bigmoe Whitfield Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Lord Derryth said: You're not supposed to get lag on a sim you pay $300 a month with 30 people on site. Either low the cost or fix the issues. Again as was pointed out by Oz linden on labgab, the costs are higher for the lab now using aws, instead of having a physical datacenter, they will not be lowering the costs of land, and fixing the issue, it's been explained by myself and others. it's not going to work how you expect it too, lots of us are very much on the cutting edge with ue5 and other engines and most of us know exactly what we are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwin LeShelle Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 18 years have passed and yet we are still here..and you keep complaining which means you are staying also. So it can't be that bad. And nevertheless SL is still a platform like no other, that's the reason people stay. Go find a better one that is like SL. (And don't come at me with IMVU XD) So the Lab is still pretty much ahead of many things and they surely trying to fix the grid up as much as possible especially lately. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Me thinks the op needs to step back and take a break from SL. If SL bugs you that much, then you need to take a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said: I could imagine Bethesda's Creation Engine could handle it. I mean it has to contend with the dynamics of the modding community. As someone who has done large multi cell mods for skyrim, oblivion and morrowind which all use the creation engine, I can tell you that you are wrong. Bethesda's creation engine is no different to Second Life and if you have used their creation kit to do a mod you would realise this. Take Skyrim for instance. The main world is similar to mainland having cells instead of sims joined to each other whereby in the .ini file you can set cell range. Everything else is a separate cell not linked (like a region). The more cell range (draw distance) you have the more lag you have just like SL. Likewise, the more assets, larger textures and complex models that are placed in a non linked or linked cell the more lag there is and potential to crash the game. This is no different to Second Life. Using the default assets in Skyrim you can make a fast loading mod as the default BSA files compact many thousands of textures and meshes into one file therefore it makes the engine able to search and render those files instantly as they are loaded at game start-up. Any mod in Skyrim that adds additional textures/models that are not part of the BSA files increase the load time of cells while those assets are loaded. The only difference between the creation engine and SL other than streaming assets and the obvious things like script sizes, environment, etc, is that the creation engine allows the use of occlusion portals and planes which break up cells into smaller parts. If this was allowed in SL load times would improve INSANELY. The LOD system is also far superior where trees in the distance are rendered as billboards (2D planes) and those closer being full 3D. SL's LOD is still based on collapsing 3D objects rather than billboards. Take for instance a shopping mall that has multiple individual shop rooms. In the creation engine you can place a portal around each shop with a door plane at the entrance of each portal zone. Doing this means that everything in that portal isn't rendered until you enter the shop or you look through the door plane. Second Life's occlusion system is pathetic to the point it doesn't work and it runs on a proximity system. The closer you are to the object the quicker it is supposed to load even if that object (or avatar) is behind a 64x64m megaprim blocking your view. The viewer though is still downloading and rendering, just loading things closer quicker. The problem with this is that eventually EVERYTHING in the region is loaded, meaning your computer is rendering many, many thousands of individual complex meshes all at the same time, with many animating and running scripts, which impacts FPS. If Linden Lab were to, as part of the sim editing tools, make it possible for sim owners to use occlusion portals and planes (like creation engine and other engines like UE5) you would find your fps increase hugely. To put it simply, the room you're in would be the only room that has anything loaded and when you move to another room the objects are rendered in the new room your in and the objects in the room you left are derendered until you go back in that room or can see them. Same would apply to avatars. All other assets are gradually download in the background and added to your cache just not rendered until they are visible. It is these systems that make other games less laggy. As Coffee stated, it is the simplicity of LL's coding and allowances that are impacting detrimentally on Second Life. 2 hours ago, bigmoe Whitfield said: Again as was pointed out by Oz linden on labgab, the costs are higher for the lab now using aws, instead of having a physical datacenter, they will not be lowering the costs of land, and fixing the issue, it's been explained by myself and others. it's not going to work how you expect it too, lots of us are very much on the cutting edge with ue5 and other engines and most of us know exactly what we are saying. No, costs are higher because LL are running an always on system and refuse to change it. When Ebbe and his team announced the possible cost savings that could happen it was stated that it would only be possible if they have a hybrid system of some regions always on and others not used as much to spin up when visited similar to kitely, opensim, etc. If this system was introduced the cost saving would be there as Ebbe, et al .stated and intended. AWS runs on a $ per use system. If the servers are not on until they are used then LL dont pay any money. This is how Kitely manages to run their sims. They have cheaper options for spin up servers and a more expensive option (near same price as LL) for dedicated always on servers. Edited February 7, 2022 by Drayke Newall 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said: As someone who has done large multi cell mods for skyrim, oblivion and morrowind which all use the creation engine, I can tell you that you are wrong. Bethesda's creation engine is no different to Second Life and if you have used their creation kit to do a mod you would realise this. Creation Engine was used when Skyrim was released. Before that, Bethesda had a contract with Havok and used that engine for Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3. I would also say Fallout New Vegas, but obsidian created it, Bethesda was just the publisher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Corvinus Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said: AWS runs on a $ per use system. If the servers are not on until they are used then LL dont pay any money. This is how Kitely manages to run their sims. They have cheaper options for spin up servers and a more expensive option (near same price as LL) for dedicated always on servers. Uh, Kitely only charges a straight $150/mo for a dedicated server. 64 regions. 180k prims. Linden Lab charges a $350 setup fee and then you pay $229/mo for 1 region and 20k prims. They are no where near the same price. Edited February 7, 2022 by Chris Nova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sammy Huntsman said: Creation Engine was used when Skyrim was released. Before that, Bethesda had a contract with Havok and used that engine for Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3. I would also say Fallout New Vegas, but obsidian created it, Bethesda was just the publisher. No, the creation engine is a modified version of the Morrowind NetImmerse engine which was then rebranded as the Gamebryo engine when the creators of NetImmerse merged with another company around 2004. Bethesda continued to modify the NetImmerse (now Gamebryo engine) for Oblivion as per their license. When Skyrim was started in 2008, due to the amount of modifications to the NetImmerse engine they had done, most of the code was Bethesda's and therefore broke their license with Gamebryo allowing them to rename their forked engine to the Creation Engine. Its core architecture is the same though and dates back to 2002 the same period as second life's code. Due to it being the same core engine it also has the same issues as the original NetImmerse engine from 2002 such as being cell based loading with limits on how many NPC's can be in a cell at a time as well as other things. This is due to NPC's being treated by the engine the same as a player. Does this sound familiar to another engine? It should... Second Life suffers the same problem in that it to is based on cell (region) based loading and the way that each avatars meta-data is processed affects framerate as well as other key systems hence why it can only have a certain amount of avatars on the region or suffer bad framerate. For example, an avatar as well as its inventory in SL is reloaded every time an avatar crosses a region boundary, hence why you 'lag' across a sim border and sometimes appear as a cloud. This cannot be removed as it is hard coded into the cell based loading that most MMO games ran on in 2002/3. (SL is a little more complex in that whilst some regions are on the same server others are on completely other servers, but the system is very similar to how cell based loading works). Likewise both engines (Creation/NetImmerse and Second Life Engine) have certain things tied to the framerate such as physics calculations. Likewise the terrain is a heightmap-based terrain generator meaning only one axis of terrain modification (up, down, left, right) so caves and cliffs are very difficult to make well and look good without assets. These are the limitations of the creation engine as well as SL's engine that cannot be removed without a complete rewrite as they are hardcoded. This is why many of us wanted a SL2, an exact copy of SL but on a newer engine. We got Sansar instead, a complete opposite of SL. That all said it is irrelevant to your point. Both the creation engine and second life run the same way even down to their core architecture as explained above. The difference being LL refusal to update (modify) the systems they can to be better like Bethesda did due to LL not wanting to break content. Edited February 7, 2022 by Drayke Newall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Chris Nova said: Uh, Kitely only charges a straight $150/mo for a dedicated server. 64 regions. 180k prims. Linden Lab charges a $350 setup fee and then you pay $229/mo for 1 region and 20k prims. They are no where near the same price. I know, they are far superior in some region things compared to LL but what I meant was that a dedicated server is far more expensive than their spin up-servers. $15 (comparable to LL 1 region server) compared to $150. Also keep in mind that their servers are slightly different, for example their cheapest option which has the same land, prims, etc. as LL's regions only allow for 10 avatars and their dedicated allows for 80 avatars over the entire 64 regions not just 1 region. Edited February 7, 2022 by Drayke Newall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said: Oh no .. the lag .. lets see who we can blame .. CONTENT CREATORS ! Ha ! That will show them. I'm not blameing anyone (Also just to be clear, because it pet peeves me right now: "Content creator" is not some elusive, secluded group. At one point we all could create). I'm pointing out that the nature of SL to let its content be entirely user created is a reason when it comes to lag. LL doesn't step in and doesn't view itself as a content provider. Thats why the SL standard body is what it is and why we are at the same time allowed to have all those systems. They are messy because they are unregulated, free growing user content. And since nothing comes from LL, nothing can be preloaded so it gets laggy, when you arive in a place full of stuff. Second Life is like a wild garden, that has been left to its own devices for almost two decades. At some point garden owner LL threw in some fertilizer and made sure their is enough soil and sometimes he would throw in some seeds to see what would grow out of them. Now its a jungle and it gets really difficult to reach anything within that garden. The garden owner could cut down some vegetation, but notices there are rare wildflowers growing among the weeds and some endangered species have found a habitat in the garden. And so he trades the comfort for the beauty of whats already there. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finite Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 27 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said: Second Life is like a wild garden, that has been left to its own devices for almost two decades. At some point garden owner LL threw in some fertilizer and made sure their is enough soil and sometimes he would throw in some seeds to see what would grow out of them. Now its a jungle and it gets really difficult to reach anything within that garden. The garden owner could cut down some vegetation, but notices there are rare wildflowers growing among the weeds and some endangered species have found a habitat in the garden. And so he trades the comfort for the beauty of whats already there. Now I am beginning to think SL is responsible for my backyard. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick0678 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Syo Emerald said: Second Life is like a wild garden, that has been left to its own devices for almost two decades. At some point garden owner LL threw in some fertilizer and made sure their is enough soil and sometimes he would throw in some seeds to see what would grow out of them. Now its a jungle and it gets really difficult to reach anything within that garden. The garden owner could cut down some vegetation, but notices there are rare wildflowers growing among the weeds and some endangered species have found a habitat in the garden. And so he trades the comfort for the beauty of whats already there. Yeah well idk.. thinking of it as an abandoned garden reminds me more something like this... (*contaminated with rats, snakes and abandoned vehicles. it's been so abandoned that probably needs a warant in order to clean it) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arduenn Schwartzman Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 No matter how fast and optimized the tech, if 99% of all it's content will be provided by the users, it'll remain 'laggy'. "Notice how the sim got bigger and faster?" "Yeah! Let's rez out more s***!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marigold Devin Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 7 hours ago, Lord Derryth said: I can feel the hate coming from some of you. I asked to be educated not attacked. I've been in SL for 18 years. SL is 3 months older than me. I've seen it grow from start to now. I assure you, I expected more in the sense of stability. "it's a browser." I don't care what it is. The level of creation and ideas they had for SL throughout the years will not work with what they are doing. You're not supposed to get lag on a sim you pay $300 a month with 30 people on site. Either low the cost or fix the issues. Again, it's 2022. Technology is beyond what we expected. Here is Linden Labs ........ excuse me for those offended...... I mean LL creating a virtual world in VR and failed. Should have considered making a Second Life V2. I'm not an expert in creation of this stuff. I do know technology is growing and things are changing. Second Life ......sorry again I mean SL is continuing to live in the past. No hate from me. Hate is such an over-used word. BUT you did get my heckles up slightly. I will always defend something or someone I have grown fond of. Opinions, differences of opinions. That's all I see in this thread. And I'm being educated too, especially by those who do know what they're talking about, the ones involved with third party viewers for example, anyone who actually does have a technical brain and understands more about how all the cogs turn within our virtual world. You perhaps expect too much. Perhaps I don't expect enough. Too much change of the wrong kind alienates too many people. Slowly slowly catchy monkey. Don't be sorry. Do keep your mind open. Do keep talking. Here. In User Groups. Even in letters to Linden Lab. Second Life can't continue to live in the past, as technology changes, and it has to tweak and modify and adapt like the rest of the world. And look how many other virtual worlds have started and ended because they actually couldn't keep up with Second Life or didn't gain enough users. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 13 hours ago, Lord Derryth said: How could UE5 utilize today's technology with massive objects in one area with no lag and use realistic looking textures. Because it's a fixed environment stored locally made by professionals. Any other questions? 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, shireena1 said: Its the year 2022 and.... People are still getting covid, And I am still seeing shortages of things like toilet paper! You need to install a bidet - seriously. I installed one to take the place of my toilet seat and lid and I still haven't run out of toilet paper since before the first lockdown. I won't go into details in case anyone has a queasy disposition but 2 sheets of paper, followed by water, and then soap and water, all while seated, means that the bidet pays for itself in no time because toilet paper isn't cheap. And, of course, there's the super cleanliness 😁 Edited February 7, 2022 by Phil Deakins 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 13 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: I won't go into details in case anyone has a queasy disposition ... goes into details ANYWAY But really, get a bidet. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 It's the year 2022 and there are still users that do not understand how Second Life works, that they know nothing concerning the costs of running it (never will either) and still believe in their magical "solutions" which will not work. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Solar Legion said: It's the year 2022 and there are still users that do not understand how Second Life works, that they know nothing concerning the costs of running it (never will either) and still believe in their magical "solutions" which will not work. That and they don't really know the behind the scenes work, that creators who create for mesh bodies. How much time and work it takes to rig and other stuff. Yet feel like the creator should make for more bodies, as it would make them more money. When that is not exactly the case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 23 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: do not understand how Second Life works, that they know nothing concerning the costs of running it I'm guilty of this one, I try not to make a big fuss over the cost of land but it still leaves my mind boggled when I think of how much land in SL costs a month. At least it is not as bad as some other VR worlds out there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said: I won't go into details in case anyone has a queasy disposition ... goes into details ANYWAY I didn't think it was too descriptive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finite Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Honestly, just updating the viewers to take advantage of multiple cores, modern GPUs, and modern multi connection Internet would go a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 15 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: Honestly, just updating the viewers to take advantage of multiple cores, modern GPUs, and modern multi connection Internet would go a long way. I'd like my landlord to fix the banging pipes and actual pot hole in the corridor outside my apartment, but so long as the pipes still work and no one steals the road cone it's not happening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmoe Whitfield Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 15 hours ago, Drayke Newall said: As someone who has done large multi cell mods for skyrim, oblivion and morrowind which all use the creation engine, I can tell you that you are wrong. Bethesda's creation engine is no different to Second Life and if you have used their creation kit to do a mod you would realise this. Take Skyrim for instance. The main world is similar to mainland having cells instead of sims joined to each other whereby in the .ini file you can set cell range. Everything else is a separate cell not linked (like a region). The more cell range (draw distance) you have the more lag you have just like SL. Likewise, the more assets, larger textures and complex models that are placed in a non linked or linked cell the more lag there is and potential to crash the game. This is no different to Second Life. Using the default assets in Skyrim you can make a fast loading mod as the default BSA files compact many thousands of textures and meshes into one file therefore it makes the engine able to search and render those files instantly as they are loaded at game start-up. Any mod in Skyrim that adds additional textures/models that are not part of the BSA files increase the load time of cells while those assets are loaded. The only difference between the creation engine and SL other than streaming assets and the obvious things like script sizes, environment, etc, is that the creation engine allows the use of occlusion portals and planes which break up cells into smaller parts. If this was allowed in SL load times would improve INSANELY. The LOD system is also far superior where trees in the distance are rendered as billboards (2D planes) and those closer being full 3D. SL's LOD is still based on collapsing 3D objects rather than billboards. Take for instance a shopping mall that has multiple individual shop rooms. In the creation engine you can place a portal around each shop with a door plane at the entrance of each portal zone. Doing this means that everything in that portal isn't rendered until you enter the shop or you look through the door plane. Second Life's occlusion system is pathetic to the point it doesn't work and it runs on a proximity system. The closer you are to the object the quicker it is supposed to load even if that object (or avatar) is behind a 64x64m megaprim blocking your view. The viewer though is still downloading and rendering, just loading things closer quicker. The problem with this is that eventually EVERYTHING in the region is loaded, meaning your computer is rendering many, many thousands of individual complex meshes all at the same time, with many animating and running scripts, which impacts FPS. If Linden Lab were to, as part of the sim editing tools, make it possible for sim owners to use occlusion portals and planes (like creation engine and other engines like UE5) you would find your fps increase hugely. To put it simply, the room you're in would be the only room that has anything loaded and when you move to another room the objects are rendered in the new room your in and the objects in the room you left are derendered until you go back in that room or can see them. Same would apply to avatars. All other assets are gradually download in the background and added to your cache just not rendered until they are visible. It is these systems that make other games less laggy. As Coffee stated, it is the simplicity of LL's coding and allowances that are impacting detrimentally on Second Life. No, costs are higher because LL are running an always on system and refuse to change it. When Ebbe and his team announced the possible cost savings that could happen it was stated that it would only be possible if they have a hybrid system of some regions always on and others not used as much to spin up when visited similar to kitely, opensim, etc. If this system was introduced the cost saving would be there as Ebbe, et al .stated and intended. AWS runs on a $ per use system. If the servers are not on until they are used then LL dont pay any money. This is how Kitely manages to run their sims. They have cheaper options for spin up servers and a more expensive option (near same price as LL) for dedicated always on servers. The physical data center was less expensive for them. aws as said by oz LL pays more. right out of the horses mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 37 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said: The physical data center was less expensive for them. aws as said by oz LL pays more. right out of the horses mouth. The datacenter tied the product to a physical location full of aging hardware, it wasn't expensive finically, but it was a business roadblock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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