Environmental Enhancement Project (aka EEP!) Feedback Thread

[Oz Linden]

On 5/31/2020 at 5:34 AM, MarissaOrloff said:

Is there anyway to disable EEP and go back to the way it was? EEP has a huge impact on FPS.

No. Maintaining two completely different possibilities for environments would be confusing, inconsistent, a maintenance and a QA nightmare.

You may find that some settings important for performance have been reset by your update; I suggest reviewing them.

[Whirly Fizzle]

On 5/31/2020 at 10:34 AM, MarissaOrloff said:

Is there anyway to disable EEP and go back to the way it was? EEP has a huge impact on FPS.

 

2 hours ago, Oz Linden said:

You may find that some settings important for performance have been reset by your update; I suggest reviewing them.

There is a known performance problem with EEP viewers.

JIRA issues:
BUG-226381 - [EEP] Low FPS on the Test DRTVWR-440 EEP project viewer
This was fixed then regressed so many times that I lost count - no idea if it's still open internally but it isn't fixed.

BUG-228821 - Occasional Freeze in Post-EEP Viewers

[KT Kingsley]

34 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

This was fixed then regressed so many times that I lost count - no idea if it's still open internally but it isn't fixed.

Please forgive this digression, but I have to ask how do regressions happen?

Is it that the old buggy code accidentally gets pulled back into the build at the expense of the fixed code? Or does some completely new code somehow set up a chain of events that triggers the bug in a new and unexpected way?

[Mazidox Linden]

30 minutes ago, KT Kingsley said:

Please forgive this digression, but I have to ask how do regressions happen?

Is it that the old buggy code accidentally gets pulled back into the build at the expense of the fixed code? Or does some completely new code somehow set up a chain of events that triggers the bug in a new and unexpected way?

The answer to that question is "both" and "it depends". Sometimes it's a problem with using an older base version of code to start a project and trampling over fixes that were made in the mean time, other times it's more like the domino effect you describe. I've certainly seen both types of regressions, though I'd be hard pressed to say which is more common.

(None of this is EEP specific, I'm just speaking from experience testing various kinds of server changes.)

[Henri Beauchamp]

On 5/31/2020 at 11:34 AM, MarissaOrloff said:

Is there anyway to disable EEP and go back to the way it was? EEP has a huge impact on FPS.

You can try the Cool VL Viewer v1.27.0 (experimental version/branch), which implements a dual renderer (Windlight and EE, switchable on the flight), beyond also providing EE settings to Windlight real-time translation (which also works and has been working for months in the v1.26 stable version), when using the Windlight renderer...

[arabellajones]

On 6/1/2020 at 3:26 PM, Oz Linden said:

No. Maintaining two completely different possibilities for environments would be confusing, inconsistent, a maintenance and a QA nightmare.

You may find that some settings important for performance have been reset by your update; I suggest reviewing them.

I got v6.4.2 working, and some of the defaults are sub-optimal, had to change them.

v6.3.4 appears, I install it, and the settings go back to the defaults.

I am not pleased by this.

I can see how there could be a lot of reasons for EEP, including the moves away from OpenGL as a graphics API. But right now, it's you who look like part of the problem.

[Oz Linden]

45 minutes ago, arabellajones said:

I got v6.4.2 working, and some of the defaults are sub-optimal, had to change them.

v6.3.4 appears, I install it, and the settings go back to the defaults.

I am not pleased by this.

Sorry ... I'm going to assume that you actually meant '6.4.3' above, not '6.3.4', but since you didn't include the 4th number I can't actually tell what builds you had (the first 3 are not unique).
Our viewer doesn't (deliberately) revert any of your settings on an update. One way that can happen is if something (including potentially a crash) corrupts your personal settings file.

[arabellajones]

Yeah, goofed on the number.

As far as I can tell, the 6.4.2 and 6.4.3 numbers are unique for normal viewer releases. And I am not inclined to install a release candidate or project viewer because of the (necessary) mandatory update element that applies.

The only reason I am even trying to use the LL Viewer is because I am trying to figure out what EEP does so I can get usable results with the content I make. The default UI sucks.

[JayNathan]

Testing here,  my new clouds (No EEP)

[Dan Linden]

Just a heads-up for those that are making EEP clouds, the cloud textures are currently rendered backwards - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-228840. This will be fixed in an upcoming release.

[JayNathan]

 

35 minutes ago, Dan Linden said:

Solo un aviso para aquellos que están haciendo nubes EEP, las texturas de las nubes actualmente se muestran al revés: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-228840 . Esto se solucionará en un próximo lanzamiento.

Ok thankss Dan , I would love to be able to talk privately with you, and present some ideas. I wish so much that the EEP project can offer us many more things.

I have been making windlights for more than 5 years and creating clouds and stars for 2 years via inworld, I have been trying to manage the EEP, but I miss some options especially for a better softness in tones and a specific option for light reflections in skins of the avatars.

All my respects to your team, I hope EEP will evolve.

Jay.

[MarissaOrloff]

On 6/1/2020 at 1:06 PM, Whirly Fizzle said:

 

There is a known performance problem with EEP viewers.

JIRA issues:
BUG-226381 - [EEP] Low FPS on the Test DRTVWR-440 EEP project viewer
This was fixed then regressed so many times that I lost count - no idea if it's still open internally but it isn't fixed.

BUG-228821 - Occasional Freeze in Post-EEP Viewers

I'm following the FS dev branch. So, i'll do what they say in the Army. Hurry up and wait!

I will try out the official SL viewer to take a look next time I'm in Windows or Mac though.

[MarissaOrloff]

On 5/31/2020 at 8:22 AM, Chic Aeon said:

For now you could use a viewer that doesn't have EEP.  The newest Firestorm (a couple of days ago) still doesn't have EEP. So that viewer will be "good" and will be able to access the grid for most likely a year.  There are some third party viewers that don't plan on adding EEP ever and also don't have the rule about keeping the viewer version fairly recent. 

 

 I was hoping from the beginning that someone would make EEP optional as you suggest -- mostly because so many folks testing it hated it LOL.   That could still happen maybe.   

I'm following the FS dev channel which does have it and my OCD won't allow me to use a regular release, only the ones I build myself!   When I feel I'm too bogged down I go back to an older version I made.

[Henri Beauchamp]

On 5/31/2020 at 2:22 PM, Chic Aeon said:

I was hoping from the beginning that someone would make EEP optional as you suggest -- mostly because so many folks testing it hated it LOL.   That could still happen maybe.   

This already happened with the Cool VL Viewer v1.27.0 (just like I more or less announced in this forum months ago), and yes, Extended/Enhanced Environment rendering will stay totally optional in the Cool VL Viewer future releases.

I am currently working on making the EE renderer compatible with Windlight settings (the other way around, i.e. using (a subset of) EE settings with the Windlight renderer, already worked for months in the Cool VL Viewer). Once this will be done, v1.27.0 (experimental branch) will be promoted as v1.28.0 (stable branch).

Edited June 15, 2020 by Henri Beauchamp

[Chic Aeon]

4 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

This already happened with the Cool VL Viewer v1.27.0 (just like I more or less announced in this forum months ago), and yes, Extended/Enhanced Environment rendering will stay totally optional in the Cool VL Viewer future releases.

I am currently working on making the EE renderer compatible with Windlight settings (the other way around, i.e. using (a subset of) EE settings with the Windlight renderer, already worked for months in the Cool VL Viewer). Once this will be done, v1.27.0 (experimental branch) will be promoted as v1.28.0 (stable branch).

Yes, knew that.  But it will take an AWFUL LOT for me to switch from Firestorm :D.  But congrats for giving folks a choice. 

[Marianne Little]

On 6/15/2020 at 5:12 PM, Henri Beauchamp said:

This already happened with the Cool VL Viewer v1.27.0 (just like I more or less announced in this forum months ago), and yes, Extended/Enhanced Environment rendering will stay totally optional in the Cool VL Viewer future releases.

I am currently working on making the EE renderer compatible with Windlight settings (the other way around, i.e. using (a subset of) EE settings with the Windlight renderer, already worked for months in the Cool VL Viewer). Once this will be done, v1.27.0 (experimental branch) will be promoted as v1.28.0 (stable branch).

I have not tried Cool, since I am a hard addicted Firestorm user and will wait for it. But I really appreciate how fast you work, and that you offer EEP as optional. Well done.

/me takes another sip of coffee, and waits for Firestorm.

[Henri Beauchamp]

4 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

/me takes another sip of coffee, and waits for Firestorm.

:just smirks...

Note the ”:” instead of ”/me ” (i.e. easier/faster MU*-like emoting), which was my very first patch to the Linden code base, back in the ”Cool SL Viewer” days... The whole spirit of my viewer is behind this very first patch (that every TPV adopted since): faster, easier, lighter... and still full-featured. 😜

[arabellajones]

It looks pretty obvious to me that the SL17B landscape has been designed and built using EEP viewers, because it shows that specularity bug ( BUG-228781 and BUG-228581 ), it's set to look right, and on a non-EEP viewer, such as Firestorm, things are horribly dark.

As a creator, I take some care over material settings to get things looking good, and I am not feeling happy about the current situation.

Nice trees, though. The Moles have had a lot of practice with trees, haven't they.

[Marianne Little]

On 6/20/2020 at 2:16 PM, Henri Beauchamp said:

:just smirks...

Note the ”:” instead of ”/me ” (i.e. easier/faster MU*-like emoting), which was my very first patch to the Linden code base, back in the ”Cool SL Viewer” days... The whole spirit of my viewer is behind this very first patch (that every TPV adopted since): faster, easier, lighter... and still full-featured. 😜

Second Life is my first and only "game"... I'm old. I know nothing of other worlds.

 

[Henri Beauchamp]

6 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Second Life is my first and only ”game”... I'm old. I know nothing of other worlds.

I'm older !... MUDs, MUCKs, MUSHes, MUXes, existed waaaaay before SL emerged as a vague concept in Philip Rosedale's mind (I suspect he got inspired by Furcadia)... I started RPing online on FurryMUCK, back in the early 90's...

[Stevie Davros]

Hi all, I have been playing with EEP in the current standard SL viewer, starting with one of the TOR settings. I have ben trying one of my cloud textures I made for Windlight imported as 2048x2048 TGA. I can get some modicum of success with it but nowhere near the control over the look and feel of the sky compared to the old way things worked.  The sun no longer seems to interact as well with the clouds, the cloud textures no longer seem to have internal shadowing when they are made denser, or colour changes affected by the sun - especially when the sun is low to the horizon. Maybe it is just the way I am setting the sliders. The cloud texture appears to be fixed and only modulates in appearance. What is the point of making seamless tileable textures for clouds (which I can assure you is not that easy) if they remain fixed and cannot scroll across the sky?  It just does not look anywhere near as realistic, and that has been my aim with my current sky presets and cloud textures.

See a whole bunch of my Windlight skies to see what I was previously achieving here:
Flickr Album
and a lot more here:
Flickr Album Collection - Second Life Skies

Screen capture made this morning of EEP cloud settings with one of my textures.

 

[Whirly Fizzle]

@Stevie Davros

I would file a LL JIRA issue explaining the problem in as much details as you can & include images showing the effect you could achieve in pre-EEP viewers andimages showing what the problem is in EEP viewers.

https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/CreateIssue!default.jspa

Edited June 25, 2020 by Whirly Fizzle

[Stevie Davros]

Thanks, I have raised my issues. Please have a look and see if it makes sense to you. Thanks.

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-228981

[JayNathan]

On 24/6/2020 at 5:39, Stevie Davros said:

Hola a todos, he estado jugando con EEP en el visor SL estándar actual, comenzando con una de las configuraciones de TOR. He probado una de mis texturas en la nube que hice para Windlight importada como 2048x2048 TGA. Puedo obtener un poco de éxito con él, pero ni mucho menos el control sobre la apariencia del cielo en comparación con la forma en que funcionaban las cosas. El sol ya no parece interactuar tan bien con las nubes, las texturas de las nubes ya no parecen tener sombras internas cuando se hacen más densas o los cambios de color se ven afectados por el sol, especialmente cuando el sol está cerca del horizonte. Tal vez es solo la forma en que estoy configurando los controles deslizantes. La textura de la nube parece ser fija y solo se modula en apariencia. ¿Cuál es el punto de hacer texturas enlosables sin fisuras para las nubes (que puedo asegurar que no es tan fácil) si permanecen fijas y no pueden desplazarse por el cielo? Simplemente no parece tan realista, y ese ha sido mi objetivo con mis actuales presets de cielo y texturas de nubes.

Vea un montón de mis cielos de Windlight para ver lo que estaba logrando anteriormente aquí:
Flickr Album
y mucho más aquí:
Flickr Album Collection - Second Life Skies

La captura de pantalla hizo esta mañana la configuración de la nube EEP con una de mis texturas.

 

 I am with you 100% Stevie, EEP is not really exploiting everything we could do, especially for clouds and stars designers like us, It's very frustrating

[NiranV Dean]

I don't think "going back" to old Windlight is a solution nor is offering EEP as "optional" extra feature.

The Enhanced Environment Project as its name suggests was obviously planned as an enhancement to the systems already in place (Windlight) thus its goal was being an addon to what we already have. The problem with EEP (aside from its many rendering issues and crap UI, i'll get to that later) is that at some point in development it was apparently decided that EEP should no longer be an addition to Windlight but rather a complete replacement. This starts with the complete overhaul of everything rendering related that really wasn't necessary to touch at all, at least not for the scope of simply adding an enhanced set of features and ends with the absolute bad implementation of how EEP works and replaces the previous workflow when using Windlight.

I don't believe that running 2 different versions of the Windlight rendering is the solution or even a viable workaround, its simply a bad band aid fix for the real issues here. Bringing back Windlight is not a solution either, we want to go forward, not backwards and ultimately we want to end up with something that is not exactly the same as we already had but something that is more, otherwise the entire project was unnecessary in the first place.

EEP needs to have a clear goal and that goal shouldn't be a total replacement of the previous system, it should be an enhancement to the already existing systems and as such EEP has completely failed in its current iteration... which doesn't mean this cannot be fixed.

The current major issues i see with EEP right now:

• The total preset replacement with inventory based assets, rather than adding inventory assets as additional way of saving and sharing presets easier
• The giant screen real estate wasting UI that was unnecessarily completely rewritten to be unnecessarily more complex both for the user and for the developers who have to work with it.
• The (still) many glaring rendering issues, mainly the now much dimmer and quickly "capping" sun light intensity (notice how at around ~40-50% the sunlit sides don't get any brighter)
• The absence of an easy method of choosing your presets without going through your inventory or a mini inventory, a simple dropdown like we had before (don't tell me its not possible i goddamn implemented one, it even includes the inventory items)

Several of these issues i've tried addressing in my own Viewer without going with the apparently cheap trend of simply "going back" like its often done.

• I've re-added the local presets in all their glory, the Viewer can load both pre-EEP and EEP (newly saved) presets given they don't have invalid names (characters) and in that case you can still use the nuclear option and "import" them or simply go into the folder and rename them.
• The UI was the first thing to change and i've tried using the old windlight editors as template while adding the new options and only minimally changing their layout to make space for the many new options. I've also used this chance to clean it up a bit and add changes that should have been there from the beginning. (getting rid of this absolutely retarded and un-precise sun angle/time system)

• Further to the UI i also readded the Environment Editor (as revised version to use less space, another thing i should have done a while ago already) to allow easily and quickly selecting all your presets, new and old ones, inventory and local just like we did before and all this without having to go through yet another stupid inventory window.

I really don't see why this wasn't implemented in a similar fashion, everything could have stayed exactly like it was, nothing would have needed such a radical change. This leaves the last issues and those are probably the biggest, the rendering issues, namely the completely altered shininess on many items and the now weirdly capped sun brightness which in turn brings a whole host of new issues with it. These are however beyond my capabilities and i have to trust that LL is going to fix this as they get reported.

Still i'm incredibly pissed at EEP, it broke so many things and caused so much additional work that really wasn't necessary if LL had just listened to those that didn't just pat their back on the job well done, ignoring all the issues that apparently caused EEP to be delayed for months once a certain person (me) told you how majorly broken EEP was at the time. What i found even worse is that i was told that "i should have worked earlier and more actively with LL" as if you could just pass this down to being my fault just because i didn't show any interest in EEP until it was in a state i could actually get a proper opinion on its state. I shouldn't be the one following you where ever you go, watching your every move, you should be the one coming to us TPV devs and ask us to get involved and not with a generic mass mail that invites everyone to "try out" EEP. If you want proper feedback you should actively seek out to contact us and work with us not the other way around, especially since we most often are just in for the ride and don't get to say s*** anyway.

I'm getting bombarded daily by users freaking out that their presets they have been making for so long are gone until i can calm them and tell them that they are not gone and can still be used just like before just because you thought herpaderp corruptible inventory assets are the future lets dump local presets. It's incredibly frustrating to have to fix your failures once again.

And don't even tell me you contacted us developers because i see no evidence of just that, because if you really got in touch with us how come that no one, absolutely no one seemed to have pointed out all the extremely obvious flaws i still wonder. How come @Whirly Fizzle came to me (that only ever happens when the stars align) and asked me, no plead me almost to look at EEP well knowing i'd go on a super rant. Whirly asking me to look into something and basically go ranting about it is like a desperate cry for help, for that to happen you had to really mess things up and boy it took me only half an hour, most of it writing down and documenting all the bugs to find so many bugs that Whirly made your Jira explode. Only the rendering part of my complains have been mostly fixed, where are my concerns about the preset handling, the UI, all the rest? Did you listen? No! Of course not, "it was too late". You sure know how to keep me red hot glowing.

*stomps in circles*