Proposal - a covenant for mainland

[Gabriele Graves]

27 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

You should come to mainland ground level to co-exist with your neighbors in a peaceful and respectful way. Yes, "you should". Because everything else doesn't make sense. Go build a skybox otherwise. And I question that everyone has this intention when they build on mainland ground. You put ugly AF 2D walls all around your property, means you don't want to see your neighbors, and you don't want to be seen, and, you don't care if your 2D walls look like crap for everyone else, which is everything but respectful. There's nothing wrong with building walls around your parcel that fit into the landscape. Any effing fine looking wall even. But people want to save prims, don't care what it looks like, and don't care what it looks like to others.

That said, while I've had experiences with this type of neighbor, I've also met way more people who do care and who do realize that mainland is a community. In the end this is a problem of "mindset" and can hardly be solved by rules. You forbid 2D walls, then what about ugly prim walls? And so on.. as I had said, as a solution Linden should just offer some great looking bases for decoration/parcel borders that don't count against prim limit, and people will be motivated to use those.

I don't think you really understand what mainland is.  Like a lot of people you want to mould it all into your ideology instead of just the bit you can afford to buy.

[Sammy Huntsman]

I think the majority is saying the freedom to be able to be creative and express themselves, without some overarching rules and basically having some sort of control of what they can and can't do on their land. I mean as long as they are following TOS. That being said, a lot of them don't want a pseudo-virtual HOA. Like you would see IRL or even in Bellissaria. 

[xDancingStarx]

16 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

mould it all into your ideology

What ideology? The ideology that you should care about what your precious 2D walls look like to others, because you intentionally move next to other people? If you want to call that an "ideology", that's fine, I would call this simply "respectful".

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

56 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

You should come to mainland ground level to co-exist with your neighbors in a peaceful and respectful way. Yes, "you should". Because everything else doesn't make sense. Go build a skybox otherwise. And I question that everyone has this intention when they build on mainland ground. You put ugly AF 2D walls all around your property, means you don't want to see your neighbors, and you don't want to be seen, and, you don't care if your 2D walls look like crap for everyone else, which is everything but respectful. There's nothing wrong with building walls around your parcel that fit into the landscape. Any effing fine looking wall even. But people want to save prims, don't care what it looks like, and don't care what it looks like to others.

That said, while I've had experiences with this type of neighbor, I've also met way more people who do care and who do realize that mainland is a community. In the end this is a problem of "mindset" and can hardly be solved by rules. You forbid 2D walls, then what about ugly prim walls? And so on.. as I had said, as a solution Linden should just offer some great looking bases for decoration/parcel borders that don't count against prim limit, and people will be motivated to use those.

I mean if you don't like it, there is one of two options. Either find another parcel, or derender the walls. That is pretty simple. And ngl with you, there is no real theme on mainland. Its just a smorgasbord of themes mashed onto a contient. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

7 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

What ideology? The ideology that you should care about what your precious 2D walls look like to others, because you intentionally move next to other people? If you want to call that an "ideology", that's fine, I would call this simply "respectful".

 

Well the third solution is to go to bellissaria, where it is uniform and is very much in line with how you are thinking. I don't know how hard any of these options are for you. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

7 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

What ideology? The ideology that you should care about what your precious 2D walls look like to others, because you intentionally move next to other people? If you want to call that an "ideology", that's fine, I would call this simply "respectful".

 

What you think of my 2D walls is probably not the same as what I think of them...not that I have any but you get my drift.  Not everyone is a talented landscaper or can create beautiful parcels that are eye pleasing. The mainland is basically an open sketchbook. Don't like it? Then move somewhere else.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

What you think of my 2D walls is probably not the same as what I think of them...not that I have any but you get my drift.  Not everyone is a talented landscaper or can create beautiful parcels that are eye pleasing. The mainland is basically an open sketchbook. Don't like it? Then move somewhere else.

Great minds think a like, I said they had 3 options. But 2 options were to move somewhere else. 

[Gabriele Graves]

49 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

What ideology? The ideology that you should care about what your precious 2D walls look like to others, because you intentionally move next to other people? If you want to call that an "ideology", that's fine, I would call this simply "respectful".

 

Yes, that and what you posted before.  Your ideology starts to show when you want to define what is "respectful" for others.

EDIT: *** THIS NEXT PART IS A GENERAL STATEMENT, IS USING THE COLLECTIVE "YOU" AND ISN'T ABOUT THE PERSON I QUOTED ***

Mainland is a big sandbox and always was.  It was never created with the idea that anyone should be constrained from building whatever the heck they wanted, in whatever creative ways they could conceive of and people have done over the years.  You cannot preserve that and tell people they cannot have ugly screens, there is no line in the sand that makes that possible.  A mainland constrained, controlled and patrolled for enforcement in these ways is a different product entirely from what it originated from and probably a different price point considering the extra effort required to make it possible.

I think a lot of the ideology problems started to come in when a lot less people built weird stuff with prims.  The people who only buy and then plonk down housing, landscaping and decor have very little tolerance for anything that isn't "pretty"

Edited October 4, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[xDancingStarx]

29 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Yes, that and what you posted before.  Your ideology starts to show when you want to define what is "respectful" for others. [...] You cannot preserve that and tell people they cannot have ugly screens[...]

What I posted before? You're telling me "You cannot...tell people they cannot have ugly screens". What did I write? I wrote "can hardly be solved by rules". In which case I'm not sure what you're referring to when you write "what you posted before" but apparently not what I wrote in this thread. On the CONTRARY, I wrote about INCENTIVES to not use ugly AF 2D walls, I did not write "forbid others to have ugly screens". That doesn't change the fact that there is a discrepancy between creative people who care about what land looks like, and people who don't. That does also not mean that everyone who uses 2D walls does not care.

Edited October 4, 2022 by xDancingStarx

[Gabriele Graves]

5 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

What I posted before? You're telling me "You cannot...tell people they cannot have ugly screens". What did I write? I wrote "can hardly be solved by rules". In which case I'm not sure what you're referring to when you write "what you posted before" but apparently not what I wrote in this thread. On the CONTRARY, I wrote about INCENTIVES to not use ugly AF 2D walls, I did not write "forbid others to have ugly screens". That doesn't change the fact that there is a discrepancy between creative people who care about what land looks like, and people who don't. That does also not mean that everyone who uses 2D walls does not care.

*sighs* that part of my post was a general statement about what I think and the "you" wasn't you personally.

Doesn't anyone get the collective "you" any more?

[belindacarson]

Mainland is what you make of it really.

 

I keep my land private as do my neighbours with zero second orbs (we do have each other "white listed" so we don't zap each other or friends).

 

If you see something you don't like just derender it

[Maitimo]

I build in the sky on my mainland because the ground level is a nearly vertical slope. In order to get 32 x 32m of flat land at the top, I need a block prim (or cliff, or whatever) of around 65m high. In order to build cliffside, with the house sticking out of the cliff, it would have to be near the top of the slope in order to have enough horizontal space to fit a house in at all. I havent even put trees on the slope because it's too steep even for the bases of them.

I don't plan to inflict that monstrosity of a view on my neighbour, who is on much less sloped land and its very pretty.

But hey, this parcel cost me less than L$1000.

 

[Abnor Mole]

It's important to remember that Bellisseria and Mainland are two different products and residents can choose which one appeals to them more.

Mainland's appeal is having a high level of freedom and choice. If you want that unfettered freedom with the understanding that your neighbors also have that same level of freedom, then Mainland (and all of its potentially chaotic quirkiness) is for you. 

Bellisseria's appeal is a structured environment. If you're willing to forgo some of that freedom in exchange for small parcel in more organized and regulated surroundings, then Bellisseria (with its greatly reduced risk of discordance) may be a better option for you.

Different strokes for different folks.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Abnor Mole

[Eddy Vortex]

On 10/3/2022 at 6:33 AM, xDancingStarx said:

As long as people buy land to put ugly AF 2D walls around their land, on the ground, mainland is broke.

Having different ideas of good aesthetics than one's neighbors does not mean mainland is broken.  People's questionable (at best) taste in decor does not equal broken.

Broken would be something like sims knocked offline or things not rezzing or land settings not responding.

[Lewis Luminos]

14 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Mainland is a big sandbox and always was.  It was never created with the idea that anyone should be constrained from building whatever the heck they wanted, in whatever creative ways they could conceive of and people have done over the years.  You cannot preserve that and tell people they cannot have ugly screens, there is no line in the sand that makes that possible.  A mainland constrained, controlled and patrolled for enforcement in these ways is a different product entirely from what it originated from and probably a different price point considering the extra effort required to make it possible.

I think a lot of the ideology problems started to come in when a lot less people built weird stuff with prims.  The people who only buy and then plonk down housing, landscaping and decor have very little tolerance for anything that isn't "pretty"

THIS.

Mainland isn't broken, it's exactly how it's supposed to be.

If you don't like somethig that your neighbour has rezzed, there are still choices. Derender it. Or move to a skybox. Or put up your own screen. Or sell your parcel and move. Go to Bellisseria or a private estate if you want "HOA" land with a covenant.  People who demand rules and regulatons do not belong on mainland, it's not made for them and never was.

Personally, I don't particularly care what is next door to me. To the east I have protected water. To the west I have protected road which is on a viaduct about 12m above ground level. I don't like the way the viaduct looks so I have a screen of trees and ferns over it.  North is a nice parcel with a beach house and the guy who lives there has been there even longer than I've had mine (since 2009).  South is a parcel that changes hands frequently and there's often a less-than-attractive build there. From the full-bright pink barbie house, to the current build; a GTFO depot on scaffolding which stands level with the road, way above my beach. I have a 2d screen in front of that, to block my view of it, but the screen is transparent from the outside. Anyone at the hub can see through it into my parcel.

[Sammy Huntsman]

14 hours ago, xDancingStarx said:

What ideology? The ideology that you should care about what your precious 2D walls look like to others, because you intentionally move next to other people? If you want to call that an "ideology", that's fine, I would call this simply "respectful".

 

I mean it really doesn't matter, it's SL after all. There are so many ways you can combat it. But the one way you shouldn't is by putting your standards on someone else and expecting someone else to conform. This is like that whole body debate, where we have people getting catty and trying to impose their standards on others. That is just wrong. What you may find as ugly, they may like it, and vice versa. 

[Polenth Yue]

It's rare for threads like this to include a set of rules that'd allow my mainland build. Which is interesting considering my neighbours are fine with it and buy things from me. This is less about being a good neighbour and more about wanting taste/style restrictions. (Keeping in mind there are already rules for things like encroaching and following the age ratings, which are aimed at being a good neighbour.)

I like having a Linden Home as well, but I won't post pictures of it, because I know some people are looking for things to report. Often just things they find ugly ("not in theme" does a lot of work here) or don't really understand (thinking something is commercial when it isn't). This is the worst part of the Linden Home community and not the bit you want to be exporting.

Basically, unless you want the fence police going out with measuring sticks to see if a wall is slightly too high, then sending angry IMs to the owner, you don't really want this. That is exactly what it'd mean.

[diamond Marchant]

1 hour ago, Abnor Mole said:

It's important to remember that Bellisseria and Mainland are two different products and residents can choose which one appeals to them more.

Right on!

1 hour ago, Abnor Mole said:

Bellisseria's appeal is a structured environment.

OMG, he didn't say "community"  (which I believe is a myth).  I believe the main differentiator is two fold... (1) Belli is the best value in SL (if you are Premium) and (2) Belli requires almost no SL knowledge (i.e. extremely low barrier to entry for noobs).

Mainland requires investment of time/money to figure out what's what. But the opportunities for expressing yourself are far greater.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Abnor Mole said:

It's important to remember that Bellisseria and Mainland are two different products

See, the only place that any of this is a collection of different products is inside the Linden bubble. That's not the language customers use and it's not how they see the singular wholistic Second Life product. It's might feel like a nitpick but the internal company lingo and language influences culture, which does impact not only how the service is perceived inside a company, but how its prioritized, packaged and funded. This alone will account for a significant portion of the public perception that the Lab are, in many ways, out of step with their customers (sorry .. residents .. yeah, there we go).

Mainland was probably a mistake all things considered, but the carve out as a "legacy product" ensures almost 20 years of hindsight can't ever been applied to it.

[Persephone Emerald]

6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

See, the only place that any of this is a collection of different products is inside the Linden bubble. That's not the language customers use and it's not how they see the singular wholistic Second Life product. It's might feel like a nitpick but the internal company lingo and language influences culture, which does impact not only how the service is perceived inside a company, but how its prioritized, packaged and funded. This alone will account for a significant portion of the public perception that the Lab are, in many ways, out of step with their customers (sorry .. residents .. yeah, there we go).

Mainland was probably a mistake all things considered, but the carve out as a "legacy product" ensures almost 20 years of hindsight can't ever been applied to it.

Do new users see 2 different products when they come into SL?  I expect they don't.

They likely see a confusing mess on mainland, isolated and nearly empty islands, and sims that look interesting in Search, but which won't let them in. I *hope* some of them accidentally teleport into Bellisseria to see what they expect a virtual game world to look like. But if they do, they're still going to wonder what else is there in SL except meat-market beaches, empty clubs, and stores.

Philip Rosedale loves to talk about how the people who build communities is what makes SL great, but this sense of community is sadly dying.

[animats]

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

See, the only place that any of this is a collection of different products is inside the Linden bubble. That's not the language customers use and it's not how they see the singular wholistic Second Life product. It's might feel like a nitpick but the internal company lingo and language influences culture, which does impact not only how the service is perceived inside a company, but how its prioritized, packaged and funded.

Hm. Internally, regions do have product SKUs, which you can see in the Region tab.

• Mainland / Full Region (Mainland region)
• Estate / Full Region (Private estate)
• Linden Homes (old 512m^2 Linden Homes regions)
• Linden Homes 2 (new Linden Homes, i.e. Bellessaria)
• ...

(There are also estate types used for internal purposes, such as "Premium Sandboxes" and "Bug Island", but you can't buy or rent land there.)

One can speculate about the management structure from the outside. It's possible that they're seen as competing products for marketing purposes. Perhaps under different product managers. Estates have their own organization within LL, "Estate Services", with its own support and marketing groups. Maybe there's a similar organizational split between Mainland and Premium / Linden Homes. In a sense, those are two different business lines - getting users to sign up for Premium, and getting users to buy land. One envisions meetings with PowerPoint slides showing the last month's revenue from each major product line - estates, mainland, and premium.

Useful insight.

 

[Aethelwine]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:20 PM, Maitimo said:

No. Mainland exists solely for people who don't want a covenant.  If you want a covenant, go get a Linden Home or rent on an estate.

At the very most, I'd accept maybe one continent, and maybe a small one like Gaeta V, but absolutely not all of them. Mainland is anarchy on purpose.

Mainland also exists for people that want to live in a community not bound by restrictions they find elsewhere.

Bellisseria is great but you can't sell from there, you are restricted by what buildings you put out or having no buildings at all. Mainland is not solely a product for people that don't want a covenant. People enjoy Mainland for the creativity, the freedom to explore, connectivity and sense of community unavailable elsewhere.

There are alternative options, like private estates connected to mainland for boats, but they too have restrictions often strange ones that are not to everyone's tastes - Seychelles for example has a bizarre rule on not allowing autoreturn. The availability of those options don't address the issue anyway.

In my experience the forum has a very different view on this topic to the view common on mainland that people feel restricted by the lack of a covenant, like Bellisseria. Although they don't want all that covenant because they want to see businesses, they want to have tip jars, they enjoy the diversity of builds and creativity.

The value of land around roads and waterways is very dependent on what neighbours have done. Derendering isn't an option when the problem is oppressive security elsewhere along the protected route. It is why land has less value the further along a river way you are and away from open water. Consider the different value between land adjacent to the Sea of fables and land up near the Linden Village, or along the North edge of Corsica compared to that along the South next to the open water. Another problem are resources you can buy the perfect spot only for a busy community hub to arrive in the opposite corner that regularly attracts 30 to 40 avatars so you can't always rely on being able to bring a friend home. A neighbour can knock LS100,000 value off your land by what they put on it. Mainland might not be totally broke, but it does have problems that often make buying land an expensive gamble. 

I don't fully agree with Animats on the specifics but in general I think there is much more desire for additional rules or better interpretation of existing rules and enforcement of them than people on the forum tend to give credit too. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Gabriele Graves]

I don't doubt that there may be a desire for LL to enforce their TOS on mainland much more than they do and are capable of today but it's a fallacy to think that our own experiences are typical of a general feeling about something.  If there really was a generally much more desire for additional rules then it would be quantifiable and easily shown here as evidence.

[Aethelwine]

20 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I don't doubt that there may be a desire for LL to enforce their TOS on mainland much more than they do and are capable of today but it's a fallacy to think that our own experiences are typical of a general feeling about something.  If there really was a generally much more desire for additional rules then it would be quantifiable and easily shown here as evidence.

Like with the difference in land values? That clearly show the value of land with high quality access to transport routes.  What other feedback mechanism are you thinking of? 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Gabriele Graves]

12 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Like with the difference in land values?

If you mean that land with higher prices in picturesque areas or areas that have managed communities is evidence that more people want more rules then I would dispute that.

Firstly, asking higher prices is no indication of properties selling at those prices.

Land values mostly seem to follow terrains features such as waterways (coastal, river, lakes, etc.) or things like double-prim land rather than communities on mainland.  I can sell a 1024x1024 at Nautilus City for L$85K (and I know for sure because I sold one just recently with a week of listing and it was to another resident who was not in any real estate related business) because it's double prim even though the area isn't particularly picturesque or that there is any sense of community there.

If people wanted more rules because it would make mainland better looking then more collectives would form to create communities, create their own rules and mainland would be awash with them and their desires for that.  It's not, if anything they are a dying breed.  That would be my counter-claim.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Gabriele Graves