Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

made significant changes to the law regarding virtual child pornography.

Any realistic appearing computer generated depiction that is indistinguishable from a depiction of an actual minor

in sexual situations or engaging in sexual acts is illegal under

. Drawings, cartoons, sculptures, and paintings of minors in sexual situations that do not pass the

were made illegal under

."

Yeah, right, and SL has crossed the uncanny valley so avatars are "indistinguishable".

Get real, Drake.

Or rather, don't.

"don't you wonder why?"

Phil Deakins · June 26, 2014

Coby Foden wrote:

I dearly hope that nobody is going to import any of their hugely oversized stuff to the new BETTER world!

It will all depend on where the camera is

Vivienne Schell · June 26, 2014

"Nobody wants the same totally random sizing of things in the better world as in the present one."

SIZE MATTERS!

:matte-motes-big-grin:

Madelaine McMasters · June 26, 2014

Gavin Hird wrote:

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

If you are right, then would it be reasonable to extrapolate that SL2 cannot accept any SL1 content that wasn't completely created by the migrating resident? And even then, only after excution of a signed business to business contract?

If so, we can stop haranguing Ebbe about migration!

Remember most of this discussion was about European legislation and how exactly that will pan out in the US I am unsure of.

However, the way to fix this is to establish a developer group and set up developer and distribution agreements for all those who wants their items to be transferred. I would think this can be relatively be fixed by setting a flag or two on the items in the database and make once off tick-offs for developers who accept their creations are transferred.

This would most likely solve the need they feel they have to have that special provision in the TOS that gives them full rights to everything. of course for old stuff where the developer is no longer around, there may be some issues, but then again...

Okay, so LL creates a new class of resident called "Developer". I want to migrate my content from SL1 to SL2. To do so, I must join the developer group and then what do I do? If it's simply a matter of checking a box saying I agree to the developer TOS, how's that any different than checking it as a resident?

Is this a distinction without a difference?

I don't know what difference there might be between the US YouTube TOS and the EU YouTube TOS, but there is (as far as I can remember from reading it a year or so ago) only one significant difference between the general drift of the YouTube and SL terms here in the US. And that difference is that YouTube relinquishes any rights to your stuff if you remove it from their servers. It's been a year since I read it, but I recall wondering what happens if YouTube uses a snippet of contributor content in a marketing effort (say a "Best of" video). If the contributor removes the original, I doubt YouTube would re-edit the "Best of" video.

Law is well behind the technology curve here, so it's not surprising we have these questions.

DesperadoReprise · June 26, 2014

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

where i live depicting sex with children is illegal even if adults are the only ones involved, even if its only cartoons or pixels or paint or ink. ANY visual depiction regardless of media used is illegal. Most states in the US have similar laws.

Before you shoot your mouth off you should check your facts.

Evidence? Preferably which contradicts the PROTECT legislation which, as I have pointed out above, specifically makes such computer animations legal as long as they don't look real.

And SL avatars don't look real, however good you might think they are.

"the lawmen cleared the people"

Coby Foden · June 26, 2014

Phil Deakins wrote:

Coby Foden wrote:

I dearly hope that nobody is going to import any of their hugely oversized stuff to the new BETTER world!

It will all depend on where the camera is

Yes. Hopefully this time it will be in the right - BETTER - place. :matte-motes-big-grin:

Magnus Brody · June 26, 2014

DesperadoReprise wrote:

Magnus Brody wrote:

Although I know your very reason for continually posting here is to annoy anyone you can, it is not only annoying, but also as

innacurate

as telling me I am more dimwitted than you only because I am Scottish, to continually bang on about Ebbe communicating in English as a Second Language, particularly when your clear inference is that he struggles.

I think Ebbe is telling us as much as he can,

particualry

when it's considered that the developers are only writing the new software now, so I don't see how he can be absolutely definitive about this type of prim or that avatar axis, etc.

Just because he's as competent as you apparently are - you have obviously set your standards low enough - doesn't mean that he's fluent, or even that he knows what he's saying.

"sinking low-down"

He's back from tea break.

Fifteen famous thinkers who couldn't spell - you should try a bit of thinking.

"Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates.

At the first gate, ask yourself, "is it true?"

At the second ask, "is it necessary?"

At the third gate, "is it kind?""

Total average score < 33%

Theresa Tennyson · June 26, 2014

Vivienne, as it happens I have been renting a property based on one of your skyboxes since late 2010. In that time my landlord has replaced it with heavily updated versions that you've issued twice so far, so apparently you feel your creations become outdated in about two years already. So what's the big difference about the idea that there will be a new platform for Second Life coming in two years that will make your current products outdated? Isn't that happening already, judging from your own workflow?

kiramanell · June 26, 2014

Vivienne Schell wrote:

"Nobody wants the same totally random sizing of things in the better world as in the present one."

SIZE MATTERS!

:matte-motes-big-grin:

Double entendres aside, scaling (avatar height vs. home height, etc) has always been off in SL. Would be nice if they got it right, this time. Part of said scaling is caused by the way the camers works. Like if your ceiling is too low, your trailing camera is 'inside' the ceiling, as it were (causing builders to make homes that are relative too heigh). Maybe they'll find a better solution to that in nextgen SL.

Theresa Tennyson · June 26, 2014

DesperadoReprise wrote:

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

It most certainly is not allowed in the USA.

"In the United States, the

made significant changes to the law regarding virtual child pornography.

Any realistic appearing computer generated depiction that is indistinguishable from a depiction of an actual minor

in sexual situations or engaging in sexual acts is illegal under

. Drawings, cartoons, sculptures, and paintings of minors in sexual situations that do not pass the

were made illegal under

Fifteen famous thinkers who couldn't spell

."

Yeah, right, and SL has crossed the uncanny valley so avatars are "indistinguishable".

Get real, Drake.

Or rather, don't.

"don't you wonder why?"

U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 71 › § 1466A

18 U.S. Code § 1466A - Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children

Current through Pub. L. 113-108. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

prev | next

(a) In General.— Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that—

(1)

(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and

(B) is obscene; or

(2)

(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, **bleep**-genital, or oral-**bleep**, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and

(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;

or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A (b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

Sy Beck · June 26, 2014

Vivienne Schell wrote:

" respectable blogs"..."Second Life is archaic in terms of modern VR/Gaming/Sandbox or Entertainment"

Ah yes, so the respectable blogs are as "archaic" as SL is?

"a great leap forward"

to where exactly?

"Anyone who is building in mesh..."

We are building in mesh since two years and it has shown NO positive results in overall growth of SL. SL stalls, mesh or not. So where is the logic? Mesh solves all the problems, yes? Did it?

"Did you all complain to Sony when they ditched VHS for DVDs"

Sony ditched betacam, and not exactly for DVD. Daring comparison for an obviously so tech savy person up-to-date person as you are.

"technological development level.."

What exactly do you mean by this?

:matte-motes-yawn:

You missed

Sy Beck wrote:

I have watched this frothing from a distance on Twitter and some respectable blogs and have gone from

exasperation to belly laughing

at some of the "Sky is falling down" comments.

2/2 for you on that count - 3/3 if we count frothing too. :matte-motes-yawn:

DesperadoReprise · June 26, 2014

Sy Beck wrote:

I have watched this frothing from a distance on Twitter and some respectable blogs and have gone from exasperation to belly laughing at some of the "Sky is falling down" comments.

Second Life is archaic in terms of modern VR/Gaming/Sandbox or Entertainment and a great leap forward was needed and trying to jump the chasm with SL attached would have been like trying to jump a chasm in two steps. Anyone who is building in mesh, and if you aren't why not, should have no problem I envisage porting across their products and starting anew. To consumers who feel that they have lost out on items purchased then tough luck, that's progress. Did you all complain to Sony when they ditched VHS for DVDs or was it a case that you couldn't wait to get hold of a DVD player and play on the shiny new toy?

And for those who want backward compatibility equally read "future constraint". You sound like a person who upon hearing of the invention of the car would want it fuelled by straw and oats, capable of pulling a buggy and be steered by reins.

What does interest me is how are the other VWs going to respond. Will they stay with this tired, worn out model and look like a Stone Age VW when LL's new platform is released or will they compete with LL at the same technological development level on what will be virgin ground with LL having done most of the groundwork and problem solving?

Sy, the main problem is not the technical platform for Sanitised Life; it is that creators/vendors are going to be bankrupted prior to any migration because their customers - as they discover that there are no guarantees that anything they purchase from now on will be of any value in a very short time - are going to stop buying. They have already, if several reports are to be believed, and why should they not be.

The knock-on effect of this on the existing SL economy will be massive, as will be the consequences for LL's ability to fund the development of Sanitised Life. Any business plan (although somehow I doubt if one exists as yet) would have to be based on the redirection of existing profits from maintenance and V1 enhancement to V2 resources. But the profits, as explained, aren't going to be sustained, and by letting the cat out of the bag this early Ebbe has shot himself in the foot, because the Board are going to have to go running to third parties for money. And who is going to be interested? Nobody has been in the past five years, and every other attempt to offer a "better sl" has been a short-term commercial disaster

Of course creators are looking for reassurances that they might be able to bridge the trading gap technically, and many will be doing their utmost to try to bolster market confidence by offering unfounded assurances to customers.

I know that SL users are not known for their collective intelligence, but I don't think they are going to be taken in by the tepid and unprepared bluster currently issuing from an obviously disturbed - and apparently isolated - CEO.

Bottom line? I don't think SL is going to last long enough to support the development period of Sanitised Life. And the CEO certainly isn't.

"all you blood-thirsty bystanders, will you try to find your seats"

DesperadoReprise · June 26, 2014

Magnus Brody wrote:

DesperadoReprise wrote:

Magnus Brody wrote:

Although I know your very reason for continually posting here is to annoy anyone you can, it is not only annoying, but also as

innacurate

as telling me I am more dimwitted than you only because I am Scottish, to continually bang on about Ebbe communicating in English as a Second Language, particularly when your clear inference is that he struggles.

I think Ebbe is telling us as much as he can,

particualry

when it's considered that the developers are only writing the new software now, so I don't see how he can be absolutely definitive about this type of prim or that avatar axis, etc.

Just because he's as competent as you apparently are - you have obviously set your standards low enough - doesn't mean that he's fluent, or even that he knows what he's saying.

"sinking low-down"

He's back from tea break.

- you should try a bit of thinking.

"Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates.

At the first gate, ask yourself, "is it true?"

At the second ask, "is it necessary?"

At the third gate, "is it kind?""

Total average score < 33%

I'm more than happy with a 100% success on the first gate.

I will leave the other criteria to the Ladies Who Lunch - of any gender.

"don't you wonder why?"

Coby Foden · June 26, 2014

DesperadoReprise wrote:

Magnus Brody wrote:

Although I know your very reason for continually posting here is to annoy anyone you can, it is not only annoying, but also as

innacurate

as telling me I am more dimwitted than you only because I am Scottish, to continually bang on about Ebbe communicating in English as a Second Language, particularly when your clear inference is that he struggles.

I think Ebbe is telling us as much as he can,

particualry

when it's considered that the developers are only writing the new software now, so I don't see how he can be absolutely definitive about this type of prim or that avatar axis, etc.

Just because he's as competent as you apparently are - you have obviously set your standards low enough - doesn't mean that he's fluent, or even that he knows what he's saying.

"sinking low-down"

This clearly shows that correct spelling in English language does not matter very much. :smileyindifferent:

Vivienne Schell · June 26, 2014

"scaling (avatar height vs. home height, etc) has always been off in SL"

RL scaling is pretty much off in any kind of 3D world. And even in 2D photography scaling by meters and centimeters is irrelevant. And I guess as long as there is a third person camera view scaling will be off. Could be set into relation to RL scaling by "mouselook" exclusively, probably. Probably, not likely. In the end it´s always a matter of perspective. You simply can´t have the real Eiffel Tower in a 3D environment, only an abstract model and your brain always will recognise it as abstraction.

In regards to the second life screenshot above: The two people sitting there seem to feel comfortable in this piece of puffy pixels. If they would not, what was their motivation to rez it? Or (OMG!) spend money on it?

JohnSynclair · June 26, 2014

When I first heard the news, a few days ago I had a mixture of excitement that a new Virtual World was on the way, and one built by the Lab. Like it or not, Linden Lab has been supportive of Virtual Worlds from the start and are amongst the few companies that have made it their living.

My initial response was scepticism. How will this work? Will my existing computer be able to handle the new stuff? Will my Broadband be capable of handling the extra data? All the "domestic" things that go through the minds of "ordinary residents".

Then there was fear. Fear that all my inventory, built up over the past 6 or so years will disappear. Fear that my "learning curve" on SL (which is not the easiest of things to learn) would have to begin all over again. Fear that I would be a "newbie" again, having no inventory, no Linden Dollars, no experience with the new building tools so that I would feel like i did when I first joined SL.

Fears about what it will be like. Will it be like SL in that it will have green land, beaches, landscapes and all the things that I love about SL or will it be some nebulous thing where on region is like earth and stepping onto another region is like teleporting to Mars or Saturn? Will creators be able to adulterate the land so that there is no consistency or continuity? Will everything be in the sky, as much of SL is at the moment? Will I be able to explore like I do on SL or will it be mainly private regions with no mainland to speak of? All things that "normal residents" consider when using SL and all things that drew me in to SL in the first place.

Then came the concerns about my own creations, not that I could be called a "creator" as such but I have made stuff in SL that I cherish because I made them and they are my own creations. Yes, I still have stuff that I bought or made in the first few months on SL and I still use them. I was concerned for sentimental reasons as much as anything else. Will prims I made here be transferable to the new world? Will scripts work or, since I'm not a scriptor, will I have to buy new ones? Will my skins, shapes and system clothing that I have made be available or uploadable to the new world? Will the new world avatar even be the same; attachment points, joints, structure. Even if my mesh creations are tranferable or uploadable to the new world, will they fit the new avatar? Will the attachment points and skeletal structure of the new avatar be so different that I will need to make or buy new ones? All domestic fears about having to "start again from scratch".

Then there was the realisation that I was basing all my fears and concerns on things that had not even been hinted at, much less stated by Ebby or the Lab. I began to think... what have we been told? We have been told that Linden Lab are developing a new virtual world that will utilise modern technologies better than SL does. We have been told that it will have better inworld capabilities than SL has because current SL technologies are somewhat old and out dated and a new platform, build from the ground up will enable better and easier inworld creation. What does that mean to me? I don't know. I look forward to finding that out when I can eventually enter the new world and experience it for myself.

The initial disappointment that I felt at what some think is the "beginning of the end" of SL as we know it was based on nothing. Nothing I have heard, nothing I have been told and nothing that has been implied by Ebby or the Lab itself. SL will continue. The new world will be developed, go online and be tested. Some will love it, others will hate it. SL will continue and those who choose can stay there.

Then there's the worry that eventually all things must end and that one day the Lab will simply "shut down" SL. I doubt very much that it would happen in that way. The statistics of users on both worlds will, I'm assuming, be available for all to see and it will be evident long before it gets critical that things are going to change. We will have plenty of notice before that happens, if indeed it does! Notice to tell our friends and meet with them elsewhere, whether that be the new Linden world or somewhere else.

Do we really believe that Linden Lab hates us all? Do we really believe that they couldn't care less about their customers? That they are deliberately ignoring our requests, complaints, worries and concerns? It would be a very strange company that neglects its customers to that extent and any company that does so is doomed to fail. Linden Lab has been around since the 1990's and SL for 11 years, so I see evidence that they are doing something right here, otherwise they would have gone bye-bye years ago. I see no sinister plot here. No devious plans to "force" a new virtual world upon us.

What I see is a company that has created an environment that has fostered and encourage self-development of its users. One that has developed its technologies to enable creative input from hundreds of thousands of "ordinary people". Not just the technically minded, not just the artistic, not just the professionals but everyone. I see a virtual world that has evolved, because of its users into a diverse and innovative place with everything from BDSM clubs to childrens' playgrounds. Everything from sci-fi regions to Pagan countryside. Everything from Slave roleplay to support groups.

Will a new world be able to compete with that? I doubt it. It could not compete with such an established world. No. It can only succeed such a world and can only do so with the support of those innovators, users, support workers, creators, lovers, kids, furries, tinies... you name it. Without support from them, any such venture is doomed to fail. Even the best technologies are just that - technologies. The SL world is much more than the technologies that enable it to exist. It is deep within the people who live there.

So, what about my fears over my creations and purchases being lost? Don't I care about that? Don't I care about the existing land owners, creators, animators, scriptors, sculptors, builders and entertainers?

Let me put it this way...

I go back some time in computing. My first computer was a Synclair Z80. I did a lot of programming on that, making little games and gizmos that were all limited by what the computer could do. The technology held me back. Then I moved up to other computers... Synclair Spectrum... Amiga... 386... 486... Pentium, 8Bit... 16Bit... 64Bit... using various operating systems along the way, all with their own limitations. When one couldn't do what I wanted, I'd move up. Technologies come down in price, fortunately, so I might not have been amongst the first to move up, but I did move up and enjoyed the experience. The cash I had invested was well worth it. The experiences I had are still there with me. But the technologies change and I changed with them. Had I said back then "OMG! I can't move on because my stuff won't work and I'll have to start again", I would still be be playing Pong and Superfrog. I would have stagnated. As difficult as it was to give up some of the old stuff, it was necessary for me to advance my own experience and move on.

Reading through this thread, I can see that some are in a panic, some in a flat spin wondering how they will manage in the future, whether it is even worth investing in the present because it will be gone one day. I understand. I'm not a wealthy person myself and know about having to start over. But that's not what we are being asked to do here. SL is continuing and, even when the time comes when it must end, it will not mean a complete new start. Some inventory will be transferable to the new world. Some won't, though and IMHO it may have been better to wait a while before announcing the new world until it is better known what will and what won't be compatible. But telle est la vie and what is said is said. I'm confident that when more is known on the compatibility issues, we will be told.

We have been told that mesh will probably be compatible, prims will work differently and that sculpties will probably have to be converted to mesh. That indicates, to me, that the new world will be largely mesh-based. I hope, then, that the problems we see in SL with mesh not rezzing properly, half-rezzing or being half-transparent will be addressed in the new world, otherwise it simply will not be attractive. The problems we have with "fitted mesh" or "liquid mesh" are even greater and I am reluctant to even buy such objects at the moment, much less invest time learning to create them. In a new world, where it works, I may be more inclined to pursue such and learn more. At the moment, as SL is today, I have no incentive.

The new economy will be based on Linden Dollars, as I read earlier in this thread. Good. However, how that economy is managed from the start is important not only for those who have lots but also for those who have little. I'm sure that lots of us can remember property trolls who went out and bought up huge swathes of SL only to sell it on at exorbitant prices that drove all but the rich out of the SL property market. But I get ahead of myself. The simple fact is that nobody knows what the future will hold but one thing we can be sure of is that the future will be different from the past and present.

For the current designers, creators, builders and innovators in SL, I think it will be a good thing to have a whole new world to develop. Especially, as has been alluded to in this thread, that you can take compatible inventory and your Linden Dollar balance with you. Just think of it as an extension to Secondlife, rather than a Nemesis.

I'm quite upbeat about the new world. I'm upbeat about SL, too. Both can work. Both will work if we allow them to. Don't pine for a past where some have done little but complain and moan that "it isn't good enough". Those same people who are not prepared to go into a future but would prefer to throw their toys out of the pram and give up. If my car is too small for my family, I can either sit and moan about it, blame the manufacturer, blame my wife for having too many kids, blame myself for not thinking ahead... or I can buy a bigger one! Moaning is a lifestyle choice. Future thinking is a lifetime necessity.

DesperadoReprise · June 26, 2014

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

DesperadoReprise wrote:

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

It most certainly is not allowed in the USA.

"In the United States, the

made significant changes to the law regarding virtual child pornography.

Any realistic appearing computer generated depiction that is indistinguishable from a depiction of an actual minor

in sexual situations or engaging in sexual acts is illegal under

. Drawings, cartoons, sculptures, and paintings of minors in sexual situations that do not pass the

were made illegal under

Public Laws for the current Congress

."

Yeah, right, and SL has crossed the uncanny valley so avatars are "indistinguishable".

Get real, Drake.

Or rather, don't.

"don't you wonder why?"

›

›

›

› § 1466A

18 U.S. Code § 1466A - Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children

Current through Pub. L.

113-108

. (See

.)

In General.—

Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind,

including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting

, that—

(1)

(A)

depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and

(B)

is obscene; or

(2)

(A)

depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, **bleep**-genital, or oral-**bleep**, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and

(B)

lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;

or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section

2252A

(b)(1)

, including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

As stated, the Miller Test applies

Which means that none of the above is necessarily illegal, just a matter of taste. Which varies.

As an aside, it's interesting that the US Legislature has the same inability to cope with the concept of "community" as the inhabitants of SL, with the corresponding ambiguity of application of attempted disciplinary measures.

"that's a stone-cold fact"

DesperadoReprise · June 26, 2014

Coby Foden wrote:

DesperadoReprise wrote:

Magnus Brody wrote:

Although I know your very reason for continually posting here is to annoy anyone you can, it is not only annoying, but also as

innacurate

as telling me I am more dimwitted than you only because I am Scottish, to continually bang on about Ebbe communicating in English as a Second Language, particularly when your clear inference is that he struggles.

I think Ebbe is telling us as much as he can,

particualry

when it's considered that the developers are only writing the new software now, so I don't see how he can be absolutely definitive about this type of prim or that avatar axis, etc.

Just because he's as competent as you apparently are - you have obviously set your standards low enough - doesn't mean that he's fluent, or even that he knows what he's saying.

"sinking low-down"

This clearly shows that correct spelling in English language does now matter very much. :smileyindifferent:

FIFY!

But you'll have to look carefully, and admit that a single incorrect letter can completely reverse the meaning of the whole of the text that it applies to.

"turned the tables"

PS The research was specific to a cadre of individuals who had been taught to read English using a specific "look and say" method; those who had learned English using a letter-orientated approach struggled; French readers struggled even more because of the preponderance of similar word -endings, and those using Arabic and Eastern graphology systems were completely at sea. It demonstrated that once again, English outperformed other languages in being flexible enough to accommodate users of a low-level of competence, albeit at the expense of a certain degree of ambiguity of understanding, while offering experts the ability to present complex concepts in a coherent fashion.

Phoebe Avro · June 26, 2014

If you can read that without thinking about it your brain runs 50% faster than those that can't

LaskyaClaren · June 26, 2014

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

DesperadoReprise wrote:

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

It most certainly is not allowed in the USA.

"In the United States, the

made significant changes to the law regarding virtual child pornography.

Any realistic appearing computer generated depiction that is indistinguishable from a depiction of an actual minor

in sexual situations or engaging in sexual acts is illegal under

. Drawings, cartoons, sculptures, and paintings of minors in sexual situations that do not pass the

were made illegal under