Proposal - a covenant for mainland

[animats]

The popularity of Bellessaria seems to have come with a decline of mainland. This is a problem for both LL and SL users. Parts of mainland are great. Parts of mainland are a mess. Bellessaria, on the other hand, looks consistently good. So, a proposal: gradually apply parts of the Bellessaria covenant to mainland.

Start with abandoned land. The new covenant would apply to any land purchased from Linden Lab directly. See how that works out.

Next, for part of some continent, apply the new covenant on any change in ownership. Again, see how that works out.

Next, apply the new covenant on any change in rental.

So, this doesn't affect builds that have been around forever. But when things change, the new rules begin to apply .

What to use from the Bellessaria covenant? The rules aimed at de-cluttering land:

• The privacy wall rule: "Privacy walls or fences should fit the theme and extend no more than 4m above ground level".
• The skybox rule: "Skyboxes ... only allowed above 2000m to keep the skies clear of physical/visual obstructions and casting ground shadows."
• The security orb rules: "Minimum of 15 seconds". "Cannot include 400m to 2000m." "Does not add people to parcel ban list automatically."
• The map ad rule: "Using prims or objects on parcels meant as advertisements on the world map is prohibited."

Ban lines would still be allowed.

These rules have been in effect for Bellessaria for years now, and don't seem to cause problems. So they shouldn't be controversial. They're all objective, and easily enforced.

Comments?

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by animats

[Persephone Emerald]

While I appreciate your perspective on this issue, I don't think this would work and don't think LL would do it. People who are currently paying for mainland would not like having the rules changed on them, and implementing such changes incrementally as you suggest would likely not be possible to enact or enforce.

[MoiraKathleen]

My main home parcel is on Mainland, and personally I wouldn't have to change anything to fit it with the proposed items.  However, I am not in favor of a covenant for Mainland.  There are Estates which have covenants, there is Bellisseria which has a covenant... Mainland is the only place where one has complete freedom to be creative and build whatever they want.  

I would also be concerned about the additional manpower that would be necessary for enforcement of a covenant on Mainland, and, if parcels were incrementally changed to being under a covenant, the confusion for neighbors and for governance with having to check whether a particular parcel that may have an AR filed was under the covenant or not under the covenant at the time of the AR filing. 

Even in Bellisseria there are homeowners who are not aware that there is a covenant and have never read it.  I think that would be even more of a problem with Mainland parcel owners.  

[Rowan Amore]

Who decides what the theme is when putting up a fence?  The HOA?

As @MoiraKathleenmentioned, LL doesn't even have the manpower to enforce the rules currently on Belli and mainland (few that they are).  

Personally, I'd love if they made the banlines more attractive.  How hard could that be?  Serious question.  Do they HAVE to look.like crime scene tape?

[Eddy Vortex]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Leave Mainland as it is. It's perfect for those who want complete freedom to build to their heart's content without restrictions.  For those who wish for some order in a controlled environment, that's what Bellisseria and private estates are for.

It wouldn't be feasible to enforce different covenant rules on different parcels based on purchase date. LL has a hard enough time keeping up with ARs from Bellisseria and people have reported seeing ARs not being resolved for months. Can't imagine the numbers of ARs skyrocketing if Mainland had a covenant.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Leave Mainland alone. If you want a  home with a covenant, there are plenty of places to find one. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

[Sammy Huntsman]

58 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Who decides what the theme is when putting up a fence?  The HOA?

As @MoiraKathleenmentioned, LL doesn't even have the manpower to enforce the rules currently on Belli and mainland (few that they are).  

Personally, I'd love if they made the banlines more attractive.  How hard could that be?  Serious question.  Do they HAVE to look.like crime scene tape?

Maybe allow you to upload your own, or have a choice in the settings. To change it, or add your own. 

[xDancingStarx]

9 hours ago, Eddy Vortex said:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As long as people buy land to put ugly AF 2D walls around their land, on the ground, mainland is broke.

Maybe LL should include some free, good looking parcel borders in the library that look as natural as possible and don't make it an eyesore, and to motivate people to use them they wouldn't count against the prim limit.

Edited October 3, 2022 by xDancingStarx

[Maitimo]

No. Mainland exists solely for people who don't want a covenant.  If you want a covenant, go get a Linden Home or rent on an estate.

At the very most, I'd accept maybe one continent, and maybe a small one like Gaeta V, but absolutely not all of them. Mainland is anarchy on purpose.

[diamond Marchant]

20 hours ago, animats said:

Parts of mainland are a mess.

I am in on the big NO but the OP does get one to thinking about mainland issues.

For example...

is mainland a mess because of all the abandoned land or because of all the owned land with annoying builds?

Does the bizarre tier pricing structure  inhibit the development of mainland?

Can the region/simulator/AWS -server-type bindings be configured so that empty or low-density regions cost less to operate?

Would a focus on enforcing encroachments on linden protected land/water improve things?

Should llEjectFromLand(key avatar) delay before ejecting an avatar?

Should the World Map render mesh object (roads in particular) and support informational overlays?

So.... issues like these.

 

[Gabriele Graves]

Another BIG NOPE from me.  People who don't like mainland the way it is have plenty of other options.

[Coffee Pancake]

There is no point creating a rule that either wont be followed or enforced.

[Quistess Alpha]

16 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Personally, I'd love if they made the banlines more attractive.  How hard could that be?  Serious question.

Trivial. In your viewer's installation directory, find skins/default/textures/world/NoEntryLines.png and make it prettier, then petition your viewer of choice to use your prettier one instead of the ugly one. You could also change NoEntryPassLines.png to match, but since that's so rare . . .

[animats]

1 hour ago, diamond Marchant said:

Should the World Map render mesh object (roads in particular) and support informational overlays?

More map overlay layers have been discussed at Creator User Group. Maybe "for rent" and "has ban line"? There's already "for sale". That would remove the need for big FOR RENT signs in the sky.

1 hour ago, diamond Marchant said:

Should llEjectFromLand(key avatar) delay before ejecting an avatar?

A 15 second delay would solve some problems. Ban lines are visible, have no delay, and have a height limit, so they're less troublesome.

6 hours ago, xDancingStarx said:

As long as people buy land to put ugly AF 2D walls around their land, on the ground, mainland is broke.

That's a problem. Some private landlords which will rent you an isolated square on an isolated island, for those who want to be alone. Maybe LL should offer that. Call it a "mini-homestead". Privacy settings at max by default. Maybe offer a free land swap and item move to anyone who wants to move to one.

There are places for people who want an isolated parcel. They are not well known.

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 hour ago, diamond Marchant said:

is mainland a mess because of all the abandoned land or because of all the owned land with annoying builds?

 

 

If I have learned anything in the last four years is that what is annoying to some is not to another. That is the exact purpose of the mainland. Everyone can be their own annoying self. Take that away and you have just another platform with rules that people will either try to circumvent or they will leave altogether.

Don't live there if you hate it so much. Not directed at @diamond Marchant Just a general comment.

[Gabriele Graves]

4 hours ago, animats said:

There are places for people who want an isolated parcel. They are not well known.

You erroneously equate such people as wanting an isolated parcel and repeatedly assert this.  It isn't because people don't know about isolated parcels, it's because that is not what they want.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Rowan Amore]

5 hours ago, animats said:

More map overlay layers have been discussed at Creator User Group. Maybe "for rent" and "has ban line"? There's already "for sale". That would remove the need for big FOR RENT signs in the sky.

A 15 second delay would solve some problems. Ban lines are visible, have no delay, and have a height limit, so they're less troublesome.

That's a problem. Some private landlords which will rent you an isolated square on an isolated island, for those who want to be alone. Maybe LL should offer that. Call it a "mini-homestead". Privacy settings at max by default. Maybe offer a free land swap and item move to anyone who wants to move to one.

There are places for people who want an isolated parcel. They are not well known.

Those parcels pictured are hardly isolated.  

[animats]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Those parcels pictured are hardly isolated.  

Once you put up your walls and your ban line, and turn off "look inside parcel", you're mostly isolated. The idea is to concentrate the people who want to wall off their neighbors with other people who want to wall off their neighbors, so nobody has to look at the outside of someone else's wall.

(Incidentally, if you must have a wall on mainland, one of the major sellers has a row of low-LI trees on Marketplace that combine into a solid wall. This looks reasonable from both sides. Look up "Forest border wall")

[Sammy Huntsman]

6 minutes ago, animats said:

Once you put up your walls and your ban line, and turn off "look inside parcel", you're mostly isolated. The idea is to concentrate the people who want to wall off their neighbors with other people who want to wall off their neighbors, so nobody has to look at the outside of someone else's wall.

(Incidentally, if you must have a wall on mainland, one of the major sellers has a row of low-LI trees on Marketplace that combine into a solid wall. This looks reasonable from both sides. Look up "Forest border wall")

But I mean I feel like there is some interference there. I mean it is my land, and as long as it isn't considered harmful or disturbing to others. Then let me have the ability to have the freedom to choose what I put on my private land. 

[Rowan Amore]

24 minutes ago, animats said:

Once you put up your walls and your ban line, and turn off "look inside parcel", you're mostly isolated. The idea is to concentrate the people who want to wall off their neighbors with other people who want to wall off their neighbors, so nobody has to look at the outside of someone else's wall.

(Incidentally, if you must have a wall on mainland, one of the major sellers has a row of low-LI trees on Marketplace that combine into a solid wall. This looks reasonable from both sides. Look up "Forest border wall")

Are you talking about those huge ugly walls?  I don't see any of that on Horizons at least.  I have border walls around my parcel.  When I'm at home, my draw is at 32 so I don't see what the neighbors are doing most of the time.  If it's ugly, as the one neighbor's is now (rentals on 2 sides), I simply derender everything owned by them.  I feel plenty isolated smack dab in the middle of my ' neighborhood'.

[Gabriele Graves]

31 minutes ago, animats said:

Once you put up your walls and your ban line, and turn off "look inside parcel", you're mostly isolated.

No, that's just your interpretation.  There's nothing stopping people hopping over their own wall and travelling the roads near where they live, etc. and you don't know that they don't.  Perhaps in their misguided way they are trying to create a certain look when on their own land and the walls are decorative in their minds.
 

31 minutes ago, animats said:

The idea is to concentrate the people who want to wall off their neighbors with other people who want to wall off their neighbors, so nobody has to look at the outside of someone else's wall.

The idea is to force people you don't like off to some ghetto you deem appropriate, plain and simple.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[xDancingStarx]

You should come to mainland ground level to co-exist with your neighbors in a peaceful and respectful way. Yes, "you should". Because everything else doesn't make sense. Go build a skybox otherwise. And I question that everyone has this intention when they build on mainland ground. You put ugly AF 2D walls all around your property, means you don't want to see your neighbors, and you don't want to be seen, and, you don't care if your 2D walls look like crap for everyone else, which is everything but respectful. There's nothing wrong with building walls around your parcel that fit into the landscape. Any effing fine looking wall even. But people want to save prims, don't care what it looks like, and don't care what it looks like to others.

That said, while I've had experiences with this type of neighbor, I've also met way more people who do care and who do realize that mainland is a community. In the end this is a problem of "mindset" and can hardly be solved by rules. You forbid 2D walls, then what about ugly prim walls? And so on.. as I had said, as a solution Linden should just offer some great looking bases for decoration/parcel borders that don't count against prim limit, and people will be motivated to use those.

Edited October 4, 2022 by xDancingStarx

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Are you talking about those huge ugly walls?  I don't see any of that on Horizons at least.  I have border walls around my parcel.  When I'm at home, my draw is at 32 so I don't see what the neighbors are doing most of the time.  If it's ugly, as the one neighbor's is now (rentals on 2 sides), I simply derender everything owned by them.  I feel plenty isolated smack dab in the middle of my ' neighborhood'.

privacy walls and other bs are thankfully rare on horizons .. aside from all the copies of that one tack skyscraper that just barely fits one a 1024

Honestly, I had had the least neighbor trouble here in all my time in SL. All the freedom of mainland, all the roads and layout of Belli. I just wish there was more of it and fewer speculators playing pass the hot potato. 

 

[Gabriele Graves]

15 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

privacy walls and other bs are thankfully rare on horizons .. aside from all the copies of that one tack skyscraper that just barely fits one a 1024

Honestly, I had had the least neighbor trouble here in all my time in SL. All the freedom of mainland, all the roads and layout of Belli. I just wish there was more of it and fewer speculators playing pass the hot potato. 

 

Privacy walls are extremely rare at Nautilus City and Bay City as well.  In fact I would warrant that all double-prim land is relatively clear of issues like this.