Sims tracking your IP adress and with it no longer allowing alts. Is this legal?

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Still then, there is an issue. Let me explain with an example: 2 or 3 room mates have each their own pc/laptop linked to 1 router, each with their own credentials of which each other don't know those. The IP address that stream is getting is the one of the router, not of the individual pc's nor the users. So, you are saying that a land owner is able to ban all 2 or 3 users, if only one of the users is breaching the rules of particular land/property? Not even Linden Lab can enforce such action, coz it would exclude the one or two to gain access to Second Life on the fact that they can't determine who of the 2 or 3 has violated the TOS and/or ROC. And still, what with routers with a hardware firewall that hides the IP. 

You keep saying router when you should be saying modem.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Where say it that they are allowed to do so or this is one of their perks. Official statement of Linden Labs in this matter, that's I wanna see. Not an assumption, hearsay or gossip.

You asked.

Quote

You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Virtual Land must be consistent with the Agreements, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify the Agreements.

You acknowledge that Virtual Land is a limited license right and is not a real property right or actual real estate, and it is not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab. You acknowledge that the use of the words "Buy," "Sell" and similar terms carry the same meaning of referring to the transfer of the Virtual Land License as they do with respect to the Linden Dollar License. You agree that Linden Lab has the right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Virtual Land as it sees fit and that Linden Lab shall have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right. Linden Lab makes no guarantee as to the nature of the features of Second Life that will be accessible through the use of Virtual Land, or the availability or supply of Virtual Land.

 

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No, it's ShoutCast as well. Just ask any renter of a ShoutCast stream

I don't need to ask. I live with someone in RL who not only has worked as a DJ in RL radio stations, he also DJs in SL. He's only been DJing in SL for over 15 years.

[Prokofy Neva]

18 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I don't need to ask. I live with someone in RL who not only has worked as a DJ in RL radio stations, he also DJs in SL. He's only been DJing in SL for over 15 years.

The reason you can make a ban list and there is a ban list file is because you can see the IP addresses.

https://help.shoutcast.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003673933-Shoutcast-Server-Configuration-Advanced-

[Silent Mistwalker]

18 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The reason you can make a ban list and there is a ban list file is because you can see the IP addresses.

https://help.shoutcast.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003673933-Shoutcast-Server-Configuration-Advanced-

Back when people first started DJing in SL most of the DJs used SAM, not Shoutcast.

[Ezbeharra]

7 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

This is how you'd want your Media set up to be the most secure...

This is absolutely true and I am not disagreeing with you. Everyone should do this.

But I am going to point out, just for the purpose of encouraging mutual understanding, that it is extremely easy in an annoying sort of way to enable these settings and forget about it, because a certain very popular body maker whose body I admittedly chose to wear decided to require media for certain parts of their absolutely atrocious HUD, not only in the expensive version that I have but in the free version that a lot of clueless newbies get for themselves.

So it's kind of crappy that it can be taken advantage of. I have forgotten to switch it back numerous times even though I know better, and plenty of people don't know better at all. It kind of sucks that this is an all or nothing choice, and that a certain body maker continues this stupid and harmful practice. I don't know the technical feasibility of it, but it would be very nice if media could be allowed only for one's own attachments, to prevent people who want a really nice butt from forgetting to turn off the thing that allows any random object near them to phone their IP address to some jerkwad.

[Dorientje Woller]

5 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Virtual Land must be consistent with the Agreements, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify the Agreements.

Where in that slab of text has Linden Lab mentioned that allows land/property owners to ban on IP. Read the text yourself. Yes, for the second time, I do agree that we as onwers are allowed to ban users on or lands/properties and that we the right to determine that on our own set of rules. No where is it giving or mentioned it the answer to the question of the OP or the one I have asked: Are they allowed to use IP tracking to ban people from their lands/properties. Oh, for those who are saying that I should use the word modem instead of router: happens that in my country, the ISP isn't using/handing/renting a modem to their customers, but a combined modem/router device, which is called a router.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Dorientje Woller

[Rowan Amore]

For the last time, YES they can use IP addresses to ban people from their land.  If they were not, it would be explicitly said that they could not.  LL knows full well that your IP address is exposed if you have media on which is why there are extra options to not have it play automatically if this is a concern for you which is why it says ' increased security'.   Everyone has told you this.  Believe it or don't.

[PekeNL]

Why are we even discussing this? If you get banned their intention is to keep you out. If you then try and circumvent said ban by alternate accounts, you´re setting yourself up for failure. IP/MAC banning is the only surefire way to make sure a ban stays in effect.

A lot of other online platforms would count this as ´ban evasion´. And don´t give me the privacy argument because that is rendered void as most of you probably run google chrome, use this forum and probably have a android/apple phone in your daily lives and use google maps.

The entire argument about IP tracking specifically on second life is nothing more but a hollow argument unless you went out of your way to completely erase all sorts of digital tracking out your life.

[Aethelwine]

7 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Back when people first started DJing in SL most of the DJs used SAM, not Shoutcast.

Sam is a program that DJs use to play and broadcast their music to a service provider that then broadcasts to the listeners. Shoutcast, like Icecast, or Icecast-KH are the software that is used at the server end that handles the broadcasting to listeners.

People DJing in Sl are quite likely to be using both Sam and Shoutcast. It isn't an either or situation.  

Edited January 27, 2023 by Aethelwine

[Nick0678]

On 1/25/2023 at 3:14 AM, Bold Burner said:

So I tried to go there on an alt... but even my alt was banned...... so... does this mean they tracked my IP address and is that even legal? 

The Region Owner/Manager doesn't have your IP  address.

When an Estate Manager bans your avatar from a region the server will log your username + your IP address.

If you want to visit that region with an Alt account you should use a different IP.

If you try to visit that region with the new IP using the banned avatar this IP will be blacklisted too.

[belindacarson]

23 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

The Region Owner/Manager doesn't have your IP  address.

When an Estate Manager bans your avatar from a region the server will log your username + your IP address.

If you want to visit that region with an Alt account you should use a different IP.

If you try to visit that region with the new IP using the banned avatar this IP will be blacklisted too.

It's not IP Bans, LL don't use IP Bans, it's based on your hardware configuration.

[Ceka Cianci]

7 hours ago, Ezbeharra said:

This is absolutely true and I am not disagreeing with you. Everyone should do this.

But I am going to point out, just for the purpose of encouraging mutual understanding, that it is extremely easy in an annoying sort of way to enable these settings and forget about it, because a certain very popular body maker whose body I admittedly chose to wear decided to require media for certain parts of their absolutely atrocious HUD, not only in the expensive version that I have but in the free version that a lot of clueless newbies get for themselves.

So it's kind of crappy that it can be taken advantage of. I have forgotten to switch it back numerous times even though I know better, and plenty of people don't know better at all. It kind of sucks that this is an all or nothing choice, and that a certain body maker continues this stupid and harmful practice. I don't know the technical feasibility of it, but it would be very nice if media could be allowed only for one's own attachments, to prevent people who want a really nice butt from forgetting to turn off the thing that allows any random object near them to phone their IP address to some jerkwad.

Did you update to the latest release of the body? They have key commands now for a lot of the things you needed media for with that body, so you don't need to turn that on anymore..

plus you only needed it for the middle tab in the hud. you could always set your body up with the nail lengths and applier things and bom and then save the body and use third party things.. the other two tabs didn't require media.

I think they finally got the hint about the media thing and finally did something about it..

[Qie Niangao]

11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Unless they are using a device within SL that enables banning by IP. I don't know why we all keep having to have this very old and tired debate. 

The problem is rooted in the Lindens' early decision to solve governance problems by code, not law.

I don't disagree with the second point, but my point in the post to which you responded was "a device within SL that enables banning by IP" can only use IP addresses exposed to that device, and there are really only certain specific ways to expose an address to a device within SL. If an alt has never done any of those things anywhere on the grid, its IP address won't be knowable to any devices within SL. 

You know this, Prokofy, but some may not: The fact the sim uses the viewer's IP address to make the world work does not make it possible for a device in SL to obtain that address.

There are venues that argue they should have devices that ban by IP because they tire of chasing griefer alts. The Lab hasn't enabled IP banning by residents and won't change the sims to expose addresses for use by such devices, so instead those venues use devices that trick or extort users into revealing the addresses themselves.

So that's your second point: If governance problems were addressed more effectively, the clamor for IP-address-based bans wouldn't arise.

[Ceka Cianci]

6 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Where in that slab of text has Linden Lab mentioned that allows land/property owners to ban on IP. Read the text yourself. Yes, for the second time, I do agree that we as onwers are allowed to ban users on or lands/properties and that we the right to determine that on our own set of rules. No where is it giving or mentioned it the answer to the question of the OP or the one I have asked: Are they allowed to use IP tracking to ban people from their lands/properties. Oh, for those who are saying that I should use the word modem instead of router: happens that in my country, the ISP isn't using/handing/renting a modem to their customers, but a combined modem/router device, which is called a router.

You can use network banning systems as long as they comply with the TOS and community standards..Which has a lot to do with not sharing the information with others or connecting accounts together to expose account information like , this person also has these alts.

The only way you are going to end up on one of those is by having your media or music streaming on or by clicking a link in something like a sploder asking some sort of permission to get it.. Pretty much giving them permission to see your IP.

They can ban someone not only from their land, but also ban them from anyone's land that is using the system network.

It's not really tracking, but gathering since a user is going to where the systems are and putting the information out there.

You probably won't find anything where it say's land owners can do this or that when it comes to IP's, but you will find  that those are information and they do go over sharing information with 3rd parties..

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Ezbeharra]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Did you update to the latest release of the body? They have key commands now for a lot of the things you needed media for with that body, so you don't need to turn that on anymore..

plus you only needed it for the middle tab in the hud. you could always set your body up with the nail lengths and applier things and bom and then save the body and use third party things.. the other two tabs didn't require media.

I think they finally got the hint about the media thing and finally did something about it..

Yes, it's definitely better now than it was, but I only have third party fingernails because I'm cheap. Toenails still require the Styles tab and I'm horribly absent minded, so once in a while I find myself running around with media enabled.

[Ceka Cianci]

10 minutes ago, Ezbeharra said:

Yes, it's definitely better now than it was, but I only have third party fingernails because I'm cheap. Toenails still require the Styles tab and I'm horribly absent minded, so once in a while I find myself running around with media enabled.

I haven't looked at what they key commands are for that middle tab section of the hud. But it's nice to not have to have media on to get to those things now.  I guess I should give them a try for a little bit just to see.. I  really just grabbed the update and didn't mess with it too much..

ETA: I just gave a look and this is what all  they are.. it was nice getting to bom by just copy and paste into chat.

LOCAL CHAT COMMANDS
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Voiced by the community, you can now easily access certain features of the body by typing these commands into local chat.

/1meshbody heart on
/1meshbody heart off

/1meshbody toenails on
/1meshbody toenails off

/1meshbody fingernails on
/1meshbody fingernails off

/1meshbody bom on
/1meshbody bom off

/1meshbody reset
/1meshbody delete scripts

/1meshbody clear layer 1
/1meshbody clear layer 2
/1meshbody clear layer 3
/1meshbody clear layer 4

/1meshbody clear socks
/1meshbody clear gloves
/1meshbody clear neckfade

/1meshbody toggle layer 1
/1meshbody toggle layer 2
/1meshbody toggle layer 3
/1meshbody toggle layer 4

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Ezbeharra]

Yes, I have the update and have used these, even set up gestures for some of them so I don't have to type out /1meshbody yadayada, but painting your toenails still requires the dang styles tab. Definitely the one thing that felt like a downgrade from my old Tonic body when I switched to Legacy a few months ago. It's something I enjoyed and now I don't do it nearly as much as I used to.

[Quartz Mole]

I think the discussion is going off the rails rather, and that any further discussion of mesh bodies should take place in a more appropriate place.

[Prokofy Neva]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I don't disagree with the second point, but my point in the post to which you responded was "a device within SL that enables banning by IP" can only use IP addresses exposed to that device, and there are really only certain specific ways to expose an address to a device within SL. If an alt has never done any of those things anywhere on the grid, its IP address won't be knowable to any devices within SL. 

You know this, Prokofy, but some may not: The fact the sim uses the viewer's IP address to make the world work does not make it possible for a device in SL to obtain that address.

There are venues that argue they should have devices that ban by IP because they tire of chasing griefer alts. The Lab hasn't enabled IP banning by residents and won't change the sims to expose addresses for use by such devices, so instead those venues use devices that trick or extort users into revealing the addresses themselves.

So that's your second point: If governance problems were addressed more effectively, the clamor for IP-address-based bans wouldn't arise.

I'm not convinced that blocking streaming then cloaks you from an IP address grab. Your IP address is needed to log into SL and go from sim to sim.

If my Premium Plus status which I don't see visible on my profile is now visible to certain web sites because of LSL I didn't know about, can I be sure my IP isn't visible to Shoutcast or any other device, even if I block streaming? On the Mainland, I generally keep streaming blocked because of the cacophony of streams on many parcccels.

There is argument here about *islands* being able essentially ban IP addresses, or "that's how it works server side anyways". Yes or no? There has always been this haze over that issue, as estate owners often complain that they try to ban people and it doesn't work.

I don't see what the "trick" is. They have streaming on. They come to a concert to hear music and they are captured. Let's say the venue is a club. The owner has doubts about someone; he invites them in after hours, grabs their IP while the two are alone on the sim. Then the alts' parade comes, he can see they are alts by the time of arrival.

How could Governance be addressed more effectively:

Answer: ban anonymizer sites and Tor and any other VPN.

The Lindens and their boosters always object that vulnerable populations who need to use Tor or anonymizers of any kind -- let's say victims of domestic violence, or citizens of Iran or Russia or transgender people -- could be harmed by not being able to cloak their location from predators and aggressive state security.

But if we just take Iran or even Russia, this is a fairly tiny population. They don't all use anonymizers, in fact. Some log on from work where the computers and hook-up are better; some from home if they have decent Internet service, or from a cafe, where they are anonymized anyway. The other population of vulnerable people is larger and can be a significant percentage of a community like SL. Do they all use anonymizers? If they were all shut down tomorrow, would the population really suffer? And you can't go by just what forums-dwellers say, they aren't representative.

Can LL block anonymizers, mainly used for griefing and theft and not protection from RL violence, but then provide for exceptions if payment is on file? Or people register in some way?

I actually think none of this quandary needs to be parsed. Everyone knows that griefers rely on groups. The new alts spawn and join the groups to get the stash of griefer prims and scripts. The Lindens never attack groups. That's where they should start. They should shut down groups clearly designed to use Firestorm to copybot or to scatter obnoxious obelisks over the grid. In RL, you have to prove conspiracy and other factors to determine a group or organization is criminal in a US court of law -- the threshold is high, which is why obvious mafia dons remain walking around.

But the State Department declares groups abroad as criminal or terrorist all the time based on suspicious indicators, not on a ruling by any court; recently they declared Wagner PMC in Russia as a criminal and terrorist group guilty of summary execution of Ukrainians and even their own fighters.

So by that analogy, which isn't going to always meet a fierce Supreme Court jurisdiction test, the Lindens -- who are free to do things for any reason or no reason under the TOS we all signed -- need to shut down groups. They also need to remove griefing content from all inventories globally. I once sent to Patch a list of all the object IDs used to grief me -- creepy, battered effigies of my RL self; weird RL puppets; boxes that spewed hate textures like particles; copybotted items from my builders like a picnic table, etc. Now somehow, who knows how, the griefers got word of that request and then simply renamed all the objects or re-rezzed them to get a new ID. The Lindens can surely see through that and delete the next round of junk. They can put watches on certain suspects *like they did on me by their own admission, tracking my speech and transactions in world*. 

Yes, it's staff work. But the concurrency is low, the number of sims with suspicious activity isn't high and the number of griefer groups isn't high. If I can find out and ban alts and simply delete griefer objects, so can they -- more systematically by deleting groups. It might require a TOS change that indicates that TOS offenses done by group have a more severe penalty, to incentivize people who value their groups not to let their members become miscreants. 

The other thing to do is to restore the police blotter. Ideally, they would put the name of the reporter and the name of the person sentenced just as in a RL court. And why not? If they cannot control their grid such as to prevent reprisals against plaintiffs, they don't have a grid, you know? And this isn't that hard. I make lists of people I will never rent to again because they violated my rules repeatedly or the TOS; then I don't rent to the again, it's not rocket science.

The police blotter, in the old days, was partial; amazingly, with all the griefing of my Sutherland Dam Discussion Group that went on as you may recall, in that entire time of numerous bombardments from groups dancing around on Linden roads nearby as a safe haven, there was only one police blotter against me, for "disclosure". LOL. By pasting into chat the threats someone made against me, which he reported and got to stick as "disclosure".

I think we have Lindens operate in better faith today; in those days among the griefers was one Linden on an alt who is no longer on staff. The old police blotter showed most of the crimes occurred in sandboxes. I don't think they would show that now; I find the sandboxes nearly empty and I go to them nearly daily; the places of crime are clubs and events where griefers can get attention, but not only. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Where in that slab of text has Linden Lab mentioned that allows land/property owners to ban on IP. Read the text yourself. Yes, for the second time, I do agree that we as onwers are allowed to ban users on or lands/properties and that we the right to determine that on our own set of rules. No where is it giving or mentioned it the answer to the question of the OP or the one I have asked: Are they allowed to use IP tracking to ban people from their lands/properties. Oh, for those who are saying that I should use the word modem instead of router: happens that in my country, the ISP isn't using/handing/renting a modem to their customers, but a combined modem/router device, which is called a router.

I emphazied what it said in red just for you. I've read the text many many times over the past 18 years. It's not on me that English isn't your native language.

I'm not interested in slinging poo and nothing you sling at me is going to stick. Immediately after the red part is the part that says landowners do have to stay within the bounds of the TOS:

Quote

Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Virtual Land must be consistent with the Agreements, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify the Agreements.

Nowhere in the TOS does it state IPs cannot be used to ban. It DOES say your agreement to allow or disallow others on your land cannot violate LL's TOS agreement.

If you only have one computer going online, you do not need a router. You do need a modem to go online. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

Sam is a program that DJs use to play and broadcast their music to a service provider that then broadcasts to the listeners. Shoutcast, like Icecast, or Icecast-KH are the software that is used at the server end that handles the broadcasting to listeners.

People DJing in Sl are quite likely to be using both Sam and Shoutcast. It isn't an either or situation.  

I never said it was an either/or situation. 

I never said Shoutcast or comparable wasn't needed in conjunction with SAM.

There was a time when I didn't even believe HIM that he could see IPs until he showed it to me on his screen while DJing.

Next people will be trying to tell me most DJs didn't use SAM back in the day when that is what I said to begin with. Not once did I ever say I was referring to what they use NOW. I even used the expression "first started" meaning "in the past".

Just more evidence that most people don't really read, they just skim and then miss all the important tiny details.

 

[Toothless Draegonne]

If you're banned, you're not wanted there. Why do you want to go where you're not wanted?

If they're using scary IP-tracking to find your alts and ban them too, don't go there. Why would you want to go there?

And who cares about the difference between modem and router?

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Ip banning long duration is useless,   cmd>ipconfig/release /renew  or restart my router.   new ip. no more ban.   I know LL uses hardware banning too, but just talking in general.

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I'm not convinced that blocking streaming then cloaks you from an IP address grab. Your IP address is needed to log into SL and go from sim to sim.

If my Premium Plus status which I don't see visible on my profile is now visible to certain web sites because of LSL I didn't know about, can I be sure my IP isn't visible to Shoutcast or any other device, even if I block streaming? On the Mainland, I generally keep streaming blocked because of the cacophony of streams on many parcccels.

There is argument here about *islands* being able essentially ban IP addresses, or "that's how it works server side anyways". Yes or no? There has always been this haze over that issue, as estate owners often complain that they try to ban people and it doesn't work.

I don't see what the "trick" is. They have streaming on. They come to a concert to hear music and they are captured. Let's say the venue is a club. The owner has doubts about someone; he invites them in after hours, grabs their IP while the two are alone on the sim. Then the alts' parade comes, he can see they are alts by the time of arrival.

It's true that sims absolutely need to know the IP addresses of viewers connected to them, so if we're entertaining all possible exploits then sure: there's simply no way to provide the SL service without it knowing what addresses it's serving, and theoretically there could be some secret bug that leaks IP addresses if some device can trigger such a bug. But I don't see cause to concoct such hypotheticals when there are so many ways we know IP addresses can be revealed in just a single moment of distraction. (That includes allowing a dialog-requested URL to open in a browser, where that URL is to an external server, for example, in addition to all the streaming stuff in this thread.)

But you seem to be raising a more specific possibility that the fact streaming is available on a parcel (or offered on MoaP, etc) could be enough to reveal a viewer's address to the stream server ("or any other device") even if streaming is blocked on that viewer. That's a different hypothetical, this time involving a secret bug in the viewer. I really doubt such a sneak path exists, but personally I've neither looked at the viewer source nor monitored network traffic that would necessarily reveal such a bug, and only hope somebody else does that sort of thing.

The part "about *islands* being able essentially ban IP addresses" seems to be an intentional but temporary effect of an Estate ban; I'm not sure anyone outside the Lab knows for sure whether it really uses the IP address or instead the hardware MAC address (normally mapped to each other one-for-one for the duration of an address assignment) or to other signatures knowable to a viewer running on that machine. (But the fact the Lab can make that happen doesn't mean anybody else can do it.)

I do think using streaming to collect IP addresses for any purpose other than providing the stream is a "trick" and should be grounds for real world prosecution, exactly as unauthorized use of a computing resource is subject to prosecution. But it's not, it's not even a violation of the Lab's rules, and it would be practically unenforceable anyway. Meanwhile, regarding the "informed consent" one of these sploder contraptions uses to get ("extort") users to agree to share their IP addresses in exchange for god only knows what useless trinkets, I guess the most we can ever do about that is try to shame the right upstanding carnival barker behind that system.