Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[kiramanell]

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DesperadoReprise wrote:

Sy, the main problem is not the technical platform for Sanitised Life; it is that creators/vendors are going to be bankrupted prior to any migration because their customers - as they discover that there are no guarantees that anything they purchase from now on will be of any value in a very short time - are going to stop buying. They have already, if several reports are to be believed, and why should they not be.

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This is certainly an important issue. Why should I, as someone who tends to spend huge amounts of LL on fancy mesh homes/furniture, etc., continue to do so, knowing it will all end soon? (And yes, 2 years is soon).

Or why would I, if I were a content creator, embark on very ambitious new projects, when I know it's all for nought ere long?

To illustrate, in my country it's illegal to announce, upfront, you're going bankrupt. So, if you run, say, a web-shop, and a client places an order today, whilst you know you will go bankrupt tomorrow, you're not allowed to tell him (yet). While that sounds scummy, it is done so as not to disadvantage the store's main creditors, as, indeed, ppl would immediately stop buying at your store once they learn you're going under soon. And who could blame them?!

[DesperadoReprise]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

 

Why are you bothering with this discussion? You know, as well as I do, that Despeperado doesn't care about the actual state of the law, or, really, about what LL is actually planning to do. This is pure trolling.

We have a pretty straight-forward statement from Ebbe that the current rating system will be applied to the new VW. However one wants to twist his words, the absolutely clear burden of his meaning is that this will operate there just as it currently does in SL. I've asked him about the CS, and we'll see if he responds, but at the moment there in no evidence -- zilch, nada, zip -- that they have any plans to "sanitize" the new grid. Now, that may change once the lawyers and marketers get into the act, but the point is that speculation about changes to permissible content is pure supposition.

It's all rather irrelevant, anyway: anyone who doesn't believe that there isn't already sexual age play -- and, for that matter, racism -- in SL isn't looking very hard. If there is going to be a change in policy, it is far more likely to be around the currently rather lax enforcement of existing rules, rather than a hard text revision of the ToS and CS.

In the meantime, stop feeding the troll!

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While you are demanding answers, you might slip in whether Sanitised Life will offer free, anonymous membership.

If not, they might as well rename it Dodo Life.

"ain't it hard when you're all alone in the center ring?"

 

[LaskyaClaren]

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DesperadoReprise wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

 

Why are you bothering with this discussion? You know, as well as I do, that Despeperado doesn't care about the actual state of the law, or, really, about what LL is actually planning to do. This is pure trolling.

We have a pretty straight-forward statement from Ebbe that the current rating system will be applied to the new VW. However one wants to twist his words, the absolutely clear burden of his meaning is that this will operate there just as it currently does in SL. I've asked him about the CS, and we'll see if he responds, but at the moment there in no evidence -- zilch, nada, zip -- that they have any plans to "sanitize" the new grid. Now, that may change once the lawyers and marketers get into the act, but the point is that speculation about changes to permissible content is pure supposition.

It's all rather irrelevant, anyway: anyone who doesn't believe that there isn't already sexual age play -- and, for that matter, racism -- in SL isn't looking very hard. If there is going to be a change in policy, it is far more likely to be around the currently rather lax enforcement of existing rules, rather than a hard text revision of the ToS and CS.

In the meantime, stop feeding the troll!

---

While you are demanding answers, you might slip in whether Sanitised Life will offer free, anonymous membership.

If not, they might as well rename it Dodo Life.

"ain't it hard when you're all alone in the center ring?"

 

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I actually did ask that.

[Coby Foden]

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

 

In regards to the second life screenshot above: The two people sitting there seem to feel comfortable in this piece of puffy pixels. If they would not, what was their motivation to rez it? Or (OMG!) spend money on it?

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Well, actually the normal human sized avatars did not rez that monstrous sitting place there. That place was a live concert venue, the furniture was the venue owner's.

Maybe the owner had stretched them even larger than they had been originally 'to just to fill up the space'?

:smileysurprised: :smileytongue:

[Vivienne Schell]

"you feel your creations become outdated in about two years already."

No, not at all. My guess is that this siperduperfantastic brave "new" Linden World wll turn out to be just another mobile/tablet app which might be of some interest for people wanting clean family entertainment, but cannot replace Second Life as an environment. Not in any way. It would surprise me.

I am not overly frightened there, i only complain on the fact that announcing this to be a "REPLACEMENT" (not even directly, but indirectly by a terribly dumb formulated statement someone made) lit some totally unnecessary fire which actually has the potential to harm the cow which Linden Lab milks and desperately needs for now - and in the future.

"So what's the big difference about the idea that there will be a new platform for Second Life coming in two years that will make your current products outdated? Isn't that happening already, judging from your own workflow?"

The only difference I COULD be worried about is the FACT that the full perm animations I licensed and the scripts I licensed will become obsolete and not usable in Brave New Linden World. Which means that I either have to pay again (which would cost me about 10,000 US dollars at least) for something which does not even EXIST or bite into the sour apple and start with producing my own animations and script my own animation engines, which would require YEARS of work. And yes, even my meshes will not be fully compatible.

But actually, I am not really worried because i am pretty sure that Brave New Linden World will turn out to be just another Linden "visionary" and conceptional disaster (as so many before) and Second Life will last for a loooong time, either driven by Linden Lab or by someone else. And honestly, i have a Real Life  (YES!) and my interests are not really limited to what some lil Software Garage in San Francisco has in their plans after 11 years of more or less successful crisis management.

[Ohjiro Watanabe]

Desperado, oh, you ain't getting no younger, Your pain and your hunger, they're drivin' you home. And freedom, oh freedom well, that's just some people talkin' your prison is walking through this world all alone.

[Magnus Brody]

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DesperadoReprise wrote:

Sy, the main problem is not the technical platform for Sanitised Life; it is that creators/vendors are going to be bankrupted prior to any migration because their customers - as they discover that there are no guarantees that anything they purchase from now on will be of any value in a very short time - are going to stop buying. They have already, if several reports are to be believed, and why should they not be.

The knock-on effect of this on the existing SL economy will be massive, as will be the consequences for LL's ability to fund the development of Sanitised Life. Any business plan (although somehow I doubt if one exists as yet) would have to be based on the redirection of existing profits from maintenance and V1 enhancement to V2 resources. But the profits, as explained, aren't going to be sustained, and by letting the cat out of the bag this early Ebbe has shot himself in the foot, because the Board are going to have to go running to third parties for money. And who is going to be interested? Nobody has been in the past five years, and every other attempt to offer a "better sl" has been a short-term commercial disaster

Of course creators are looking for reassurances that they might be able to bridge the trading gap technically, and many will be doing their utmost to try to bolster market confidence by offering unfounded assurances to customers.

I know that SL users are not known for their collective intelligence, but I don't think they are going to be taken in by the tepid and unprepared bluster currently issuing from an obviously disturbed - and apparently isolated - CEO.

Bottom line? I don't think SL is going to last long enough to support the development period of Sanitised Life. And the CEO certainly isn't.

"all you blood-thirsty bystanders, will you try to find your seats"

---

Agree

Perhaps

Off on one, again

Irrelevant

 

[DesperadoReprise]

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Ohjiro Watanabe wrote:

Desperado, oh, you ain't getting no younger, Your pain and your hunger, they're drivin' you home. And freedom, oh freedom well, that's just some people talkin' your prison is walking through this world all alone.

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I'm V2, man, the Reprise!

Older, wiser, sadder.

"you will never kill the pain"

[DesperadoReprise]

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

But actually, I am not really worried because i am pretty sure that Brave New Linden World will turn out to be just another Linden "visionary" and conceptional disaster (as so many before) and

Second Life will last for a loooong time

, either driven by Linden Lab or by someone else.

---

I think the premature announcement of Sanitised Life means that this is now extremely unlikely.

"is there going to be anything left?"

[Vivienne Schell]

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"I think the premature announcement of Sanitised Life means that this is now extremely unlikely"

Not sure, but they must start with effectie damage repair anytime soon, otherwise the damage done will kill their running business and Sanitised World as well.

Damn, and i just bought a new tablet and smartphone. It´s a tragedy.

[Drongle McMahon]

Thanks, Arton. You saved me from having to write something similar. I think most of the discussion here is failing to take account of how different the new world may be, not just for mesh and materials, but for everything else. No doubt the blender files etc that people have will be useful starting points for generating content suitablr for the new world, but I would be very surprised if they did not require very substantial modifications to fit in with the new technology. We won't know until we have much more technical detail, especially of what the engine is and how the system will deal with resource allocation/conservation. Right now, those things are probably still in the discussion/research phase,even inside LL, in which case it will be a long time before anyone really knows what the content transfer possibilities may be.

ETA: Oh. I did write somethging similar after all! Never mind.

[Ebbe Linden]

you said: You know why I use a TPV?  It's not for the bells and whistles.  It's because of a couple of simple little things that we repeatedly asked to be implemented in the Official Viewer that have been ignored for years.

 

Which little things? Thanks!

[Imagin Illyar]

I use Firestorm mostly for the built in customizable Animation Overide and for the "Restore to last Position" function.  I switched from the standard viewer so long ago now that when I try to use it it feels very foreign to me.  

[Ebbe Linden]

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Teager wrote:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

You asked: 

1 - What type of assets are more likelly to be transferable to SL2 and what probably not? (meshes, animations, sculpts, scripts, textures, builds made of normal prims, system clothing ?)

We don't have all the answers to this one yet, but several areas will have radical improvements and thus not possible to be fully backwards compatible. 

Mesh is ok (but with better lighting and other tech you may want to make tweaks)

Animations will change (major mprovements as we don't currently do it the way it should be done)

Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)

Scripts (major improvement, so will change)

Textures ok

Prims (TBD, but probably not as is)

Avatars will be radically improved as well so a lot TBD 

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Let me start by saying... I'm thrilled to see news of a new, improved grid. I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of the changes we've been needing and have been unable to build on the old platform.

But... seeing that animations will change has made me very nervous. As a creator of mesh avatars which must be fully custom animated, you've just implied that my entire line of work may need to be redone for SL2. So this brings up one major question which, from my point of view, could be the single make-or-break factor for SL2:

Will mesh avatar creators finally be able to create and name our own custom armatures?

Providing this high-demand feature to mesh avatar creators could allow us to do so much - rigged mesh wings, tails, rigged faces, rigged fingers and toes. And (perhaps now more importantly) would prevent mesh avatar creators and animators from essentially having to 

start over

on our creations.

Is custom armature creation a feature we can hope to see with the new grid?

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I mentioned earlier that we want creators to be able to create user defined skeletons, so it's on the list. 

[DesperadoReprise]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

While you are demanding answers, you might slip in whether Sanitised Life will offer free, anonymous membership.

If not, they might as well rename it Dodo Life.

"ain't it hard when you're all alone in the center ring?"

 

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I actually did ask that.

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And?

Maybe I missed the answer . . .

"wonder why?"

[Pamela Galli]

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

you said: 

You know why I use a TPV?  It's not for the bells and whistles.  It's because of a couple of simple little things that we repeatedly asked to be implemented in the Official Viewer that have been ignored for years.

 

Which little things? Thanks!

---

The two non negotiable ones for me:

1.The ability to copy and paste Rotation, Size, and Position I have found absolutely essential in building, esp mesh.* Every TPV has had that capability for a long time.

2. Auto-response:  Many common questions/issues I address on my Support and FAQ pages, so I link to those.  Saves a lot of time.

 

3. Restore to Last Position 

 

4. Pie menu (leverages muscle memory).

 

I use Singularity -- a V 1 interface - and really love it. What a wonderful tool it is. (The Official Viewer I find unusable.)

 

* For example:  I upload an entire house. Then because of LI and LOD considerations, I upload each separate mesh in the house individually, and by copying parameters I can place each piece where it goes.

 

 

 

 

[Niecia Davi]

From what I read today about the upcoming new sl2 the scripting will change / prims will change and sculpts MAY be imported as mesh. This means dont buy anything that is prim/sculpt-based or scripted with LSL at this time they are trash and there will be NO PLACE in the NEW SL2 for them.  As it stands right now it would be like buying an old television set that does not pick up the new wavelength...useless...well useless in the near future...but means you buy it plan on trashing it.  Merchants might as well start giving From what I read today about the upcoming new sl2 the scripting will change / prims will change and sculpts MAY be imported as mesh. This means dont buy anything that is prim/sculpt-based or scripted with LSL at this time they are trash and there will be NO PLACE in the NEW SL2 for them.  As it stands right now it would be like buying an old television set that does not pick up the new wavelength...useless...well useless in the near future...but means you buy it plan on trashing it.  Merchants might as well start giving prim/sculpt-based objects and LSL scripted objects away for free because Linden labs just rendered them useless. away for free because Linden labs just rendered them useless.

[Innula Zenovka]

I primarily use Catznip.  Apart from RLVa (of which more in a moment), I very much like both the enhanced building tools, which allow me easily to copy and paste parameters from one object to another, and the way they have handled outfits, which has always seemed to me far more intuitive and logical than the way the official viewer (or most other TPVs) handle them, and which makes outfits a lot easier to adjust on the fly (e.g. the "remove folder" option, which allows me to click on a shoe, and remove everything contained in that folder -- both shoes, shoe shapes, alpha layers -- in one click).

As to RLVa, I do hope that something similar survives in SL2, possibly as part of an enhanced form of experience permissions.   Allowing scripted objects to control the viewer interface has so many applications in RP, and not just BDSM (though that's a very large and important market).   Forcing people to use the sim's windlight settings, for example, or being able to turn off their IMs and access to the minimap, is very useful in some forms of combat RP.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

you said: 

You know why I use a TPV?  It's not for the bells and whistles.  It's because of a couple of simple little things that we repeatedly asked to be implemented in the Official Viewer that have been ignored for years.

 

Which little things? Thanks!

---

How about the ability to have it look more like he old phoenix, or have a pie chart when we right click,?

[Gavin Hird]

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

you said: 

You know why I use a TPV?  It's not for the bells and whistles.  It's because of a couple of simple little things that we repeatedly asked to be implemented in the Official Viewer that have been ignored for years.

 

Which little things? Thanks!

---

• Worn items tab in the Inventory floater.
• Preview animations on the avatar on upload
• Copy paste parameters in the Edit floater
• In general the outfit floater and functionality is convoluted compared to pre version 2 viewers
• Built in AO in the viewer
• Add back the Grid manager – yes I know you don't want us to use other services ;-) 
• Object area search
• Measure tool for measuring distance between two objects

[Zena Zemlja]

Ebbe, if you seriously don't want any third parties in the new platform, then I suggest you ask them to help you build it. I'm serious. I use Firestorm for so many years already, and actually 90% of all my friends do, I would not know anymore what features are not in the sl viewer that I am now so used to in Firestorm.

From reading the previous posts here, rlv would not be in the sl viewer, which is something I am stupified about. One of the posts in this thread mentions the Opencollar group having 90,000 members, and it operates on rlv, so that should tell you something. I cannot imagine building anything without the copy past abilities in rotation, size and positions, like mentioned in one the previous posts. And the 'restore to last position' ability in inventory made my second life so much easier, it saves hours of time rerezzing and repositioning stuff. And I love the inbuilt radar system, the possibility to get a message when someone enters region or chat range, etc. And the auto response, yes, I cannot use busy since it rejects notecards sent, which I need to receive for my business, so auto response really is a big help for me.

If you want any of the Firestorm users to be enthousiastic about the new platform, it will have to have the current Firestorm features to begin with. I hope users of other tpv's will respond to your message as well. 

[Ebbe Linden]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

Yeah. 

This is why I mentioned expediting their modeling and planning, which I hope (and suspect) they are doing.

It should be possible to produce reasonably full answers to many if not most of these questions this early on: surely they are not making this up as they go along?

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What do you want to know?

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I realize you might not have this level of detail worked out yet but:

 

When you mention types of content that might be able to be ported over, such as mesh, do you mean purchased content in inventories that could be moved over into new same-name account inventories, or content that can be uploaded by creators?

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This one will take more time for us to figure out. It won't be trivial, or in some cases possible, to just do this on the fly. I think it will have to go through the creators to update/modify to make things (or users may get upset with us and the creator when things don't work exactly as expected). So maybe a system that makes it easy for creators to know what items to update and redistribute to their existing customers is the way to go where the creators can decide how to charge for those updates (or not). I'm guessing this would be the direction to explore...

[Ebbe Linden]

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Mony Lindman wrote:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

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You will certainly be able keep your identity, social network and L$ and you can hop back and forth and decide for yourself where it makes sense to spend your time and energy. 

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How do you mean this "hop back and forth" move ? In the same viewer ? Teleporting ? Loging off and loging in with another viewer ?

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Sorry, different viewers you would have to run side by side. 

[Chic Aeon]

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Zena Zemlja wrote:

Ebbe, if you seriously don't want any third parties in the new platform, then I suggest you ask them to help you build it. I'm serious. 

I use Firestorm for so many years already, and actually 90% of all my friends do, I would not know anymore what features are not in the sl viewer that I am now so used to in Firestorm.

From reading the previous posts here, rlv would not be in the sl viewer, which is something I am stupified about. One of the posts in this thread mentions the Opencollar group having 90,000 members, and it operates on rlv, so that should tell you something. I cannot imagine building anything without the copy past abilities in rotation, size and positions, like mentioned in one the previous posts. And the 'restore to last position' ability in inventory made my second life so much easier, it saves hours of time rerezzing and repositioning stuff. And I love the inbuilt radar system, the possibility to get a message when someone enters region or chat range, etc. And the auto response, yes, I cannot use busy since it rejects notecards sent, which I need to receive for my business, so auto response really is a big help for me.

If you want any of the Firestorm users to be enthousiastic about the new platform, it will have to have the current Firestorm features to begin with. I hope users of other tpv's will respond to your message as well. 

---

I was thinking about the viewer issue this morning and your post sort of sums it up for me although I have never and will never use RLV

 

I went out filming today and realised that I would have not been able to WITHOUT Derender. And it would have been VERY painful (read just not worth it) to do without the Phototools and the Presets Pane. It IS possible. We DID do it before, but I doubt any of us want to go back there again.

I was also remembering  how many of the "we will ONLY use PHOENIX" crowd actually left when the viewer got dropped despite all the great efforts the FS folks did to placate them and make the FS version adaptable to be much like Phoenix.  If you drop in over at the FS blog post on The New World there are 550 so posts, most not giving the input that was asked for of course, but ranting with very little basis. I do not agree with most of them but they ARE citizens and they apparently pay for sims and buy lots of stuff. So in the big picture they certainly count.

If there is only going to be ONE viewer, it really does need to cater not only to the new folks but to the vast majority that use Firestorm as a "power viewer".  Maybe a third hidden tab is the answer.

 

 

[Medhue Simoni]

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

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Teager wrote:

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Let me start by saying... I'm thrilled to see news of a new, improved grid. I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of the changes we've been needing and have been unable to build on the old platform.

But... seeing that animations will change has made me very nervous. As a creator of mesh avatars which must be fully custom animated, you've just implied that my entire line of work may need to be redone for SL2. So this brings up one major question which, from my point of view, could be the single make-or-break factor for SL2:

Will mesh avatar creators finally be able to create and name our own custom armatures?

Providing this high-demand feature to mesh avatar creators could allow us to do so much - rigged mesh wings, tails, rigged faces, rigged fingers and toes. And (perhaps now more importantly) would prevent mesh avatar creators and animators from essentially having to 

start over

on our creations.

Is custom armature creation a feature we can hope to see with the new grid?

---

I mentioned earlier that we want creators to be able to create user defined skeletons, so it's on the list. 

---

Not only do we need custom skeletons, but also Blend shapes/Shape keys/Morphs. They are called something different in every program, but they all do the same thing. They allow the creator to move the topology around on the mesh to create a whole new look, much the same as the Body shape sliders in SL. We also need to be able to animate these morphs. Imagine a Rocky avatar, whose face distorts, bruises and swells when he is hit. Plus, then we'll be able to make animated facial expressions, and have the face move realistically.