Lucia Nightfire]

4 hours ago, Cube Republic said:

Is the newest release kind of dark? I'm thinking it is. 

Ever since the first release, every EEP viewer has been dark to me.

[Morena Tully]

sigh.. it was good for a while, but now I see I have to once again try to repair the light on my region. Sun backwards, no haze, strange water. Everything looks awful again.

Edit: I can't even fix it this time, it's so broken. If it's going to stay like this, I'm letting my sim go. As it is, I'm locking it from public access now, it's embarrassing.

region lighting on EEP viewer: https://gyazo.com/0d7aa5db925614ff45e7a40c13a84aba  (too dark)

exact same region light on firestorm: https://gyazo.com/2a0026c1655bd384b60e2cb29123d03d (bleached out)

Edited August 23, 2019 by Morena Tully

[Coby Foden]

@Oz Linden @Rider Linden @Vir Linden
Using EEP viewer: Second Life Release 6.4.0.530150 (64bit)

The default region lighting is definitely far too dark. I checked this in two different regions. Same thing in both - default region lighting is too dark.

 

[Penny Patton]

@Rider Linden @Oz Linden I wanted to point out something else about the lack of stars in EEP. Beyond not being able to make a proper rural night sky, Second Life is a virtual world. It would be great if we could push it beyond the realistic. Like being able to make the largest stars in the sky even larger and brighter than you would see even in the most remote setting. I mean, why not go crazy with it? Letting people make a night sky that looks like you're standing on a planet in the middle of the Pleiades or something. Just with the star settings. That would be amazing.

 

[jillgoodgal]

I like this bright stars idea--if implemented just be sure the default setting is very low on the scale.

Agree with above comments, the latest changes messed up shadows again and made too dark.  Light sources properly light the avis, but in shadows the shirt and pants/skirt; have different lighting and so appear the wrong colors.  The previous EEP was really looking very good to me.

[Penny Patton]

41 minutes ago, jillgoodgal said:

I like this bright stars idea--if implemented just be sure the default setting is very low on the scale.

That reminds me, given the new way skies will work across the mainland it's possible LL will want to come up with multiple defaults for different types of regions. They could give the snow sims snowy, cloud filled skies, and different types of day cycles for other themed regions for example.

[Oz Linden]

15 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

Beyond not being able to make a proper rural night sky, Second Life is a virtual world. It would be great if we could push it beyond the realistic. Like being able to make the largest stars in the sky even larger and brighter than you would see even in the most remote setting. I mean, why not go crazy with it? Letting people make a night sky that looks like you're standing on a planet in the middle of the Pleiades or something. Just with the star settings. That would be amazing.

Customized stars was considered, and didn't make the cut this time around. It's still on my personal watch list, so maybe next time.

[Penny Patton]

1 hour ago, Oz Linden said:

Customized stars was considered, and didn't make the cut this time around. It's still on my personal watch list, so maybe next time.

I've got my fingers crossed.

But, in the meantime, I do hope you guys are at least intending to fix it so we can have more and brighter stars. I live in a city now and still see more stars in the sky out my window than I can in EEP.

[Penny Patton]

Update from this morning's meeting (which I fell asleep almost immediately after so forgive a bit of fogginess on the details).

Custom stars and other neat features LL does not have time to get into EEP may be a part of a second phase of improvements in the future. Increasing the brightness and number of stars would also be a part of these post-EEP improvements, but there is no roadmap for any of this. It's all "Maybe, in the future, possibly." right now. But Oz repeated that he's big on the custom stars thing and that increasing the brightness/number of stars should be trivial. Rider also mentioned that the way they have the assets set up will make it easy to do future improvements. So there's hope yet.

It sounds like EEP is inching closer to release as they make progress squashing bugs, but they didn't want to offer any definitive timeline. The big takeaway is that they're not just going to rush it out as-is, which I think most of us would agree is a good thing. Rider encouraged people to post any bugs they find to the Jira. If it's not on the Jira then they're likely not going to know it's something that needs fixing

[Henri Beauchamp]

On 8/12/2019 at 8:52 PM, Oz Linden said:

We're working as hard as possible to get the EEP viewer into shape to promote to default, after which we expect that it will be quickly available in most TPVs.

I can speak only for myself and the Cool VL Viewer, but while I already backported the environment settings editing/importing/creating stuff (UI (fully reworked), inventory, etc) in the experimental branch of my viewer (v1.26.23), I for now refrained from backporting the rendering part. Why ?  Because it is obviously a moving target with lots of breakages still to be repaired, and with abyssal performances.

At this point, I am not even sure I will actually adopt EEP rendering for my viewer, the reasons being:

1. This is not something I need. To tell you the truth, I don't even use ALM (it looks too blurry and gloomy for my taste) and I keep my viewer locked in ”midday” with default Windlight settings (because well, I don't care much about the photo-realistic aspect of SL: for me SL is just a platform to role-play, and imagination is the key factor in RPs, not things that would be imposed on me such as the day length, that obviously cannot follow/match the variable rhythm of a RP).
2. If it means that I must give-up performances for a feature I never asked for and that I cannot disable to regain the original performances, then screw it !

For now, I am considering three options:

1. Not implementing EEP rendering at all, but making it so that EEP settings are ”translated” and rendered as their Windlight counterparts.
2. Keeping the Windlight renderer and implementing the EEP one along it, allowing to switch back and forth between them (thus letting the final user the choice between ”prettiness” and performances).
3. Waiting (weeks, months, who knows ?) after EEP makes it to LL's viewer and see what happens (will performances increase over time to match the Windlight renderer's ?).

Now, I think that things could be improved a lot, performances-wise, if you could consider the following suggestions of mine:

1. Do we really need to recalculate the environment parameters at *every frame* ?... 5 updates a second sounds like more than sufficient to me (this could even be made user-configurable, because to tell you the truth, one update per minute would be acceptable for my use of SL), and cached parameters could be used for all the other frames in between two updates.
2. Won't it be smarter to delegate environment calculations to a separate thread ?... Once the above caching implemented, it would be trivial to sync the results once per frame between the environment calculation thread and the viewer rendering (and main) thread. With today's multi/many cores CPU, we do need to use more threads !!!

These were my two cents about EEP...

[Chic Aeon]

43 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Keeping the Windlight renderer and implementing the EEP one along it, allowing to switch back and forth between them (thus letting the final user the choice between ”prettiness” and performances).

Not from a technical standpoint but just as a  user and Windlight (R) lover, I have been saying this for many, many months. I am sure there must be SOMEONE on this long thread that likes EEP but I think the masses have clearly spoken. Even if the Lindens embrace the new system, the populous as a whole is not as excited.  IF EEP ever goes standard, one or more of the third party viewers will likely make a workaround for the many thousands of folks who want to ignore it.   That logic has been very clear (at least to me)  for a VERY long time. 

 

From my point of view -- EVEN if EEP gave us BETTER performance, I would opt for Windlight.    So I sincerely hope that everyone's favorite viewer (including the Linden) viewer gives us a CHOICE.   

 

 

[NiranV Dean]

7 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

I can speak only for myself and the Cool VL Viewer, but while I already backported the environment settings editing/importing/creating stuff (UI (fully reworked), inventory, etc) in the experimental branch of my viewer (v1.26.23), I for now refrained from backporting the rendering part. Why ?  Because it is obviously a moving target with lots of breakages still to be repaired, and with abyssal performances.

At this point, I am not even sure I will actually adopt EEP rendering for my viewer, the reasons being:

1. This is not something I need. To tell you the truth, I don't even use ALM (it looks too blurry and gloomy for my taste) and I keep my viewer locked in ”midday” with default Windlight settings (because well, I don't care much about the photo-realistic aspect of SL: for me SL is just a platform to role-play, and imagination is the key factor in RPs, not things that would be imposed on me such as the day length, that obviously cannot follow/match the variable rhythm of a RP).
2. If it means that I must give-up performances for a feature I never asked for and that I cannot disable to regain the original performances, then screw it !

For now, I am considering three options:

1. Not implementing EEP rendering at all, but making it so that EEP settings are ”translated” and rendered as their Windlight counterparts.
2. Keeping the Windlight renderer and implementing the EEP one along it, allowing to switch back and forth between them (thus letting the final user the choice between ”prettiness” and performances).
3. Waiting (weeks, months, who knows ?) after EEP makes it to LL's viewer and see what happens (will performances increase over time to match the Windlight renderer's ?).

Now, I think that things could be improved a lot, performances-wise, if you could consider the following suggestions of mine:

1. Do we really need to recalculate the environment parameters at *every frame* ?... 5 updates a second sounds like more than sufficient to me (this could even be made user-configurable, because to tell you the truth, one update per minute would be acceptable for my use of SL), and cached parameters could be used for all the other frames in between two updates.
2. Won't it be smarter to delegate environment calculations to a separate thread ?... Once the above caching implemented, it would be trivial to sync the results once per frame between the environment calculation thread and the viewer rendering (and main) thread. With today's multi/many cores CPU, we do need to use more threads !!!

These were my two cents about EEP...

My god, Henri thank you. THANK YOU.

I was actually thinking of implementing everything EEP offers without the rendering part too (some of them like the changable moon/sun textures should be easily implementable without breaking everything else).

[Penny Patton]

On 9/2/2019 at 5:59 AM, Chic Aeon said:

Not from a technical standpoint but just as a  user and Windlight (R) lover, I have been saying this for many, many months. I am sure there must be SOMEONE on this long thread that likes EEP but I think the masses have clearly spoken. Even if the Lindens embrace the new system, the populous as a whole is not as excited.  IF EEP ever goes standard, one or more of the third party viewers will likely make a workaround for the many thousands of folks who want to ignore it.   That logic has been very clear (at least to me)  for a VERY long time. 

 

From my point of view -- EVEN if EEP gave us BETTER performance, I would opt for Windlight.    So I sincerely hope that everyone's favorite viewer (including the Linden) viewer gives us a CHOICE.   

 

 

I'm not sure this is a fair assessment. It assumes nothing will, or perhaps even can, be fixed as far as EEP's remaining bugs and issues. I'm still pretty excited for EEP, assuming those remaining issues do get fixed. Customizeable sun/moon, skies as inventory, parcel windlight settings that don't rely on your visitors already having a viewer with pre-installed sky settings. These are all things I expect the userbase will eagerly embrace.

 We should, of course, all remain critical of EEP, keeping the pressure on LL to fix what needs fixing, but it's premature to be outright dismissive of it.