What has happened to Aeros?

Rowan Amore · February 13, 2022

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

She said:

Any means any.. Not just a range of skins that are made for it. if I slap on a drow skin from Nomine that's 10 years old, will it match? I doubt it.

Exactly. Would it even cover an add on not originally included on the UV mapping? Maybe skin creators will start including a universal layer with their skin for the add on as they do with ears.

Kytteh Wytchwood · February 14, 2022

16 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

She said:

Any means any.. Not just a range of skins that are made for it. if I slap on a drow skin from Nomine that's 10 years old, will it match? I doubt it.

I said bom skin, not outdated classic skins. A classic skin will not align correctly on a mesh body because it was created for the classic avatar. There is a bakes on mesh feature option for the P.

I read the marketplace listing. It says on the photos, "option to apply custom skins" and inside the Details section it says, "bom tattoo layer".

Qie Niangao · February 14, 2022

18 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Maybe skin creators will start including a universal layer with their skin for the add on as they do with ears.

2 hours ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

I said bom skin, not outdated classic skins. A classic skin will not align correctly on a mesh body because it was created for the classic avatar. There is a bakes on mesh feature option for the P.

I read the marketplace listing. It says on the photos, "option to apply custom skins" and inside the Details section it says, "bom tattoo layer".

Does anybody have this thing and can test what this actually means? The universal layer approach @Rowan Amore describes would seem the right way to do it, but of course that's not included in BoM skins, so I'm still not understanding the claim that this one is any better than any other at handling BoM skins—or, for that matter, how BoM is even relevant to whatever it's doing unless it uses that universal layer approach.

Seems to me that a "classic skin will not align correctly on a mesh body" is true, but it's also true that a BoM skin that aligns with one mesh body won't align with another because the mesh body creators play fast and loose with UV maps. I've always assumed that mesh body UVs are (imprecisely) based on that of the classic body, since long before BoM, and certainly unchanged when BoM was introduced. In my experience, my ancient "classic" skins align every bit as well worn on any mesh body as does a Legacy-mapped skin, say, worn on a Signature body, or vice versa—which is to say, not very well at all.

Point being, it's not clear to me what a skin-matching claim for any SL genitalia could mean. Maybe I'm missing something.

Kytteh Wytchwood · February 14, 2022

49 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Does anybody have this thing and can test what this actually means? The universal layer approach @Rowan Amore describes would seem the right way to do it, but of course that's not included in BoM skins, so I'm still not understanding the claim that this one is any better than any other at handling BoM skins—or, for that matter, how BoM is even relevant to whatever it's doing unless it uses that universal layer approach.

Seems to me that a "classic skin will not align correctly on a mesh body" is true, but it's also true that a BoM skin that aligns with one mesh body won't align with another because the mesh body creators play fast and loose with UV maps. I've always assumed that mesh body UVs are (imprecisely) based on that of the classic body, since long before BoM, and certainly unchanged when BoM was introduced. In my experience, my ancient "classic" skins align every bit as well worn on any mesh body as does a Legacy-mapped skin, say, worn on a Signature body, or vice versa—which is to say, not very well at all.

Point being, it's not clear to me what a skin-matching claim for any SL genitalia could mean. Maybe I'm missing something.

I own the Physics but I don't use it. I also own the V and have used it. The V does have bom enabled so that you can use any bom skin made for a mesh body with it. I had gone to the marketplace listing to make sure it really is bom enabled.

I think the P is only created by ASA, while the V is made by both ASA and Session skins.

Drake1 Nightfire · February 14, 2022

3 hours ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

I said bom skin, not outdated classic skins. A classic skin will not align correctly on a mesh body because it was created for the classic avatar. There is a bakes on mesh feature option for the P.

I read the marketplace listing. It says on the photos, "option to apply custom skins" and inside the Details section it says, "bom tattoo layer".

A BoM skin still uses the SLuv. You old "classic" skins use the very same SLuv. BoM skins align the very same as old skins do. The only difference is that the new BOM skins just have smooth unshaded fingers and toes.

47 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Does anybody have this thing and can test what this actually means? The universal layer approach @Rowan Amore describes would seem the right way to do it, but of course that's not included in BoM skins, so I'm still not understanding the claim that this one is any better than any other at handling BoM skins—or, for that matter, how BoM is even relevant to whatever it's doing unless it uses that universal layer approach.

Seems to me that a "classic skin will not align correctly on a mesh body" is true, but it's also true that a BoM skin that aligns with one mesh body won't align with another because the mesh body creators play fast and loose with UV maps. I've always assumed that mesh body UVs are (imprecisely) based on that of the classic body, since long before BoM, and certainly unchanged when BoM was introduced. In my experience, my ancient "classic" skins align every bit as well worn on any mesh body as does a Legacy-mapped skin, say, worn on a Signature body, or vice versa—which is to say, not very well at all.

Point being, it's not clear to me what a skin-matching claim for any SL genitalia could mean. Maybe I'm missing something.

I got the demo.. It doesnt change when you wear a Classic skin or a BOM skin. I refuse to buy the full one to test that feature as the rest of the P is pretty garbage. Weird shapes, lack of adjustability of length/girth, and it simply being new, does not make a quality bit.

1 minute ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

I own the Physics but I don't use it. I also own the V and have used it. The V does have bom enabled so that you can use any bom skin made for a mesh body with it. I had gone to the marketplace listing to make sure it really is bom enabled.

I think the P is only created by ASA, while the V is made by both ASA and Session skins.

The P cant change skins when you wear one as there is no SLuv for male bits. The reason the V changes to match is that area is covered by a SLuv. Just like every other male bit, if you want the skin to match, you have to texture the bit separately. Female classic skins have painted on ladybits. Male skins look like ken dolls.

I suppose the P could use the smooth area down there for a base skin and have a secondary layer with texture and veins... And another for tattoos.. Yeah, lets just crack up the ARC and have more onion layer parts while we are getting rid of that issue with the rest of the body.. Seems like a few steps backwards to me.

Wulfie Reanimator · February 14, 2022

To rephrase (and reaffirm) what Drake said; BOM has nothing to do with how textures align with mesh.

That is the responsibility of the individual piece of mesh itself, and the responsibility of the texture creator to match how the mesh wants the texture to fit onto itself.

"BOM skins" or layers don't guarantee that textures will work with whatever you're wearing, regardless of whether it comes "BOM enabled" or not.

BOM can be used for literally any kind of textures or avatars. A 6-legged dragon with wings can be fully BOM-compatible, for example. It seems like this isn't really understood.

Drake1 Nightfire · February 14, 2022

52 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

To rephrase (and reaffirm) what Drake said; BOM has nothing to do with how textures align with mesh.

That is the responsibility of the individual piece of mesh itself, and the responsibility of the texture creator to match how the mesh wants the texture to fit onto itself.

"BOM skins" or layers don't guarantee that textures will work with whatever you're wearing, regardless of whether it comes "BOM enabled" or not.

BOM can be used for literally any kind of textures or avatars. A 6-legged dragon with wings can be fully BOM-compatible, for example. It seems like this isn't really understood.

Thank you, i had yet to have a cuppa.

From what i understand about mesh parts of any sort, for BOM to work they have to be scripted to listen for a specific layer to be applied? Like, the mesh torso listens for a upper body texture to be applied and then uses that UUid for the mesh part. I think? So theoretically you could have a mesh P use the head texture, for an example. I dont know if they can "listen/apply" only a certain place on a texture.

Someone who does this stuff for a living would have a lot more specific info.

All i know is that my ancient Nomine skins work just fine on my Slink male body.

Rowan Amore · February 14, 2022

1 hour ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

I think the P is only created by ASA, while the V is made by both ASA and Session skins

This product was made in partnership with SESSION SKINS! From their MP ad which is why I mentioned it.

Wulfie Reanimator · February 14, 2022

5 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Thank you, i had yet to have a cuppa.

From what i understand about mesh parts of any sort, for BOM to work they have to be scripted to listen for a specific layer to be applied? Like, the mesh torso listens for a upper body texture to be applied and then uses that UUid for the mesh part. I think? So theoretically you could have a mesh P use the head texture, for an example. I dont know if they can "listen/apply" only a certain place on a texture.

Someone who does this stuff for a living would have a lot more specific info.

All i know is that my ancient Nomine skins work just fine on my Slink male body.

There's not much to it. BOM uses a "magic" (technical term -- not kidding) UUID for the texture. (The UUID is always the same, but what it shows will change based on what layers are worn and who is wearing them.)

This texture UUID can be set with the built-in tools of the viewer. Official viewer, Firestorm, whatever. It can also be set by scripts, which can be more convenient. Any applier script can be used to apply the BOM texture UUID.

image.png.3d280755555892a6dad50ce9a5a465c8.png

All of the information can be found below, but in short, there are four useful textures that the LL body uses:

BAKE_HEAD (5a9f4a74-30f2-821c-b88d-70499d3e7183)
BAKE_UPPER (ae2de45c-d252-50b8-5c6e-19f39ce79317)
BAKE_LOWER (24daea5f-0539-cfcf-047f-fbc40b2786ba)
BAKE_EYES (52cc6bb6-2ee5-e632-d3ad-50197b1dcb8a)

Edited February 14, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator

Kytteh Wytchwood · February 14, 2022

7 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

To rephrase (and reaffirm) what Drake said; BOM has nothing to do with how textures align with mesh.

That is the responsibility of the individual piece of mesh itself, and the responsibility of the texture creator to match how the mesh wants the texture to fit onto itself.

"BOM skins" or layers don't guarantee that textures will work with whatever you're wearing, regardless of whether it comes "BOM enabled" or not.

BOM can be used for literally any kind of textures or avatars. A 6-legged dragon with wings can be fully BOM-compatible, for example. It seems like this isn't really understood.

It does if the body has its own uv map outside of the sl classic uv map. I tried a classic skin with a mesh body and the nipples were in the wrong place as well as body markings; highlights, shadows and so on.

The skin creators were only creating for the classic avatar.

When I wear the V and enable bom for it, it matches perfectly with the bom skin I am wearing for the specific body I am wearing.

I cannot wear a bom skin made for maitreya on the legacy body for example. It will not be aligned properly, as each skin created is made for a particular body's uv map.

No idea why you don't know this?

The V is made for specific bodies, each in its own listing. I only use the V for legacy as it's rigged to the legacy. when I wear a body skin painted for legacy, I use that with the V.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Kytteh Wytchwood
more info

Drake1 Nightfire · February 14, 2022

3 minutes ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

It does if the body has its own uv map outside of the sl classic uv map. I tried a classic skin with a mesh body and the nipples were in the wrong place as well as body markings; highlights, shadows and so on.

The skin creators were only creating for the classic avatar.

When I wear the V and enable bom for it, it matches perfectly with the bom skin I am wearing for the specific body I am wearing.

I cannot wear a bom skin made for maitreya on the legacy body for example. It will not be aligned properly, as each skin created is made for a particular body's uv map.

No idea why you don't know this?

The V is made for specific bodies, each in its own listing. I only use the V for legacy as it's rigged to the legacy. when I wear a body skin painted for legacy, I use that with the V.

Sadly, you are wrong.

Its not the skin that is the issue, its the mesh body. The Legacy mesh body has its own UV as does the Aesthetic. Maitreya, Slink, Belleeza all use the SLuv. There is NO SLuv for mesh adult bits. If the mesh body is made to line up with the SLuv then any classic skin will work with it.

Solar Legion · February 14, 2022

Hmm, funny .... The skins I use for my own avatars (as shared elsewhere) are not at all made for one body type over another and work perfectly, so long as I do not try to use the wrong gender for the shape's marker.

As Drake has noted above - some bodies use their own UV wrappings and thus require a specific tweak to work. A good example on the furry side is the BoMR used by Regalia. If you examine skins made for such, you'll notice that the positioning/placement of varied skin level features is quite a bit offset from normal skins.

So there is a difference. That difference being if a body is using actual BoM or their own spin on it, weighted for their custom UV mapping.

Rowan Amore · February 14, 2022

13 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Sadly, you are wrong.

Its not the skin that is the issue, its the mesh body. The Legacy mesh body has its own UV as does the Aesthetic. Maitreya, Slink, Belleeza all use the SLuv. There is NO SLuv for mesh adult bits. If the mesh body is made to line up with the SLuv then any classic skin will work with it.

The new Slink Cinnamon body has it's own unique mapping, too. Probably part of the reason no one is wearing it or creating skins for it.

Qie Niangao · February 14, 2022

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

The new Slink Cinnamon body has it's own unique mapping, too. Probably part of the reason no one is wearing it or creating skins for it.

Not sure it's relevant to the Cinnamon mappings but LeLutka's "EvoX" mapping of their head mesh is dramatically different from the standard SL avatar UV map and yet it seems to get a lot of creator buy-in somehow. It's actually kind of annoying because some are now creating product only for EvoX, but LeLutka doesn't have EvoX versions of their own skins for earlier models for which they did provide an EvoX switch. So I find myself idly in the market for a third-party EvoX skin that looks as identical as possible to a specific earlier non-EvoX LeLutka skin, the look for which I bought the head in the first place. (Try explaining that to a new user!)

Anyway, the Evo vs EvoX thing may be instructive to this discussion. They're both BoM, but with very different wrappings—so different that "misalignment" doesn't begin to describe what goes wrong using a texture intended for one wrapping with a head set to use another.

Now I realize that I don't understand how those switchable, alternate wrappings are created on the same head mesh. A clunky way to do it would be to use different mesh faces, each with its own UV map. Maybe there's a way to define alternate UV maps for the very same mesh face, but that's not fitting with my preconceived notions of "materials".

[ETA: Meant to mention, if you want to see something ugly, try wearing a skin mapped to EvoX and logging in when mesh loading is slow. The EvoX skin will first bake to the classic SL avatar—scary!—while the LeLutka mesh loads and bakes. Not sure I've ever witnessed anybody else's avatar in exactly that hideous, mid-rezzing state.]

Edited February 14, 2022 by Qie Niangao

Rowan Amore · February 14, 2022

13 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

ETA: Meant to mention, if you want to see something ugly, try wearing a skin mapped to EvoX and logging in when mesh loading is slow. The EvoX skin will first bake to the classic SL avatar—scary!—while the LeLutka mesh loads and bakes. Not sure I've ever witnessed anybody else's avatar in exactly that hideous, mid-rezzing state.]

Nearly every person wearing the EvoX head at an extremely busy place looks a hot mess for a few moments. I have to say that for me, it's far less disturbing than the brains and hearts floating around.

JeromFranzic · February 14, 2022

25 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

[ETA: Meant to mention, if you want to see something ugly, try wearing a skin mapped to EvoX and logging in when mesh loading is slow. The EvoX skin will first bake to the classic SL avatar—scary!—while the LeLutka mesh loads and bakes. Not sure I've ever witnessed anybody else's avatar in exactly that hideous, mid-rezzing state.]

I suppose that's why the Lelutka devs felt it was a good idea to maintain some backward compatibility with older skins, LOL

missyrideout · February 14, 2022

57 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Not sure it's relevant to the Cinnamon mappings but LeLutka's "EvoX" mapping of their head mesh is dramatically different from the standard SL avatar UV map and yet it seems to get a lot of creator buy-in somehow.

Having something like 50% of the head market when they brought out Evo X didn't hurt. At this point, after updating all Evo heads to Evo X and releasing another free head during the holidays it's probably closer to 75%. (That was roughly the result of Seraphim's Dec 2021 survey but they have retooled their site and that particular link is dead and not archived.) Anyway, safe to say Slink doesn't have that kind of juice at the moment.

Wulfie Reanimator · February 15, 2022

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Now I realize that I don't understand how those switchable, alternate wrappings are created on the same head mesh. A clunky way to do it would be to use different mesh faces, each with its own UV map. Maybe there's a way to define alternate UV maps for the very same mesh face, but that's not fitting with my preconceived notions of "materials".

EvoX has a toggle for classic skins too. The way it's done is that you're literally wearing two heads. One is UV mapped to their custom layout, and the other is mapped to match the LL head.

On the left you can see the old Evo layout, which matches the LL head UV. You can also see why the EvoX layout looks horrible if the texture doesn't match the UV. The LL-mouth texture area is in the middle of the EvoX face...

Here's the LL head UV:

And of course, the problem with any user-created mesh object is that it can never (ever) match the LL UV exactly, due to the added detail in the geometry. Even when you copy the UV map from one to the other, there will be distortion if there's any difference in the form of the two objects (even if it's not easily perceived with most skins).

Mesh bodies, especially female ones, tend to have a lot of variety from each other (and especially from the LL body), so detailed areas like nipples, navels, toes, fingers, and genitals are easily misplaced no matter how anatomically correct you try to be while texturing.

5 hours ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

13 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

To rephrase (and reaffirm) what Drake said; BOM has nothing to do with how textures align with mesh.

That is the responsibility of the individual piece of mesh itself, and the responsibility of the texture creator to match how the mesh wants the texture to fit onto itself.

"BOM skins" or layers don't guarantee that textures will work with whatever you're wearing, regardless of whether it comes "BOM enabled" or not.

BOM can be used for literally any kind of textures or avatars. A 6-legged dragon with wings can be fully BOM-compatible, for example. It seems like this isn't really understood.

It does if the body has its own uv map outside of the sl classic uv map. I tried a classic skin with a mesh body and the nipples were in the wrong place as well as body markings; highlights, shadows and so on.

The skin creators were only creating for the classic avatar.

When I wear the V and enable bom for it, it matches perfectly with the bom skin I am wearing for the specific body I am wearing.

I cannot wear a bom skin made for maitreya on the legacy body for example. It will not be aligned properly, as each skin created is made for a particular body's uv map.

No idea why you don't know this?

The V is made for specific bodies, each in its own listing. I only use the V for legacy as it's rigged to the legacy. when I wear a body skin painted for legacy, I use that with the V.

Is that not literally what I said? What part of my previous post do you disagree with specifically?

Wulfie: "It is the responsibility of the skin creator to match how the mesh wants the texture to fit onto itself."

Kytteh: "No, if I wear a skin created for a classic body, it doesn't work on my mesh. When I wear mesh, I use skins created specifically for them and it works."

What am I missing?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator

ChocolateEclair · February 15, 2022

Its a little nuanced, but theres a small error that you're not perceiving. Its basically a chicken and egg scenario. The bodies weren't made to follow SL UV 100%, usually requiring the skin creators to kinda tweak placements of certain parts to align properly due to stretching of the existing UV. So when you wear a skin made for one body, it won't line up for another and be off in little spots. Basically you're thinking a lil backwards, but not incorrectly. Since for a long time, before BOM that -was- how things were handled. Match to the body, rather than make the body match standard. Now with BOM, its more in the interest of the body creators to tweak their UVs to fit standard, rather than force everyone else to conform to theirs.