Environmental Enhancement Project (aka EEP!) Feedback Thread

[Ethan Evergreen]

It seems the default settings from before EEP are not the same as the default settings from the post EEP implementation. How does one get back the exact look of the default lighting settings as they were before EEP? The colours are not the same and seem to be washed out now. Also the interface is totally blootered now. 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

On 4/28/2020 at 3:35 AM, Ethan Westland said:

It seems the default settings from before EEP are not the same as the default settings from the post EEP implementation. How does one get back the exact look of the default lighting settings as they were before EEP? The colours are not the same and seem to be washed out now. Also the interface is totally blootered now. 

You do know it's a different system right?

Just because there is an import function doesn't imply identical results.

[Beev Fallen]

EEP viewer makes speculars much brighter with local light sources, while keeping around the same specular brightness with the sun. That means you will need to re-tweak your asset for indoor / outdoor use. How about tweaking your avatar speculars every time you walk outside the club, then walk back inside the club?

Here is the same asset with the same specular values, lit with just sun, and lit with a single projector while being in the shadow. WL preset used is 'Midday'. You can clearly see now the huge 'gap' in specular behaviour with indoor / outdoor scenarios with EEP viewer.

Pre-EEP https://i.imgur.com/foXyHgb.jpg
EEP https://i.imgur.com/7AdLZly.jpg

Asset & light source properties https://imgur.com/a/v8Zz6OI

[Kyrah Abattoir]

It kinda make sense for the sun to be a more diffuse light source than a spotlight sitting right next to you.

Just tone down interior lighting if it's too strong.

[Beev Fallen]

1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

It kinda make sense for the sun to be a more diffuse light source than a spotlight sitting right next to you.

Can't agree to that. Bright sun and bright lamp in a dark room should produce similiar specular reflection on an object. For diffuse lighting we have "Ambient" parameter of WL/EEP. Anyway, with the new EEP way of rendering speculars it is impossible to manage reasonable specular parameters for both indoor / outdoor use. You tweak item specular to look 'pretty' for outdoor with the sun, then you bring item indoor into the light sources scenario - it is shiny as hell. You re-tweak item's specular for indoor to look 'pretty', then you put it outside - it has no visible speculars (not 'pretty' anymore). Repeat.

[arton Rotaru]

I agree that spec reflections from local lights are more intense than pre-EEP. However, the reflections from the sun are still way too low in EEP. It's easy to test with a simple cube. Be it midday, or sunset etc..

Not that it's reasonable to redo every object anyway, It's rather impossible to get reasonable results for sun and local lights now.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

I think the biggest issue with the changes to the specularity in EEP is actually with mesh bodies that use a specular map to give the skin a subtle sheen (not the "freshly oiled" look that some folks favor, I'm talking about a much more subtle effect) The other day I was hanging out with a friend who wears what was a rather beautiful dark skin with a very well-done subtle sheen, pre-EEP. In any EEP-enabled viewer she looks like she was cast in bronze.  It's very noticeable on many, many avatars.

[NiranV Dean]

46 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

I think the biggest issue with the changes to the specularity in EEP is actually with mesh bodies that use a specular map to give the skin a subtle sheen (not the "freshly oiled" look that some folks favor, I'm talking about a much more subtle effect) The other day I was hanging out with a friend who wears what was a rather beautiful dark skin with a very well-done subtle sheen, pre-EEP. In any EEP-enabled viewer she looks like she was cast in bronze.  It's very noticeable on many, many avatars.

That's because most if not all specular maps need to be redone on texture level.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

1 hour ago, NiranV Dean said:

That's because most if not all specular maps need to be redone on texture level.

Indeed. I just finished a build that had specular maps involved and I switched to an EEP viewer midway through it and had to adjust not just the specular maps but the glossiness maps in the normals alpha channel too, knowing that EEP would hit the official viewer about the time I finished it. However, the fact that all those skins/bodies will need their map redoing is going to be an issue - there's a LOT of them out there and it's a pretty sure bet that some of their makers are not going to update what's already out there. In its own way this level of "breaking existing content" is up there with what happened with all the stuff using invisiprims when deferred rendering hit the grid, if not more significant because deferred rendering started as, and still is (for now), an option - but EEP is core code.

[NiranV Dean]

7 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Indeed. I just finished a build that had specular maps involved and I switched to an EEP viewer midway through it and had to adjust not just the specular maps but the glossiness maps in the normals alpha channel too, knowing that EEP would hit the official viewer about the time I finished it. However, the fact that all those skins/bodies will need their map redoing is going to be an issue - there's a LOT of them out there and it's a pretty sure bet that some of their makers are not going to update what's already out there. In its own way this level of "breaking existing content" is up there with what happened with all the stuff using invisiprims when deferred rendering hit the grid, if not more significant because deferred rendering started as, and still is (for now), an option - but EEP is core code.

Well maybe its about time Deferred becomes the baseline experience. They already killed off legacy rendering and made Vertex Shaders the minimum.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

6 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

Well maybe its about time Deferred becomes the baseline experience. They already killed off legacy rendering and made Vertex Shaders the minimum.

You won't get a word of disagreement from me on that one! I know LL are considering it...

But it almost makes the point about how big a hit the specularity changes are, it's been how many years with deferred out there before LL started considering making it the baseline? With it being core to the official viewer now EEP is as impactful on content as deferred rendering was when it was first introduced and yet it has become the baseline immdiately. I, personally, don't have any problem with this - most of what I make is for me and so if I pull something out of my inventory and it's got pre-EEP specularity still on it and looks like hell, well I've got all the base files to fix it and remake the materials in minutes. Customers of all the skin and body shops don't have that luxury. I'm not, in any way, saying that it shouldn't have been done or that EEP should be rolled back because of the impact of these changes. I just foresee a fair bit of howling over it.

[Beev Fallen]

6 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

I agree that spec reflections from local lights are more intense than pre-EEP. However, the reflections from the sun are still way too low in EEP. It's easy to test with a simple cube. Be it midday, or sunset etc..

Not that it's reasonable to redo every object anyway, It's rather impossible to get reasonable results for sun and local lights now.

I agree, the reflection from the sun is WAY weaker in EEP. In pre-EEP you can easily see that glowy-bright reflection from the sun when setting specular to the max values, you can't see that in EEP, on the same WL.

 

So, we have twice more intense speculars for the local lights, and twice less intense specular reflections from the sun. ?!

 

6 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

I think the biggest issue with the changes to the specularity in EEP is actually with mesh bodies that use a specular map to give the skin a subtle sheen (not the "freshly oiled" look that some folks favor, I'm talking about a much more subtle effect) The other day I was hanging out with a friend who wears what was a rather beautiful dark skin with a very well-done subtle sheen, pre-EEP. In any EEP-enabled viewer she looks like she was cast in bronze.  It's very noticeable on many, many avatars.

I can confirm that, tested with several avatars, the issue is here.

[Beev Fallen]

 

It is not just lower intensity, it works in a different way.

In Pre-EEP Glossiness controls the sharpness of the specular reflection, pretty linear from 1 to 255.

In EEP... I have no idea what is going on, to me it looks broken.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Beev Fallen

[arton Rotaru]

On further testing, it looks like the encoding of specular maps, under the sun/moon, is completely broken in EEP.

1) Set Environment to Midday (Ctrl+Shift+Y)
2) Rez a Cube. Texture blank. Color gray.
3) Apply a blank specular map. Set Glossiness to 255. Set spec color to black.
4) Move the camera above the cube.

In Pre-EEP there will be no specular reflection of the sun. As expected due to the black spec color.
In EEP there will be a bright reflection of the sun.

[mehllama]

On 4/29/2020 at 10:37 AM, NiranV Dean said:

That's because most if not all specular maps need to be redone on texture level.

And almost every creator uses a monochrome texture for it, which might work sometimes but not always. Sometimes a texture that is actually the same as the main texture or a color variation of it works better and helps to avoid that mucousy look you see sometimes with mesh items in bright lights. You get shines with rich colors. If you don't have access to the textures on items that are only Mod, you can still sort of do that by clicking on Texture under shininess, then blank, then use the shine color picker to enhance the shine with a hue. I do this a bit on mod hair so they appear to shine as hair does rather than appearing to be covered in doughnut glaze. 

[mehllama]

 

On 8/26/2019 at 12:27 PM, Oz Linden said:

Customized stars was considered, and didn't make the cut this time around. It's still on my personal watch list, so maybe next time.

Here's something a bit nerdy but maybe of use to academia for consideration at some point. What if SL could team with something like Stellarium or other stargazing app creator or institution to offer something of a virtual world meets astronomy studies thing to view a RL celestial bodies. Particularly now with the Covid fun, schools are re-imagining the role of the digital world with the classroom. If there were a way to import star files or whatnot so SL could be used as a virtual astronomy classroom, that could be useful - might also draw academia in more. Very niche and off the wall, I know. Could be neat, though.  

[Da5id Weatherwax]

2 hours ago, mehllama said:

And almost every creator uses a monochrome texture for it, which might work sometimes but not always. Sometimes a texture that is actually the same as the main texture or a color variation of it works better and helps to avoid that mucousy look you see sometimes with mesh items in bright lights. You get shines with rich colors. If you don't have access to the textures on items that are only Mod, you can still sort of do that by clicking on Texture under shininess, then blank, then use the shine color picker to enhance the shine with a hue. I do this a bit on mod hair so they appear to shine as hair does rather than appearing to be covered in doughnut glaze. 

THIS.

Now, it's important to note that this is NOT the way specularity is supposed to work. In a modern PBR engine a metallic surface is the only thing that should have colored specularity. But it IS the way SL specularity works, both before and after EEP. Balancing the tint (if any) in the specular map with the environment factor is hugely important if something is to look right and its real subtle - the tiniest differences in the map or env value (as modified by the specular maps alpha channel) can make a huge change in how something looks.

[Oz Linden]

On 5/7/2020 at 4:30 AM, mehllama said:

What if SL could team with something like Stellarium or other stargazing app creator or institution to offer something of a virtual world meets astronomy studies thing to view a RL celestial bodies.

I imagine that one could do that now by projecting the stars from a RL source onto the interior of a big sphere rather than on the sky itself.

But maybe if some educational institution that wanted a bunch of regions put that on their list of requirements, I could get the project prioritized 🙂

[Ardy Lay]

I remember late builds of Snowglobe built its starfield from a catalog.  I miss that detail of the night sky.  It made SL feel more familiar.

[Ardy Lay]

14 hours ago, Oz Linden said:

I imagine that one could do that now by projecting the stars from a RL source onto the interior of a big sphere rather than on the sky itself.

But maybe if some educational institution that wanted a bunch of regions put that on their list of requirements, I could get the project prioritized 🙂

I remember late builds of Snowglobe built its starfield from a catalog.  I miss that detail of the night sky.  It made SL feel more familiar.

[Polenth Yue]

I downloaded the EEP update and then switched to Firestorm so I can avoid EEP for as long as possible. I do like the environment part of it, but the way it messes up materials is not great. It breaks old content on a scale that means redoing years of work. Even with my small shop, that's daunting.

Now, it might have been intended to break everything, but I can't see why. It's not realism to have a sun that doesn't reflect off anything except the most shiny of chrome textures. It's just odd.

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Polenth Yue said:

I downloaded the EEP update and then switched to Firestorm so I can avoid EEP for as long as possible. I do like the environment part of it, but the way it messes up materials is not great. It breaks old content on a scale that means redoing years of work. Even with my small shop, that's daunting.

Now, it might have been intended to break everything, but I can't see why. It's not realism to have a sun that doesn't reflect off anything except the most shiny of chrome textures. It's just odd.

Agreed and I am not surprised as I have been in this camp for awhile. I am HOPING that some of the third party viewers will somehow give us a choice or "branch" (likely not as so much work). There are a huge number of folks that don't want this -- have NEVER wanted this and would like things to remain the same.  I have updated to the latest FS viewer so good for awhile. After I have to make a choice -- not sure what that choice will be.  

 

I know that the devs in some third party viewers have NOT been excited about EEP.  Really since it could ever be "fixed" they should have just let it go IMO.   But they did not. So we'll see what the future brings. The fact that they decided it was "ready" knowing that there were still huge problems ---- not good.   

 

Instant edit: Since I rarely used materials in my mesh -- opting for baked textures -- it really isn't a "redo" thing (which I will NOT do BTW) it is that I don't like the way that the world looks. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Chic Aeon

[MarissaOrloff]

Is there anyway to disable EEP and go back to the way it was? EEP has a huge impact on FPS.

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, MarissaOrloff said:

Is there anyway to disable EEP and go back to the way it was? EEP has a huge impact on FPS.

For now you could use a viewer that doesn't have EEP.  The newest Firestorm (a couple of days ago) still doesn't have EEP. So that viewer will be "good" and will be able to access the grid for most likely a year.  There are some third party viewers that don't plan on adding EEP ever and also don't have the rule about keeping the viewer version fairly recent. 

 

 I was hoping from the beginning that someone would make EEP optional as you suggest -- mostly because so many folks testing it hated it LOL.   That could still happen maybe.   

[arabellajones]

I think the problem area is the EEP settings for land parcels. I was trying the SL viewer this morning (UK time) and the default settings, what a new user would see, are horrible. Some things are down to the Lindens, like the grey-on-black colour scheme, but it was defaulting to some sort of local EEP setting. And I know that location doesn't have one.

Since I was getting near-midnight lighting everything was pretty black. And it doesn't look as though the old Ctrl-Shift-Y works in EEP.

So I think we're going to struggle until the people controlling land parcels get their act together.