Lord Derryth Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 18 years have passed, and we are in the year 2022. Second Life still lags and remains to have issues. Linden Labs falling behind on technology? Someone educate me the logic behind all this. How could UE5 utilize today's technology with massive objects in one area with no lag and use realistic looking textures. Here we are in a virtual world struggling daily for the last 18 years wondering if change will ever come. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finite Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 (edited) Lag is going to be a thing until technology catches up with what they are trying to produce. Not very much of SL is stored locally. It's all on the internet. Secondlife is basically a webpage and you are walking through a 3d rendering of it. It's constantly rendering and derendering. If we could somehow have some of our favorite places and things stored locally it would run similar to how high end games run. But that would basically make it easier for creative content to be datamined than it already is. So it's quite the catch 22. edit: * I'm not a techy by any means. I am just looking at it logically and basing it off what little I know *. Edited February 6, 2022 by Finite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 You want to get rid of lag? - Move the entire Second Life into the bin and make it from scratch. - Never allow anyone ever to freely create something outside of putting premade assets together. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryanne Solo Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 Linden Lag are doing just fine thank you very much. 🙄😂 2 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marigold Devin Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Lord Derryth said: 18 years have passed, and we are in the year 2022. Second Life still lags and remains to have issues. Linden Labs falling behind on technology? Someone educate me the logic behind all this. How could UE5 utilize today's technology with massive objects in one area with no lag and use realistic looking textures. Here we are in a virtual world struggling daily for the last 18 years wondering if change will ever come. 18 years have passed and some people still refer to them as Linden LabS ! A Linden once told me that it's very difficult to modify a running program, and I believe that. I also believe my glass is half full and I don't find it half as laggy as I used to - mind you, that may have something to do with me having a much better internet connection where I currently live and a slightly better computer (only a second hand reconditioned one from a school, but it does what I need it to do). There are often vacancies listed on Linden Lab's website if you think you're up for the challenge, Lord Derryth. Struggling in a virtual world is a first world problem really. I'm a bit more worried about how I'm going to cover fuel costs in real life from this April onwards. Edited February 6, 2022 by Marigold Devin Oh bugger, I sound a bit snarky. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaithLynnSayes Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 Second Life by nature is a pretty difficult thing to update. It's content is user created. Updating that platform, you have to make really sure you're not going to break something that was made 20 years ago, and it does happen on occasion that something (older) does break. I fully understand this ballance game LL has to constantly play but i fear that eventually something will have to give at some point. I don't know what, and i think LL also doesn't know at this point. All i "think" is that we are eventually heading for a tipping point and LL will have to do something drastically at some point. I'd like to think they tried that a couple of years ago with Sansar but it didn't pan out because... well, it wasn't Second Life as we know it. I don't want to be skeptical but if SL would reboot in some form, it will still suffer from "user created content" and trying to maintain it. TL;DR: I know what you're saying and have thought about it too, but i don't know exactly what the answer is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 And we're still all here... 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lord Derryth said: How could UE5 utilize today's technology with massive objects in one area with no lag and use realistic looking textures. Tell me you know nothing about how UE5, Nanite or Second Life work without saying you don't know how any of this works. Here we go again ... UE5 & nanite are very impressive allowing developers an almost unlimited polygon budget for real time rendered content .. it is very good for very specific use cases and comes with a laundry list of technical considerations. It is not a magic one size fits all band-aid that can be applied to all content under all circumstances. 2 hours ago, Syo Emerald said: You want to get rid of lag? - Move the entire Second Life into the bin and make it from scratch. - Never allow anyone ever to freely create something outside of putting premade assets together. Oh no .. the lag .. lets see who we can blame .. CONTENT CREATORS ! Ha ! That will show them. The vast majority of models uploaded to SL are fine. Really, quite fine. Some are a little over detailed, some are fugly, and almost all of them have overly aggressive LOD models because the creator was trying to hit an arbitrary Li target rather that do what worked best for the model. There are a few edge cases .. but they aren't the problem. The problems with rendering lag are systemic and involve several different sub systems. Mesh models can only have 8 texturable faces, what happens when you need more than 8 .. you use another mesh. Two meshes are more work than one mesh with double the detail. Scale this up to the number of faces a mesh body needs and we have a lot of meshes, with a lot of additional overhead, when really we should be able to have just one. Animating meshes is expensive. The more meshes (not objects, meshes, one object can be many meshes) we need to animate, the more time the viewer needs to spend each and every frame doping that rather than drawing pixels or fetching textures. Get a crowd or people together with any of the top mesh bodies and there goes your frame rate. The consumer fix is to use a BOM ONLY body (like Kupra). The systemic fix is for LL to vastly increase the number of texture faces a mesh can have so mesh body creators can update their bodies and stop killing things working around a limitation that dates back to prims. Textures lag, because each and every texture has to be downloaded and decoded individually before it can be shoved on your screen. This is a lot of work, if the viewer was more aggressive it would overwhelm your router (like it used to!!). The consumer fix is to build places with texture downloading in mind, avoid huge contagious spaces with hundreds of objects hidden indoors or behind walls that no one will see. Discreate separate locations placed outside of each others draw distance. The systemic fix is to make cache in the viewer faster than downloading from scratch, allow larger textures uploads so more data can be packed into a single file (because again, two are more than twice as heavy as one twice as big. this is also way faster to render). Guess what the viewer isn't doing when it's doing all the stuff above? Rendering !! Scripts lag .. because .. scripts are too small. So we need to use 4 .. 5 scripts to do something that one script twice as large could do. As we spotting a trend here .. a systemic limitation leading to workarounds that come with massive overheads. There is no consumer fix. LL need to make scripts bigger .. we've only been asking since day one. As an aside, large crowds would lag on any platform. Get a hundred or more people on screen all moving about doing there own thing and you're going to need some pretty special net code to make that work. Many more and you're doomed to failure. No one has solved this problem. This is why games use sharding to clone copies of an area over and over .. hey what if we could do that for big shopping events.. Or we could just blame one specific person nearby based on an arbitrary number over their head that their shoes have too many triangles or something. (but really .. it's not the UGC nature of the content .. most of our triangles are just fine, very pointy in fact) Edited February 7, 2022 by Coffee Pancake 11 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmoe Whitfield Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I've noticed in the last few months or so, people are coming in begging for a UE5 engine for SL, you can not DO that, there is no way of converting everything to it, and I'm sure not going to be losing 14 years worth of work and progress and nobody else is either, current lag is client side rendering, people believe because they ahve the best of the best or can play AAA video games that SL should work just as smoothly, wrong. To get the best SL you have to give in and lower your expeitations and lower the system preferences on the viewer if you want to have a good time. I have a very specific build for VR, the system has zero issues any place online, it has issues in SL, I've learned how to accomidate it with making the viewer not work as much, Turn off shadows, the fps will increase, drop draw distance, fps will increase. Complexity and LOD are always going to be an issue and you will always take a hit with it, that is the nature of the beast with SL and always will be. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Corvinus Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Syo Emerald said: - Never allow anyone ever to freely create something outside of putting premade assets together. Thats what alot do anyways. Half the time you see the same mesh retextured a hundred times. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarlanderGoods Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 15 minutes ago, Chris Nova said: Thats what alot do anyways. Half the time you see the same mesh retextured a hundred times. No, you are wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Corvinus Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 14 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said: No, you are wrong. Nope, I've seen a lot things at events have the same mesh just retextured or slightly altered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarlanderGoods Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, Chris Nova said: Nope, I've seen a lot things at events have the same mesh just retextured or slightly altered. Yes, some people sell full perm mesh and people retexture them and sell them, but they are a drop in a bucket of original meshes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Corvinus Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said: Yes, some people sell full perm mesh and people retexture them and sell them, but they are a drop in a bucket of original meshes I don't think they are a drop in the bucket. But yes, there are more original mesh creators. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finite Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 22 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said: Yes, some people sell full perm mesh and people retexture them and sell them, but they are a drop in a bucket of original meshes They are more prevalent than you think. More so with clothing considering a few of the popular body makers require you to be "established" prior to granting you access to their rigs. Meaning you're stuck with generic rigs or premade mesh in the mean time. Anytime I see an outfit offered in like 10 different rigs, most of which aren't even used much anymore, that's a huge sign to me that it is a premade. Even original creators use premade mesh time to time 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said: I've noticed in the last few months or so, people are coming in begging for a UE5 engine for SL, you can not DO that, there is no way of converting everything to it, and I'm sure not going to be losing 14 years worth of work and progress and nobody else is either, current lag is client side rendering, people believe because they ahve the best of the best or can play AAA video games that SL should work just as smoothly, wrong. To get the best SL you have to give in and lower your expeitations and lower the system preferences on the viewer if you want to have a good time. Game engines would choke on SL, not because our content is special anything, but because of how that content can be dynamic one frame to the next. It's like getting F1 car and then finding our we're going off road. I stand to be corrected. The viewer is open source, plenty of game engines now, all free to pick up play with (some even open source like Godot). There is also a lot that SL handles poorly, fundamental design decisions have been allowed to persist forever with the excuse that LL are preserving backwards compatibility. SL's architecture could be extended to allow replacement systems to coexist with legacy ones. It's just code. As much as I'm for content having a shelf life, there is no reason why we cant have "prims 2.0" or "animations 2.0" existing side by side with OG content (LL already did this with LSO and Mono) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 30 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Game engines would choke on SL, not because our content is special anything, but because of how that content can be dynamic one frame to the next. It's like getting F1 car and then finding our we're going off road. I stand to be corrected. The viewer is open source, plenty of game engines now, all free to pick up play with (some even open source like Godot). There is also a lot that SL handles poorly, fundamental design decisions have been allowed to persist forever with the excuse that LL are preserving backwards compatibility. SL's architecture could be extended to allow replacement systems to coexist with legacy ones. It's just code. As much as I'm for content having a shelf life, there is no reason why we cant have "prims 2.0" or "animations 2.0" existing side by side with OG content (LL already did this with LSO and Mono) I don't know about no engine. I could imagine Bethesda's Creation Engine could handle it. I mean it has to contend with the dynamics of the modding community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shireena1 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Its the year 2022 and.... People are still getting covid, And I am still seeing shortages of things like toilet paper! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Derryth Posted February 7, 2022 Author Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) I can feel the hate coming from some of you. I asked to be educated not attacked. I've been in SL for 18 years. SL is 3 months older than me. I've seen it grow from start to now. I assure you, I expected more in the sense of stability. "it's a browser." I don't care what it is. The level of creation and ideas they had for SL throughout the years will not work with what they are doing. You're not supposed to get lag on a sim you pay $300 a month with 30 people on site. Either low the cost or fix the issues. Again, it's 2022. Technology is beyond what we expected. Here is Linden Labs ........ excuse me for those offended...... I mean LL creating a virtual world in VR and failed. Should have considered making a Second Life V2. I'm not an expert in creation of this stuff. I do know technology is growing and things are changing. Second Life ......sorry again I mean SL is continuing to live in the past. Edited February 7, 2022 by Lord Derryth 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, Lord Derryth said: Should have considered making a Second Life V2. That is exactly what they did. Sansar was SL with all of the lessons leant from SL applied. No streaming content - because delivery will always be too slow and unpacking will always be CPU intensive. No adult content - because ewwwww, cooties .. and inevitable sordid headlines. No persistent grid - because why have a server running when no one is using it, this is why land in SL is expensive. Baked locations and lighting - SL is 100% dynamic, but 99% of the time it's not actually needed. Sansar ran like a game, fast and pretty. Different avatar & dress up system - because no one would design what we have on purpose without a doctors note. Etc etc .. and look how well we liked it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryanne Solo Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I certainly didn't mean to belittle you or your opinion with my Linden Lag comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 No one attacked you, just sayin. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finite Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 5 hours ago, Lord Derryth said: 18 years have passed, and we are in the year 2022. Second Life still lags and remains to have issues. Linden Labs falling behind on technology? Someone educate me the logic behind all this. How could UE5 utilize today's technology with massive objects in one area with no lag and use realistic looking textures. Here we are in a virtual world struggling daily for the last 18 years wondering if change will ever come. Have you ever come to the forums and posted anything that wasn't complaining massively about SL? I can't find anything positive in your post history. Not really sure why you hang around if it is always so horrid. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 54 minutes ago, Lord Derryth said: I can feel the hate coming from some of you. I asked to be educated not attacked. See my previous post, just above this one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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