It's the year 2022 and ............

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, Paulsian said:

I was nosing around the sl forums searching OpenSims / Open Simulators and found this semi-interesting thread.

I've been researching Open Simulators that do not require internet access and give free land and free to upload and test content. That are exactly like second life and they suggest to find solutions to any problems from second life sources...Really I can use this simulator without being involved with LL/SL! 

As a builder I only wish to develop my mesh building skill without any "community" "interactions". If I thought second life still had a soul & second life had option to have offline grid with local host that would be neat / private / secure I might have used it.

I only want to build and avoid interacting the SL "community".

I don't think it was smart for LL to open source their product. There are so many franken second life platforms out there with their own currency exchanges it's kind of crazy. 

Add your little comments and attack me all you want because you're likely possessed by demons. 

It would help if you knew the actual facts and didn't keep posting things that are simply not true. LL has never open sourced SL. Only parts of the viewer were open sourced for TPVs. Nothing else.

The originator of Kitley, Inworldz and all of those was "reverse engineered" (not exactly but close enough) from SL, not open sourced.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Sammy Huntsman]

On 2/7/2022 at 1:13 PM, Solar Legion said:

It's the year 2022 and there are still users that do not understand how Second Life works, that they know nothing concerning the costs of running it (never will either) and still believe in their magical "solutions" which will not work.

That and they don't really know the behind the scenes work, that creators who create for mesh bodies. How much time and work it takes to rig and other stuff. Yet feel like the creator should make for more bodies, as it would make them more money. When that is not exactly the case.

[Sammy Huntsman]

And some vegans don't understand about strawberry flavoured cows milk. Lol

 

[Alwin Alcott]

4 hours ago, Paulsian said:

 there are so so many third party second life copy cat grids out there.

I wonder if there are terms of service for the sl open source code?,

something like third parties may not form their own currency and take revenue away from Linden Lab? There has to be a lot of trust between the trusted 3rd party viewers to allow them access to the Linden systems. 

. 

If SL were to evolve and I was leading I would not open source SL2 and would not allow any third party anything. 

 

to the first : it are no copycats, but seperate developed grids, no LL code in it

the second: yes

the third: there are NO connections possible between SL and OS ( they did once for a short experiment but ended fast)
there are grids with currency, but totally standing alone, nobody can transfer currencies between SL and the OS grids.

you'r not leading and i doubt you will ever get "it" .
Running a OS grid, even on a stick, asks a little more than just clicking sign in on a viewer to SL.
Yes you can, but will be alone, if you want others join you ( yes thats possible) you'll need a lot more knowledge, and 24/7 running equipment.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Alwin Alcott

[Odaks]

It might help if the difference between a Simulator and a Viewer was better understood.

[StarlanderGoods]

This whole thread is like a fever dream

[Krystina Ferraris]

5 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Yes you can, but will be alone
 

That would totally suit him though, nobody will focus their crosshairs and security will be to his standards.

[Nagafusa Takeda]

Even the most put together and stable games lag like hell sometimes. consider:

 

getting a new pc

getting a better internet connection

maybe close those 5000 facebook tabs you have open, steve.

either way, a game no matter what it is will never be fully immune to lag, especially if its on pc.

[Myntz Mysterious]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:44 PM, Syo Emerald said:

You want to get rid of lag?

- Move the entire Second Life into the bin and make it from scratch.

- Never allow anyone ever to freely create something outside of putting premade assets together.

Ooooor you could just download the entire asset database to your computer... 😂

[Myntz Mysterious]

On 2/6/2022 at 7:16 PM, Lord Derryth said:

I've been in SL for 18 years.  SL is 3 months older than me.

This confuses me 😵 Are you saying you've been in SL since you were born??

[Krystina Ferraris]

20 minutes ago, Matilda Melune said:

This confuses me 😵 Are you saying you've been in SL since you were born??

His avatar was created 3 months after SL itself went online for the first time

[Paulsian]

18 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It would help if you knew the actual facts and didn't keep posting things that are simply not true. LL has never open sourced SL. Only parts of the viewer were open sourced for TPVs. Nothing else.

The originator of Kitley, Inworldz and all of those was "reverse engineered" (not exactly but close enough) from SL, not open sourced.

I'm trying to learn and do get dramatic (can't help it) Holy Prim so the Linden Lab Second Life Viewer is open source, but the simulator is not but Third Party Viewers that are trusted by LL/SL have Secondary Viewers that support reversed engineered simulators with their own currency?

[Madelaine McMasters]

34 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

I'm trying to learn and do get dramatic (can't help it) Holy Prim so the Linden Lab Second Life Viewer is open source, but the simulator is not but Third Party Viewers that are trusted by LL/SL have Secondary Viewers that support reversed engineered simulators with their own currency?

Chromium (Chrome) and Webkit (Safari, Edge) and Mozilla (Firefox) are open source foundations for numerous web browsers. Those browsers can be used to access banks and cryptocurrency exchanges around the world, each operating with their own currencies.

Does this bother you? If not, why does the virtual viewer/world dichotomy bother you?

Edited February 10, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Solar Legion]

Because Security Theater.

[Paulsian]

On 2/6/2022 at 6:42 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Mesh models can only have 8 texturable faces, what happens when you need more than 8 .. you use another mesh. Two meshes are more work than one mesh with double the detail. Scale this up to the number of faces a mesh body needs and we have a lot of meshes, with a lot of additional overhead, when really we should be able to have just one.

I agree I think SL should support mesh uploads with unlimited textured faces & if material is not set up in blender for each face SL should make all the faces of mesh objects modifiable by default. 

As far as lag when I disable transparent water helps a lot, world water is everywhere even underground maybe if water is not visible do not render might reduce lag? 

[Paulsian]

21 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

why does the virtual viewer/world dichotomy bother you?

It does not but if it was my revenue being leeched away I might want to learn more about it.  

[ChinRey]

32 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

I'm trying to learn and do get dramatic (can't help it) Holy Prim so the Linden Lab Second Life Viewer is open source, but the simulator is not but Third Party Viewers that are trusted by LL/SL have Secondary Viewers that support reversed engineered simulators with their own currency?

It's not at all unusual for big IT companies to base their products on open source software. Apple's OS X is a fork of the BSD operating system, Safari is basically just Apple's rebranding of the Konqueror browser and Android is Google's take on Linux, just to mention a few of the best known examples.

The SL viewer is a bit different from those examples since rather than adopting existing open source software, LL developed the viewer themselves and then made it open source. The idea was to leave much of the development to unpaid volunteers and I think it has worked. Several of the features of the official viewer are actually originally from some TPV and they must have saved quite a lot of development costs this way.

Of course, they didn't anticipate that somebody would use it as an opportunity to develop alternative server software to match but even if they had seen it coming, I still think it has been worth it for LL.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

It's not at all unusual for big IT companies to base their products on open source software. Apple's OS X is a fork of the BSD operating system, Safari is basically just Apple's rebranding of the Konqueror browser and Android is Google's take on Linux, just to mention a few of the best known examples.

The SL viewer is a bit different from those examples since rather than adopting existing open source software, LL developed the viewer themselves and then made it open source. The idea was to leave much of the development to unpaid volunteers and I think it has worked. Several of the features of the official viewer are actually originally from some TPV and they must have saved quite a lot of development costs this way.

Of course, they didn't anticipate that somebody would use it as an opportunity to develop alternative server software to match but even if they had seen it coming, I still think it has been worth it for LL.

Nothing you explained (which is largely wrong) is germane to the issue of viewers/browsers and the currencies within the systems they access. You're concerned about third party virtual world viewers ripping currency from virtual worlds, but not concerned about the much bigger "threat" posed by open source web browsers accessing financial institutions.

ETA: I'll leave this up as an example of how badly I can screw something up. I'd thought ChinRey's reply to me was from Paulsian. In that erroneous context I'll stand by my claims, even that the etiology of browser/OS development is more nuanced than Chin explained.

But, given that it wasn't Paulsian responding to me, my response makes very little sense.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Coffee Pancake]

34 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

It does not but if it was my revenue being leeched away I might want to learn more about it.  

If you use Catznip .. the water isn't rendered if you can't see any water. Because that's just how that should work.

[Paulsian]

25 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

The idea was to leave much of the development to unpaid volunteers and I think it has worked. Several of the features of the official viewer are actually originally from some TPV and they must have saved quite a lot of development costs this way.

Perhaps those unpaid volunteers figured out a way to get paid? And perhaps since they are trusted to add "features" to the official second life viewer somehow make it perform poorly vs their viewers that runs so much better would solve the lag questions? 

Is there a reason why LL Legal is not pursuing intellectual theft / damages for the reverse engineered modified simulators? 

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

And perhaps since they are trusted to add "features" to the official second life viewer somehow make it perform poorly vs their viewers that runs so much better would solve the lag questions? 

Those TPV people don't make the changes to the LL viewer.  They submit the TPV code for various functions/features to LL and sometimes LL adds it to their viewer.

[ChinRey]

34 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Nothing you explained (which is largely wrong) is germane to the issue of viewers/browsers and the currencies within the systems they access. You're concerned about third party virtual world viewers ripping currency from virtual worlds, but not concerned about the much bigger "threat" posed by open source web browsers accessing financial institutions.

Umm, Madelaine, was that really intended as a reply to my post? Some of it seems a little bit malapropos in that context.

[Madelaine McMasters]

Just now, ChinRey said:

Umm, Madelaine, was that really intended as a reply to my post? Some of it seems a little bit malapropos in that context.

Grrr, I should learn to read. You're right, it's probably more than a bit malapropos in that context.

Mea culpa, ChinRey.

[Coffee Pancake]

10 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Those TPV people don't make the changes to the LL viewer.  They submit the TPV code for various functions/features to LL and sometimes LL adds it to their viewer.

This is an important point .. code must be submitted from TPV's to LL including transferal of ownership (also require changes and porting to their formatting guidelines).

(LL can't pick and choose TPV features or code with out the submission process as that would taint their code and force them to always release as GPL.)

Seeing as this sounds a lot like working for LL without compensation (the submission process and required code changes/rewrite can be a lot of work), does anyone still wonder why so little TPV code gets submitted upstream?

[ChinRey]

14 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

Is there a reason why LL Legal is not pursuing intellectual theft / damages for the reverse engineered modified simulators? 

Yes. The opensim software does not use any code from Second Life. Nobody has the IP rights for the concept of a virtual world, only for the code they wrote to implement it.

Linden Lab and the OS Grid foundation have a fairly good relationship anyway. LL even used to have a liason developer who's main job was to maintain contact with the opensim people. I don't know if they still have one. The guy who originally had the job was promoted to CTO in 2014 and retired last year.