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Jo Yardley

Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

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"So, what makes them suddenly think the world is ready for Matrix 2.0 now?!"

 

The Board: "Second Life is profitable, but not profitable enough"

The Techies: "It´s not high tech enough."

The Board: "So, what´s the plan for conquering the virtual univerese?"

The Techies: "High Tech like... (come up with a series of tech language terms which sound as promising as the program running R2D2, crowd looks stunned.)

The Business Folks. "We must go mobile, cause this is the future market"

The Philosophers: (Nietzsche quotes in chinese, rest of the crowd looks stunned)

The Board. "Then lets go hight tech on mobile devices while keeping some pages of Nietzsche, perfect solution!"

(Everyone grumbles a bit)

The Sales Persons: "And we´ll sell it as being the next generation VR. People always love "NEW""

(Everyone nods)

The Board: "Well, then go ahead and create the next generation new high end tablet app with a shot of Nietzsche, good luck with it!"

 

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Lol, i do not know who you are because i am too lazy to check. To make it shorter i will take an example : in my country - all without exception - mobile phone companies were forced to modify their first step agreement. That's all.
because in my country and others : nobody made your choice : saying ok to everything or renouncing to have a mobile phone. It came so evident for goverment states hat i even do not know why i am answering .

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Don't argue with him. That's his sole reason for posting.

We know that, Phil, but I didn't want everyone reading his continual posts to think Ebbe was being unclear because he wasn't communicating effectively.

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DesperadoReprise wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:


DesperadoReprise wrote:


irihapeti wrote:

DesperadoReprise wrote:

... virtual sexual ageplay between consenting adults isn't actually illegal in any legislation I have seen.

 

where I live depictions of it are. Which is what pixellations are. Not only are the actors guilty of a criminal act by depicting sexual ageplay so are the operators of the service which enables it

 

Electronic cartoons - which is what SL is - are not illegal depictions; only if real life people are depicted might it be illegal, and even then, there is an artistic licence defence.

By your argument, ebooks of Lolita - which are textual pixellations depicting sexual age-play - would still be illegal; but then, maybe they are in some culturally backward countries.

"ain't it hard"

Wrong, both the UK and Germany has very strict legislation covering pixelated depictions too. Possibly other countries as well.

As far as I am aware, there's certainly a degree of interpretation involved in the UK, but I wouldn't like to comment on the German situation.

But you would agree that virtual child pornography is specifically allowed in the USA by the 2003 PROTECT Act?

So it is "legal" where LL is based.

Which contradicts Ebbe's claim.

"just an empty fable"

It most certainly is not allowed in the USA.

"In the United States, the PROTECT Act of 2003 made significant changes to the law regarding virtual child pornography. Any realistic appearing computer generated depiction that is indistinguishable from a depiction of an actual minor in sexual situations or engaging in sexual acts is illegal under 18 U.S.C. § 2252A. Drawings, cartoons, sculptures, and paintings of minors in sexual situations that do not pass the Miller test were made illegal under 18 U.S.C. § 1466A."

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But when everybody is satisfied with what we have in SL now, why do we see so many people shouting so loud for getting things fixed and done and changed and made different from how they are now in SL ? So it appears to me that there is need for change. And i suspect we can not have change everything to the better and keep everything as it is at the same time. Hence i guess that the best working solution is to develop the better product in parallel to the existing one. would that be a bad strategy after all ?

 

  • I could understand that people would get very angry when LL decided to change things IN SL and just go and break existing content. But LL did not do this. So is "avoid to break any user content" a good or bad attitude of LL ? (Taking the costs of increasing complexity into account)
     
  • I could understand anger if LL decided to close SL1 on day X and open SL2 instead. They apparently do not go this route. They plan to keep both worlds online until it becomes clear how things evolve.
    Is that bad ?
     
  • I could understand anger if LL decided to not allow any transition (neither identity nor money nor assets) from SL1 to SL2. They apparently do not plan to do that, but have plans in mind to allow transition of assets "where possible".
    Is that bad ?

So the new world will be created in parallel to keep SL intact, they say they will even improve SL1. They say they have no plans to shut down SL1, they say your identity gets preserved, L$ remains as it is, assets will be transferable to some extend. Can there be any evil in this plan ?

From all what i read here i only can get the impression that LL are very user aware (which does not necessary mean user friendly, but that is another story). As a side note: It is indeed interesting to learn how region owners will be supported, but this question raised already (and i am curious for the answer as well).

And honestly, running second Life for 11 years and still swimming in the fish tank does not look like a major failure of management to me...

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

It most certainly is not allowed in the USA.

"In the United States, the
made significant changes to the law regarding virtual child pornography. Any realistic appearing computer generated depiction that is indistinguishable from a depiction of an actual minor in sexual situations or engaging in sexual acts is illegal under
 
. Drawings, cartoons, sculptures, and paintings of minors in sexual situations that do not pass the
were made illegal under
 
."

I am glad to hear!

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"I'm here. Reading everything. But there are a lof questions I can't (or won't) answer at this time. And it's also good to see you all talking amongst yourselves and I've already seen that dialog trend in a positive direction. "

 

And herein lies a huge problem most custoemrs of SL have had for years, things that will not be discussed. It is my understanding that pruchased content will not be migrated over. That means a huge loss on investment for old timers such as me who have 9 years in SL. A tax for content will only succeed in squelching new creators form starting. I will be honest and say this sounds like yet more panderring to high dfollar customers with a total lack fo regard for the little guys,  This brings back reminiscences of a certain ex presidential candidate and his comments about the 47%. Ebbe if you want the view of a long time Sler about all this and where SL has been and mistakes made, feel free to contact me in world sometime. I would welcome a discussion with you about it, but one of Sls major probelsm has always been selectively applying ToS and following up AR's and bug reports selectively by financial status rahter then viewing it as all cusotmers are created equally. That is a mistake I would rather not see you continuing.

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Mony Lindman wrote:


Ebbe Linden wrote:

You asked: 

1 - What type of assets are more likelly to be transferable to SL2 and what probably not? (meshes, animations, sculpts, scripts, textures, builds made of normal prims, system clothing ?)

We don't have all the answers to this one yet, but several areas will have radical improvements and thus not possible to be fully backwards compatible. 

Mesh is ok (but with better lighting and other tech you may want to make tweaks)

Animations will change (major mprovements as we don't currently do it the way it should be done)

Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)

Scripts (major improvement, so will change)

Textures ok

Prims (TBD, but probably not as is)

Avatars will be radically improved as well so a lot TBD 

Again, we will have years to sort this all out together...

2 - Is SL2 to be considerd "another grid" in which case the TOS of most full permission creators would prohibit the transfer to that grid? If that is the case, could LL speak a word of power and decide that for full permission items that CAN be transfered, the new SL should be considered as the "same grid" ?

ToS will not be an issue. 

3 - Will at least the L$ currency remain the same and will available balances be usable in both worlds?

Yes

4 - Will the 2 worlds be connected in any way and will an avatar be able to move from one to another with the same name and profile and groups and friends? And .. some of its inventory..

Identity and friends will be preserved. Inventory depends on above decisions under #1 but we clearly want as much of existing work to be possible to leverage as long as it will not impact how good the new platform can be. 

Thanks for the answers, Im sure everyone needed them. If possible maybe a few details are still needed..

you say :  Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)

Converting to mesh would not be a problem indeed but the advantage of sculpts is that they are only 1 prim each . Meshes have usually more. And in the present SL if i put scripts in a mesh it doubles the Li. Will this be the case also in SL2 ?

And as i asked about the TOS i didnt mean the SL TOS but the TOS of the full permission creators who all dont allow the use of their items in other grids. So the question remains: is SL2 "another grid" ? And i also asked at point 4: will an avatar be able to move from one to another (grid)? Your answer to the TOS question sugests that its the same grid but .. how would that work? In the same viewer ? I would need a little more clarity here plase..

Genrally it dosnt look very good for someone like me who spent over 2 million lindens on full perm animations and if i understand well they can not be moved to SL2, nor can they be somehow converted .. This will of course affect all animators and also all builder who make animated items.. Therfore I would be very interested to hear your oppinion about the other possible "option" I just posted (bottom of page 51)

Thanks

 

I really saw no answers in his post except a lot of we don't know or cannot discuss. Meaning most likely assets will NOT transfer. I've seen 9 years of this kind of answers in SL.

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I have watched this frothing from a distance on Twitter and some respectable blogs and have gone from exasperation to belly laughing at some of the "Sky is falling down" comments.

Second Life is archaic in terms of modern VR/Gaming/Sandbox or Entertainment and a great leap forward was needed and trying to jump the chasm with SL attached would have been like trying to jump a chasm in two steps.  Anyone who is building in mesh, and if you aren't why not, should have no problem I envisage porting across their products and starting anew.  To consumers who feel that they have lost out on items purchased then tough luck, that's progress.  Did you all complain to Sony when they ditched VHS for DVDs or was it a case that you couldn't wait to get hold of a DVD player and play on the shiny new toy?

And for those who want backward compatibility equally read "future constraint".  You sound like a person who upon hearing of the invention of the car would want it fuelled by straw and oats, capable of pulling a buggy and be steered by reins.  

What does interest me is how are the other VWs going to respond.  Will they stay with this tired, worn out model and look like a Stone Age VW when LL's new platform is released or will they compete with LL at the same technological development level on what will be virgin ground with LL having done most of the groundwork and problem solving?

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Gavin Hird wrote:


irihapeti wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:

According to the law you cannot give away your IP rights in the form of a TOS.

The TOS can in many ways be seen as a one way declaration which makes it void. 

 

i dont think thats right. How you interpreting it

i make a song. I have to give the record company rights to reproduce/copy and distribute my song/content. 
 

What you describe here is a business to business contractual agreement that you are in a position to negotiate. 

In a business to consumer offering like Linden Lab's Secondlife is, the TOS is regarded a one way declaration because the consumer, in reality, has no way of changing the terms or renegotiate them. Because of this TOS must satisfy the minimum requirements of the law, in addition they must protect the consumer from casually signing away legal rights. 

As I said in a previous posting any material a consumer, in this case a Secondlife user, has created outside of SecondLife and uploads a copy of it for storage and rendering by the SecondLife runtime is by the law the intellectual property of the creator. The compilation of these elements is also the intellectual property of the creator. 

Some of the clauses in the TOS that people balk over has to do with how LL can handle these creations internally in their storage systems, moving them between machines, for rendering them to other users, for letting other users buy or use the creation, and for being able to take backup of the items.

This does not, however, mean they can be transferred to a new service for storage and rendering in the new service, unless the new service is an upgrade to the existing one (meaning the existing one goes away.)

What they also have done is making new provisions in the TOS retroactive where they essentially have given themselves the full IP rights to what is the user's IP.  This may - and I stress may, have been acceptable if the owner was given the option to retrieve a full backup of their creations and remove the existing copies fully from the existing system if they did not accept that change.  I cannot recall having seen any such options. 

If you are right, then would it be reasonable to extrapolate that SL2 cannot accept any SL1 content that wasn't completely created by the migrating resident? And even then, only after excution of a signed business to business contract?

If so, we can stop haranguing Ebbe about migration!

 

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I think that is a good initiative.Technology is simply getting better and you have to go along.

Incidentally,I am very satisfied about the current SL-32bit platform.

I love SL more than the realworld,and when everything is getting better and nicer.wow,I wil be live there forever.

 

kind regards,

Powerpill

 

 

 

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Qie Niangao wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

With animations and avatars changing "radically" will mesh clothing have to be re-rigged or will we be able to use the ones we already have?

Of course, I'm not Ebbe, but I think I can answer this, maybe even better than Ebbe.

Yes, and maybe no. If the avatar uses a different skeleton, then the clothing will need to be rigged to that new skeleton. If the creator uses the exact same skeleton from SL, then the old clothing might work, and I stress might.

Right: "might" needs a lot of stressing, given what we've read in this thread. Asked directly, Ebbe wasn't even confirming that animations will be inventory assets. I suppose with this Sylvia was asking about something like "expressive puppeteering", part of the long gone Physical Avatar project. That could be a very brave new world indeed -- but still folks will want to replay animations somehow (and store them, if it comes to that), so I'm not sure what change could be so fundamental at to prevent any form of animation from existing in inventory.

Well, this is not a knock on Ebbe, as I don't expect Ebbe to understand all the ins and outs of animation. Asking him, especially at this point, I think is a waste of time. He said some things that can lead me to make decent guesses. I'm not worried at all about whether we'll have animation assets, as I can't see how it would or could be done any other way. It would not surprise me if "radical change" just means using the FBX format, instead of BVH. Gaia seems to think BVH might stay, and I'm indifferent about which format we use, especially cause Gaia said her team will support whatever it will be. BVH, as LL did in SL, makes it easy to animated specific joints, where as I think FBX would need a complex system like Unity3D created to mask out bones for non use. The only part that worries me, is compatibility across all avatars. I'll be very happy if LL develops something like the Unity3d Mecanim system, which allows any character to be able to use any human animation. Of course, SL2's version would have to be internal and just know that these bones are human skeleton bones. Possibly, a bone naming standard would need to be implemented. So, if we all name our custom skeleton bones to the standard, then all human animations could work on them.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

This isn't just a reply to your post, kiramanell. It's meant for all who are seeing doom and gloom because of the SL2 announcement.

If LL doesn't create a much better SL-like world, someone else will. If someone else did it, we'd all be saying how much better it is 'over there', and quite a largeish chunk of the population would go over, perhaps also maintaining a presence in SL as well for a while. Those that went over wouldn't be thinking how bad it is that we can't take the inventories along, because nobody would expect SL inventories to go over.

Yeah, Except that someone else's Virtual World wouldn't go at the direct expense/cannibalization (pulling away of resources and ppl) of SL.

 

So it's LL that is creating the better world. What's wrong with that? Nobody can find fault with that. AND some of the SL inventory
will
go over. What a plus! AND SL will continue to run as well. So we get it all - a better world, some inventory going over, and continuance of SL.

As I said in chat, the other day: "Half a home is no home at all." It's cute if, say, all the mesh parts can be ported, but if the other prim-half stays behind (very realistic to still have prims in a somewhat older home), then you have totally broken build, and essentially just a pile of garbage.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


If you are right, then would it be reasonable to extrapolate that SL2 cannot accept any SL1 content that wasn't completely created by the migrating resident? And even then, only after excution of a signed business to business contract?

If so, we can stop haranguing Ebbe about migration!

 

Remember most of this discussion was about European legislation and how exactly that will pan out in the US I am unsure of.

However, the way to fix this is to establish a developer group and set up developer and distribution agreements for all those who wants their items to be transferred. I would think this can be relatively be fixed by setting a flag or two on the items in the database and make once off tick-offs for developers who accept their creations are transferred. 

This would most likely solve the need they feel they have to have that special provision in the TOS that gives them full rights to everything. of course for old stuff where the developer is no longer around, there may be some issues, but then again... 

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Gavin Hird wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


If you are right, then would it be reasonable to extrapolate that SL2 cannot accept any SL1 content that wasn't completely created by the migrating resident? And even then, only after excution of a signed business to business contract?

If so, we can stop haranguing Ebbe about migration!

 

Remember most of this discussion was about European legislation and how exactly that will pan out in the US I am unsure of.

However, the way to fix this is to establish a developer group and set up developer and distribution agreements for all those who wants their items to be transferred. I would think this can be relatively be fixed by setting a flag or two on the items in the database and make once off tick-offs for developers who accept their creations are transferred. 

This would most likely solve the need they feel they have to have that special provision in the TOS that gives them full rights to everything. of course for old stuff where the developer is no longer around, there may be some issues, but then again... 

Personally, I don't want LL to migrate any of my assets over to the new SL2, as I can decide that for myself. Yeah, it's work, but I want the control to decide how I do thing in this new SL2, as I might do things completely differently. I know many here really want LL to migrate things over, and maybe that could be a voluntary thing done by merchants. Of course, I'm not a coder, but I also see this migration as a HUGE mess of code that will be lucky if it works right and doesn't cause more problems than it is worth. This is also exactly why the TOS is bad, cause we do not have control over our assets.

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Gavin Hird wrote:


DesperadoReprise wrote:

But you would agree that virtual child pornography is specifically allowed in the USA by the 2003 PROTECT Act?

So it is "legal" where LL is based.

Which contradicts Ebbe's claim.

"just an empty fable"

I am not going to step into the interpretation of that act as I personally think it is a way too sensitive subject. If it is allowed, my personal feeling is the act should be changed to forbid it. 

I'll just add this here to help clarify for people. Note, I am not a lawyer.  This is my laymen's understanding.

In the U.S. child pixel porn is not illegal in and of itself.

To be illegal, it would first have to be determined that it was "obscene" using what is known as the "Miller Test."

Regardless, I would not want to find myself in Court having to defend myself over this. 

This is an area where prosecutors have really taken a 'shoot first, ask questions later' stance.

 

ETA, I missed seeing Drake's post above before posting this.

Why are we allowing ourselves to be dragged off on this side discussion?

We have Ebbe's statement.

If LL should decide to Sanitize SL, whether it be SL1 or SL2, that is their privilege.

If they did there are other places I can go to enjoy "Adult" activities.

But there are still a lot of other activities I enjoy in SL.

 

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Dmitri Polonsky wrote:

"I'm here. Reading everything. But there are a lof questions I can't (or won't) answer at this time. And it's also good to see you all talking amongst yourselves and I've already seen that dialog trend in a positive direction. "

 

And herein lies a huge problem most custoemrs of SL have had for years, things that will not be discussed.
It is my understanding that pruchased content will not be migrated over
. That means a huge loss on investment for old timers such as me who have 9 years in SL.
A tax for content will only succeed in squelching new creators form starting
. I will be honest and say this sounds like yet more panderring to high dfollar customers with a total lack fo regard for the little guys,  This brings back reminiscences of a certain ex presidential candidate and his comments about the 47%. Ebbe if you want the view of a long time Sler about all this and where SL has been and mistakes made, feel free to contact me in world sometime. I would welcome a discussion with you about it,
but one of Sls major probelsm has always been selectively applying ToS and following up AR's and bug reports selectively by financial status rahter then viewing it as all cusotmers are created equally.
That is a mistake I would rather not see you continuing.

Where did you get that understanding from? Not from anyone at LL, so it must have been someone's imagination. Ebbe said that some stuff would go over but he doesn't know what yet.

I don't agree with that. Suppose they change their income source from mainly land to mainly purchase tax (I got that impression from what Ebbe said). More people will get land which sounds like a good thing to me. In fact, it's what we've wanted in SL. Purchases will cost more but everyone will still buy what they can afford, just as everyone does now. There will be no disincentive for creators to start creating. If LL comes up with a system whereby only those who LL accept as creators can actually create and start businesses selling their creations, then it would be very different, of course.

I agree with you about the dire AR system, but I have to disagree that all customers are equal. The biggest customers are those who pay larger amounts of money directly to LL. The smallest customers are those who pay nothing directly to LL. Any business takes special care of their biggest customers, and rightly so. Go into a store, offer to buy one washing machine, and ask for a significant discount. You usually won't get one. But then offer to buy 10 of them and ask for a discount. You'll get one. It's business.

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I dearly hope that nobody is going to import any of their hugely oversized stuff to the new BETTER world!

big-furniture-1.jpg

sSig_aaarggh.gif   :smileysurprised:  :smileyfrustrated:  :smileyvery-happy:


Nobody wants the same totally random sizing of things in the better world as in the present one.
Agreed? Everybody? Ok, thank you very much.  :smileyhappy:

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It's been fun reading all the reactions to the news so far - though it's somewhat ironic that people are arguing for SL for once, so it can't have been a bad product for so many oldbies to be still hanging around despite all the bug/issue complaints.

Linden Lab have mostly respected the creators wishes in SL, they could have broken many scripts, or put creators out of business in the name of progress. One example is that there is still no built-in gifting system after all these years, they've respected the businesses of third-party inworld vending systems.

In fact, many creators would not be making money if it were not for SL's faults - There has always been a creation to fix or patch whatever was lacking.

Problem is that  many of us have had to grin and bear it for years while we watched the technology of online gaming overtake SL technology. This is a bold move by Linden Labs, but in truth, they don't have a choice: they could keep Second Life (which already has been pushed to the limits) - continue patching and updating until it really does look laughably outdated or gets superceded by a competing third-party product, or they could do what they have wisely chosen to do, and begin working on an improved product while they still have the time and resources.

Even though they probably started working on the new virtual world a bit late, we're still better off as a community as they have experience that other development companies don't have in maintaining a unique world. For all those that want to cling to their 5+ years old inventory, when do you ever leave? Surely it'll get harder as time gets by, the longer you stay and the more stuff you accumulate. Just hypothetically saying, if SL ran for another ten years, that will be another 10 years of stuff to your inventory, by then SL graphics would be comparable to what Quake is now.

I understand people are upset about the news, but why not give it a chance first? It could be better than you could imagine.

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:  

I may well be mistaken, but I've not yet seen anything he's said, either here or anywhere else, that suggests to me that the policy on Adult Content in SL2 will be significantly different from what it is in SL1 at the moment.     That may change over the next year or so, of course, but I'll worry about that if and when it happens.

 

I sincerely hope that your struthitis is not a terminal affliction.

"don't you wonder why sooner or later we all have to die"

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" respectable blogs"..."Second Life is archaic in terms of modern VR/Gaming/Sandbox or Entertainment"

Ah yes, so the respectable blogs are as "archaic" as SL is?

"a great leap forward"

to where exactly?

"Anyone who is building in mesh..."

We are building in mesh since two years and it has shown NO positive results in overall growth of SL. SL stalls, mesh or not. So where is the logic? Mesh solves all the problems, yes? Did it?

"Did you all complain to Sony when they ditched VHS for DVDs"

Sony ditched betacam, and not exactly for DVD. Daring comparison for an obviously so tech savy person up-to-date person as you are.

"technological development level.."

What exactly do you mean by this?

:matte-motes-yawn:

 

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Coby Foden wrote:

I dearly hope that nobody is going to import any of their hugely oversized stuff to the new BETTER world!

Nobody wants the same totally random sizing of things in the better world as in the present one.

Speak for yourself!

I'm hoarding 2-foot long OnDuty's just in case the next male avatar is a ken doll. :matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

(For innocent reasons!)

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DesperadoReprise wrote:


irihapeti wrote:

DesperadoReprise wrote:

... virtual sexual ageplay between consenting adults isn't actually illegal in any legislation I have seen.

 

where I live depictions of it are. Which is what pixellations are. Not only are the actors guilty of a criminal act by depicting sexual ageplay so are the operators of the service which enables it

 

Electronic cartoons - which is what SL is - are not illegal depictions; only if real life people are depicted might it be illegal, and even then, there is an artistic licence defence.

By your argument, ebooks of Lolita - which are textual pixellations depicting sexual age-play - would still be illegal; but then, maybe they are in some culturally backward countries.

"ain't it hard"

 

You are wrong.  Maybe not where ever you live but where i live depicting sex with children is illegal even if adults are the only ones involved, even if its only cartoons or pixels or paint or ink.  ANY visual depiction regardless of media used is illegal.  Most states in the US have similar laws.

Before you shoot your mouth off you should check your facts.

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