Anti consumer practices from vendors

[Coffee Pancake]

I am getting REALLY annoyed when vendors neglect to mention the difference between single color and fatpack versions of items.

I am NOT going to plump for a fatpack that's 5 - 8 times the price of a single because that's the only way of getting an assured outcome.

I am equally annoyed that we can't name and shame "brands" that pull this stunt. It's anti consumer, undermines trust in shopping and the platform in general. Consumers should have the right to know what they are getting before they pay and Linden Lab should be on the side of the consumer as negative shopping experiences hurt them far more than it hurts us.

 

 

[PekeNL]

29 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I am getting REALLY annoyed when vendors neglect to mention the difference between single color and fatpack versions of items.

I am NOT going to plump for a fatpack that's 5 - 8 times the price of a single because that's the only way of getting an assured outcome.

I am equally annoyed that we can't name and shame "brands" that pull this stunt. It's anti consumer, undermines trust in shopping and the platform in general. Consumers should have the right to know what they are getting before they pay and Linden Lab should be on the side of the consumer as negative shopping experiences hurt them far more than it hurts us.

 

 

We, as in the community as a collective, didn't give enough push-back when this started to become a trend. We're all equally responsible for these practices. It's annoying and very anti consumer, but it's the way we allowed it to pan out.

And, considering the forum doesn't allow it.. maybe the beef can be taken to alternative platforms where SL users are active?

[Paul Hexem]

I think you're mistaking a bug for a feature.

This is the company that considers fraud, theft, and other assorted real world crime on their platform to be out of their control- a resident to resident dispute, because it makes them money.

Residents doing other less than ethical things that makes them money is only going to be ignored, if not flat out encouraged... Which is why we're not allowed to call out merchants that behave this way.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, PekeNL said:

And, considering the forum doesn't allow it.. maybe the beef can be taken to alternative platforms where SL users are active?

That's what we have been doing for years and the problem has remained buried with LL able to sit on their hands and ignore the whole mess. It all has a scummy "don't talk about fight club" feeling to it.

Even just a set of guidelines for merchants, an opt in code of conduct merchants can agree to, literally anything.

!! WELCOME TO SL !!

Now you might be thinking about buying some stuff for your avatar, virtual stuff for a virtual avatar in a virtual space with no point or purpose

might well seem pointless, risky business, or just plain silly .. but never fear, just as soon as you get over that hump and do some shopping, remember 

NO REFUNDS - ALL SALES ARE FINAL - GOOD LUCK SUCKER

 

[PekeNL]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

That's what we have been doing for years and the problem has remained buried with LL able to sit on their hands and ignore the whole mess. It all has a scummy "don't talk about fight club" feeling to it.

Even just a set of guidelines for merchants, an opt in code of conduct merchants can agree to, literally anything.

!! WELCOME TO SL !!

Now you might be thinking about buying some stuff for your avatar, virtual stuff for a virtual avatar in a virtual space with no point or purpose

might well seem pointless, risky business, or just plain silly .. but never fear, just as soon as you get over that hump and do some shopping, remember 

NO REFUNDS - ALL SALES ARE FINAL - GOOD LUCK SUCKER

 

Every single merchant is simply lucky that SL is a USA based company. If it was based in the EU, any costumer spiteful enough would have a field day with EU consumer protection laws.

[Sid Nagy]

18 minutes ago, PekeNL said:

Every single merchant is simply lucky that SL is a USA based company. If it was based in the EU, any costumer spiteful enough would have a field day with EU consumer protection laws.

I think it would not make a big difference at all.
Yes, we have better protection in place in the EU, but that doesn't mean the EU is monitoring every site and game in the business on European soil.
Layers and lawsuits are needed just as much as in the USA. The chances of a positive outcome for the consumer in such a law suit are bigger, but still.....
There will not so many people start a costly law suit over a L$ 100 or so dispute. We are talking about peanut money in RL.

Who starts a law suit over a comparable case like a vendor machine in RL not giving out a Mars or Milky Way candy bar or a soda?
The producers of the candy bar, soda or the machine factury aren't to sue. but mister Jones who uses the soda machine in his shop. Good luck with that.
Same in SL. LL is not the one to sew IMHO.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

Sometimes the shops will eject you from their groups if you complain about that.

[Coffee Pancake]

8 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Sometimes the shops will eject you from their groups if you complain about that.

Had them do far worse over marketplace reviews - which totally should be anonymous .. if only scumbag creators wouldn't abuse it more than they already do to 💩 on their "competitors".

We couldn't even set up an external review site for people to anon post reviews and pictures as they would DMCA it.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Even just a set of guidelines for merchants, an opt in code of conduct merchants can agree to, literally anything.

I've talked before about a sort of consumer watchdog group that would not merely provide a place to complain about unethical business practices, but actively and transparently investigate these -- because if they didn't, it would be gamed madly.

I'm reconciled to the reality that that isn't going to happen, because it would be an immense amount of work, and responsibility. But I DO like the idea of an opt-in code of conduct. A set of rules and practices established by merchants themselves and made public and, again, transparent. Businesses that subscribed to this code would be listed on a central web site, and permitted to display a certification of some sort on their MP pages and in-world stores.

Yes, that latter would be gamed, and there's no mechanism to prevent merchants from simply forging the certification, but a centralized list would counterbalance that.

It would be great if some of the more responsible merchants undertook to do that. It would, conceivably, even give them a competitive edge over those who didn't sign on.

But . . . ain't gonna happen.

Welcome to Xtreme Free Marketism.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Lewis Luminos]

2 hours ago, PekeNL said:

Every single merchant is simply lucky that SL is a USA based company. If it was based in the EU, any costumer spiteful enough would have a field day with EU consumer protection laws.

It surprises me that it's not the other way round.  The US is so much more litigation-happy than any European country is, they'll sue anyone at the drop of a hat. I'm honestly surprised that Linden Lab wasn't sued out of existence years ago.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Lewis Luminos

[Dorientje Woller]

What concerns me more is that some creators are using pictures on their vendors and/or the Marketplace that come straight out of their 3d render software and not from inworld. As such they don't reflect how the items look as it would be inworld. In other words, if the advertisment is not reflecting the reality of the product ... it's called false advertisment.

[EliseAnne85]

3 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I am getting REALLY annoyed when vendors neglect to mention the difference between single color and fatpack versions of items.

I am lost here, Coffee Pancake.  This has never happened to me before.  Could you explain why you cannot tell a single color from the fatpack?  

[Sid Nagy]

7 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

What concerns me more is that some creators are using pictures on their vendors and/or the Marketplace that come straight out of their 3d render software and not from inworld. As such they don't reflect how the items look as it would be inworld. In other words, if the advertisment is not reflecting the reality of the product ... it's called false advertisment.

You maybe have a point there, but:

I Never got a burger from that famous burger company that looked as advertised in RL either.
So I guess that is how advertisement works for some.
 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Coffee Pancake]

13 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

What concerns me more is that some creators are using pictures on their vendors and/or the Marketplace that come straight out of their 3d render software and not from inworld. As such they don't reflect how the items look as it would be inworld. In other words, if the advertisment is not reflecting the reality of the product ... it's called false advertisment.

This is a huge annoyance, personally I avoid all vendors who do this. 

The picture used to sell the product is not SL. It's not rendered in SL. Not as it will be seen in SL. Most of the time not even on a SL avatar.

You're buying the idea of a product. 

7 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

I Never got a burger from that famous burger company that looked as advertised in RL either.
So I guess that is how advertisement works for some.

Yes, but you were looking at a photo of actual food. Not an artists impression of food that had eyes, a big smile and danced the macarena.

12 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I am lost here, Coffee Pancake.  This has never happened to me before.  Could you explain why you cannot tell a single color from the fatpack?  

Say you have a hat, the hat has a feather.

The fat pack HUD has all 8 hat colors and 8 feather colors, and 3 different metals so you can mix and match to your hearts content.

The single product might or might not come with a HUD. The HUD might or might not let you adjust the feather. Who know what you get till after you buy it.

It's important to note you wouldn't want the feather to be the same color as the hat, because that looks terrible.

 

Do you pay 200 for the one color you want and risk that it comes with a HUD and that HUD lets you change the feather? Or do you buy the fatpack for 1200 just to be safe.

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Dorientje Woller]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is a huge annoyance, personally I avoid all vendors who do this. 

The picture used to sell the product is not SL. It's not rendered in SL. Not as it will be seen in SL. Most of the time not even on a SL avatar.

You're buying the idea of a product. 

Yes, but you were looking at a photo of actual food. Not an artists impression of food that had eyes, a big smile and danced the macarena.

Say you have a hat, the hat has a feather.

The fat pack HUD has all 8 hat colors and 8 feather colors, and 3 different metals so you can mix and match to your hearts content.

The single product might or might not come with a HUD. The HUD might or might not let you adjust the feather. Who know what you get till after you buy it.

It's important to note you wouldn't want the feather to be the same color as the hat, because that's basically invisible and looks terrible.

 

Do you pay 200 for the one color you want and risk that it comes with a HUD and that HUD lets you change the feather? Or do you buy the fatpack for 1200 just to be safe.

 

Sellers who don't specify what the buyer gets, are mostly if not always avoided by me. Their loss, not mine.

[Lewis Luminos]

17 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Yes, but you were looking at a photo of actual food.

 

Not necessarily.

My father was a commercial photographer before he retired and part of his job involved food adverts like that. Most of what's in those advertising photos isn't food at all. They substitute other thngs; nowadays it's mostly resin but back then it could be anything from coloured mashed potato to children's play-putty. Spray-painted sawdust instead of herbs, engine oil instead of syrup, that sort of thing.

To bring it back onto topic - this is what demos are for. try the demo, then you'll know what it really looks like.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Lewis Luminos

[Sandy Schnook]

Okay, just be sure I'm on the right page as a seller.  If I have both single items and a fatpack, they are on completely different vendors.  I do charge an uptick for the Fatpack, but it's never as high as the single items all together, usually just about 2.5 to 3 times higher.  Not single price x amount of possible changes.  And I absolutely HATE pictures of the item from outside of SL, it seems a misrepresentation,  so taking them in SL for me, is a given.  Does that sound about right as a concerned vendor?

[Rolig Loon]

3 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Residents doing other less than ethical things that makes them money is only going to be ignored, if not flat out encouraged... Which is why we're not allowed to call out merchants that behave this way.

The policy against naming and shaming in the forums is there to protect each of us against public defamation by idiot hotheads (and well-meaning but misinformed people). Without it, every malcontent with a grudge against you or me would be free to post questionable claims against us. Threads already occasionally become shouting matches, but it would be significantly worse if any discontented customer (or rival merchant) could shame a merchant publicly with exaggerated stories or outright falsehoods.  We all know that there are clumsy, inept, shady and outright deceitful merchants in SL, but it would be patently unfair to allow you or me to damage reputations with incomplete, unfounded or potentially biased posts.

[Teagan Tobias]

3 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I am getting REALLY annoyed when vendors neglect to mention the difference between single color and fatpack versions of items.

I am NOT going to plump for a fatpack that's 5 - 8 times the price of a single because that's the only way of getting an assured outcome.

I am equally annoyed that we can't name and shame "brands" that pull this stunt. It's anti consumer, undermines trust in shopping and the platform in general. Consumers should have the right to know what they are getting before they pay and Linden Lab should be on the side of the consumer as negative shopping experiences hurt them far more than it hurts us.

 

 

 

Isn't not knowing what your buying call a gotcha? We still doing that?

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

34 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Do you pay 200 for the one color you want and risk that it comes with a HUD and that HUD lets you change the feather? Or do you buy the fatpack for 1200 just to be safe.

You don't buy it at all.  At !east I don't.  I've also sent notes to.creators telling them why I didn't make.the purchase.  The not being able to change metals in a single purchase item means NO SALE to me.  

[Arielle Popstar]

13 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

The policy against naming and shaming in the forums is there to protect each of us against public defamation by idiot hotheads (and well-meaning but misinformed people). Without it, every malcontent with a grudge against you or me would be free to post questionable claims against us. Threads already occasionally become shouting matches, but it would be significantly worse if any discontented customer (or rival merchant) could shame a merchant publicly with exaggerated stories or outright falsehoods.  We all know that there are clumsy, inept, shady and outright deceitful merchants in SL, but it would be patently unfair to allow you or me to damage reputations with incomplete, unfounded or potentially biased posts.

It's also unfair to allow them to continue selling shoddy and misrepresented products using their servers. 

[Orwar]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

The not being able to change metals in a single purchase item means NO SALE to me.  

   There's a store that I used to check out basically every weekend for the weekend sales (and quite frequently bought from at full prices as well, including a few fat-packs), until one time they did exactly that. In the demo, you only got the FP HUD and on all previous purchases metal changing was part of the single packs, so there was no way for me to know.

   I only lost L$60-75 (can't remember which sale it was), so it wasn't a huge deal from a pecuniary perspective - but they lost my trust, and thus my business. Thus cuts the double-edged blade of the free market! 

[EliseAnne85]

46 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Do you pay 200 for the one color you want and risk that it comes with a HUD and that HUD lets you change the feather? Or do you buy the fatpack for 1200 just to be safe.

Oh, I see.  Hmmmmmm, it's a HUD thing.  I have bought so much from stores that have a hud for a single item; the single item demo comes with it's hud and shows you what you get to change.  I think I have run into your scenario a few times and passed on the whole thing because it was too confusing.  

Edited January 13, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

The policy against naming and shaming in the forums is there to protect each of us against public defamation by idiot hotheads (and well-meaning but misinformed people). Without it, every malcontent with a grudge against you or me would be free to post questionable claims against us. Threads already occasionally become shouting matches, but it would be significantly worse if any discontented customer (or rival merchant) could shame a merchant publicly with exaggerated stories or outright falsehoods.  We all know that there are clumsy, inept, shady and outright deceitful merchants in SL, but it would be patently unfair to allow you or me to damage reputations with incomplete, unfounded or potentially biased posts.

There is a difference between posting about an individual and a brand's product.

We can't even post a critical review here.

"The brand X fancy pants fit ok on my brand Y body, but the ass kept glitching and there wasn't an alpha layer included"

It would only be patently unfair if one persons opinions we're allowed to stand in isolation, this is a forum, that's not what would happen.

As an aside, If I had a bad experience with a merchant, I would like to share that experience. But you will never know which one stalked me from a meh SLM review, spent 2 hours (H O U R S) threatening me personally in IM and saying I would be banned from his store and everything I had purchased remotely bricked. I had easily spent 20K at his store by that point and was entirely unaware half the stuff was actually lifted from online mesh libraries. If only .... 

[Rolig Loon]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It's also unfair to allow them to continue selling shoddy and misrepresented products using their servers. 

I agree, but the way to deal with it is not to pillory suspected bad actors publicly but to submit Abuse Reports and let Linden  Lab do a proper investigation to gather facts before punishing a suspected shady merchant.  I know that investigations are slow and often inconclusive, but the alternative is vigilante justice.  Personally, I would be irate if someone posted public venom about me.  I'm sure that you would too.