Sims tracking your IP adress and with it no longer allowing alts. Is this legal?

[Rowan Amore]

39 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

That's the issue, the IP's of the listeners that are tuned in to a rented stream are not public, only the renter can see them as you need login and password to gain access to that information. I am currently testing what you're saying, booted up my dj software, activated the stream, entered the stream link into VLC mediaplayer and only I and you will get is the track info. No IP addresses of listeners are shown. You as user, whether it's as listener, owner of land that is using my stream in it's media tools (land stream/shoutcast board) has no access to IP info of the listeners, that is behind my login and password wall.

That's what she's been saying the DJ has access to Listener's IP addresses.  No one else has that info.  

[Dorientje Woller]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

That's what she's been saying the DJ has access to Listener's IP addresses.  No one else has that info.  

That was my question, in a situation like this, how can land owners ban on an IP address, send between a shoutcast server and stream, when the stream isn't theirs. More and more clubs/open stages are demanding that their dj's/performers have their own rented stream. That's why I also said, assumed that there is a confussion between public IP's and private IP's in this case.

[Casper Warden]

2 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

The dress did have a HUD and doing some sleuthing I discovered it was calling home. 

A HUD calling home can't reveal your IP address. Scripts operate from the region's IP address.

The only way a scripted device can get your IP address is via targeted media, i.e they tell your viewer to access media at a certain personalised URL, which binds your IP address to your avatar key.  This is how RedZone operated before it was yeeted from the grid.

Use the Media Filter built into your viewer. Don't accept media requests that you don't recognise. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Casper Warden

[Casper Warden]

Parcel audio isn't commonly used as an attack vector for this. While it's possible to get a user's IP address in this manner,  the parcel audio URL can't be customised for each individual avatar, it gets sent to everyone on the parcel, so it's harder to accurately link avatars to IP addresses.

[shireena1]

Just an rather odd question here.

What if you had dynamic IP, instead of static? Dynamic IP changes each time you restart your device.

Also websites know your IP address, even if you are on a proxy lol.

[Caeruleiae]

4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It is not tattooed on their forhead; like the avatar key, which is also "public", it is not in search or on their profile.

In firestorm your UUID is on your profile. I don't know about the linden viewer, or others, because I don't use them. But in firestorm, your avatar key is right by your name. You don't need a script to find it. 

Everyone else already covered enough about IP addresses, I think. 

[Lysistrata Szapira]

I've found myself (including all of my alts) banned from one shopping sim.  I have no idea why. I never have media playing when I go shopping.  I've never so much as had a single word exchanged with any avatars on sim.  I don't linger on sims long enough for copybotter fears, and I'm certainly a rule-follower. 

The only thing I can think is that I blocked/muted the spamming subscribo that event owner uses because they were spamming multiple times a day with the same bloody message, and I got tired of it. I have no clue if subscribo scripts can detect a block (wouldn't think so but I'm no expert). 

What really confuses me is that I do not have a static IP address, so how do they detect my alts? I wanted something from a gacha. That was the only reason I tried to go there on multiple days.  I haven't bothered writing to that owner because I really don't care. I can do without their wares, but it is curious. 

[Orwar]

   This may be a silly question, but .. Are you supposed to have access to said region? If it's an event or such, they usually shut down public access between rounds whilst preparing for the next one. I've seen stores, clubs, and RP places do the same when they wanted to rebuild stuff. 

   IP bans are pretty much ineffective anyway, changing your IP address is quicker and arguably easier than changing your socks. Mostly because there's always a sock missing, but still. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

 This may be a silly question, but .. Are you supposed to have access to said region?

Originally the region was named - that's been removed.  But it is a newcomer area - one that folks can get dropped in to when they leave the newbie welcome / tutorial areas.

Edited January 26, 2023 by LittleMe Jewell

[Lewis Luminos]

15 hours ago, Casper Warden said:

Parcel audio isn't commonly used as an attack vector for this. While it's possible to get a user's IP address in this manner,  the parcel audio URL can't be customised for each individual avatar, it gets sent to everyone on the parcel, so it's harder to accurately link avatars to IP addresses.

I think its more likely to be shared media, which links to a web page or web database that the landowner owns/controls. The landowner can sneak a hidden MOAP in the land somewhere and any avatar visiting with media on autoplay will get on the list, and the landowner can look at their own web analytics to see the IP addresses that have accessed the media.

It doesn't even have to track who the alts are, just slap a blanket ban on that IP address, without even checking who the IP address belongs to and the effect is (mostly) the same... With the exception of dynamic IPs, and IPs that are shared by more than one person. 

Provided that the landowner isn't publishing lists of alts, (or accounts they suspect are alts) it's legal, but still morally questionable. 

Even more questionable is a certain brand of security system that uses it, and the associated spolders, which tell you that you can't enter to play unless you activate shared media first.

I can sort of understand it with sploders; it helps weed out cheats who send in armies of bots to maximise payout to themselves. But it doesn't just catch sploder-players, it can be anyone visiting the land for any purpose. And anyone can be added to the ban list for any reason or no reason, according to the whims of the landowner, and hey presto you're now banned from every parcel across the grid that uses this thing.

[belindacarson]

1 hour ago, Lewis Luminos said:

Even more questionable is a certain brand of security system that uses it, and the associated spolders, which tell you that you can't enter to play unless you activate shared media first.

Wrong.

 

That security device doesn't use media/media "exploit".  Nor does it tell you to enable shared media.  Go visit some of the places that use it, and make sure you have your media filter on.  You'll soon see.

 

Each owner must enable the "verify" function specifically, and when a player clicks to enter, they get a BIG blue pop up telling them that by entering, their IP address is logged to check they not using alts to game the system.  So it actually puts the choice whether to enter or not in the player's hands ref GDPR.  The player is free to refuse this by not entering.  How do I know this? I play the sploder sometimes.

 

Even if you do get banned by it, it's not IP linked (unless verify is in use and you are daft enough to use alts to try and game - even then it's a temporary ban), you can get unbanned by going to their inworld store or via their website.

 

Food for thought: That system's still around despite others being removed, so must have been checked out before.

 

[Lewis Luminos]

23 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

Food for thought: That system's still around despite others being removed, so must have been checked out before.

 

Which was exactly my point, as I said (and bolded) -

2 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

Provided that the landowner isn't publishing lists of alts, (or accounts they suspect are alts) it's legal, but still morally questionable. 

 

Linden Lab have clearly decided that they think its acceptable, even if some other people don't.

I have tried to enter one of their sploders before and it didn't accept my verification whilst I had media off. I opted not to turn it on, and therefore also opted not to play. I wouldn't have won anyway. Sploders hate me. To my knowledge I have not been banned from anywhere under their system.

[belindacarson]

11 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

Which was exactly my point, as I said (and bolded) -

Linden Lab have clearly decided that they think its acceptable, even if some other people don't.

I have tried to enter one of their sploders before and it didn't accept my verification whilst I had media off. I opted not to turn it on, and therefore also opted not to play. I wouldn't have won anyway. Sploders hate me. To my knowledge I have not been banned from anywhere under their system.

You still were giving wrong information out about it.  Get the tracker hud, go visit one and you'll see.

 

Just so you have the correct information.  Media filter ON.  check the various link for those that say verify is in use , or not, and you'll see.

 

In fact, I'll even take you there inworld so get yourself online, and I'll help you establish the correct facts!

Edited January 26, 2023 by belindacarson

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

 

Even more questionable is a certain brand of security system that uses it, and the associated spolders, which tell you that you can't enter to play unless you activate shared media first.

I can sort of understand it with sploders; it helps weed out cheats who send in armies of bots to maximise payout to themselves. But it doesn't just catch sploder-players, it can be anyone visiting the land for any purpose. And anyone can be added to the ban list for any reason or no reason, according to the whims of the landowner, and hey presto you're now banned from every parcel across the grid that uses this thing.

 The Security orb sold by that company is a stand alone purchase and can be used without owning a sploder which is the item that ASKS.  A security orb doesn't ask you anything.  It's security, plain and simple.   It can be configured for certain things but it also reads your IP IF you have media enabled.  They don't need to ask to do that anymore than a DJ needs to ask each person listening if they agree.   

As I've mentioned before, that security orb actually says on their MP page and their website...

 

Can I see peoples IP address and their alt avatars?
A: No, Voodoo doesn't disclose any information other than informing in local chat when an avatar is ejected.

 

Which is why they are not the same as that other banned item.  RZ did make IP addresses available to owners of their product.
 

[Qie Niangao]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:10 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

I suspect quite a few venues still use something like RedZone which wasn't really ever banned, let alone deprecated, even if the RL felon who wrangled it was banned. 

Yeah, there's no rule against venues harvesting IP addresses by whatever means, nor against banning "alts" based on the (unreliable) assumption that avatars with the same address are alts. What was prohibited as a result of RedZone is the public sharing of who is an alt of whom. That was forbidden regardless of how the alt identity was determined.

It took a ridiculously long time for the Lab to make that decision, after extended resident outrage expressed at office hours and on forum threads—largely on a third party site that everyone knew the Lindens viewed much more than they looked at their own forums.

To be honest, I'm not sure anything would ever have happened if the RedZone guy weren't an ex-con whose terms of parole prohibited him from anything like his Second Life activities.

As I recall, the RedZone devices were all bricked—probably the assets blacklisted.

[Lewis Luminos]

1 hour ago, belindacarson said:

You still were giving wrong information out about it.  Get the tracker hud, go visit one and you'll see.

 

Just so you have the correct information.  Media filter ON.  check the various link for those that say verify is in use , or not, and you'll see.

 

In fact, I'll even take you there inworld so get yourself online, and I'll help you establish the correct facts!

Thanks, but I absolutely refuse to put media filter on, especially in a place where I know for sure I'm going to get added to Mr you-know-who's database.

My media filter stays off, permanently and for ever.

[Silent Mistwalker]

20 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

That's the issue, the IP's of the listeners that are tuned in to a rented stream are not public, only the renter can see them as you need login and password to gain access to that information. I am currently testing what you're saying, booted up my dj software, activated the stream, entered the stream link into VLC mediaplayer and only I and you will get is the track info. No IP addresses of listeners are shown. You as user, whether it's as listener, owner of land that is using my stream in it's media tools (land stream/shoutcast board) has no access to IP info of the listeners, that is behind my login and password wall.

Just so you know, it's not ShoutCast that the DJ can see IPs on, it is/was SAM. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[belindacarson]

12 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

Thanks, but I absolutely refuse to put media filter on, especially in a place where I know for sure I'm going to get added to Mr you-know-who's database.

My media filter stays off, permanently and for ever.

The media filter is the secuity check on the media stream that shows you whAt stream is attempting to play, so you can check it for any dodgy url's.

 

so you leaving it off actually means you're not checking each stream.  kind of defeats the object.

[Silent Mistwalker]

20 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

More and more clubs/open stages are demanding that their dj's/performers have their own rented stream.

Sorry no. DJs and performers have always provided their own streams since the beginning. Some venues offered their own but most traditional DJs used their own stream. Nice to see things going back to the way they were since that usually worked the best.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, there's no rule against venues harvesting IP addresses by whatever means, nor against banning "alts" based on the (unreliable) assumption that avatars with the same address are alts. What was prohibited as a result of RedZone is the public sharing of who is an alt of whom. That was forbidden regardless of how the alt identity was determined.

It took a ridiculously long time for the Lab to make that decision, after extended resident outrage expressed at office hours and on forum threads—largely on a third party site that everyone knew the Lindens viewed much more than they looked at their own forums.

To be honest, I'm not sure anything would ever have happened if the RedZone guy weren't an ex-con whose terms of parole prohibited him from anything like his Second Life activities.

As I recall, the RedZone devices were all bricked—probably the assets blacklisted.

That's how I remember it.

[Lewis Luminos]

1 hour ago, belindacarson said:

 

so you leaving it off actually means you're not checking each stream.  kind of defeats the object.

I'm not turning it on just to check them. If it IS dodgy, by then it's too late. And if I keep it off, I don't need to know if it's dodgy or not.

You seem unusually invested in persuading me to do otherwise. The more you push, the less I trust you.

[Lindal Kidd]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:14 PM, Bold Burner said:

I have everything disabled and I'm still banned on all alts

Try using a VPN.

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I'm not turning it on just to check them. If it IS dodgy, by then it's too late. And if I keep it off, I don't need to know if it's dodgy or not.

You seem unusually invested in persuading me to do otherwise. The more you push, the less I trust you.

This is how you'd want your Media set up to be the most secure...

[belindacarson]

36 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I'm not turning it on just to check them. If it IS dodgy, by then it's too late. And if I keep it off, I don't need to know if it's dodgy or not.

You seem unusually invested in persuading me to do otherwise. The more you push, the less I trust you.

who's pushing? I offered you a chance to actually see the correct facts instead of the incorrect ones.  Even offered you a guided tour.

 

and it wouldn't be too late.  If you read up on the correct facts about the media filter, you'd see it lists the url BEFORE it plays it and you have to specifically approve the new stream.  It can't play until you allow it.

[Qie Niangao]

5 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

If you read up on the correct facts about the media filter, you'd see it lists the url BEFORE it plays it and you have to specifically approve the new stream.  It can't play until you allow it.

I think what might not be clear is that every viewer is presented with the stream URI by SL, whether or not that viewer enables media at all. If it doesn't have media enabled, or if the filter is enabled but the specific stream hasn't been approved, then there's no way for the stream to even know the viewer exists, let alone its IP address.