Should Any Second Life User Be Allowed To Continue To See Another User's Camera Beacon Location - Privacy Issue?

[Paulsian]

I did not learn about beacons, specifically camera beacons until around my year 2 in Second Life and I learned that other users can see what I am looking at in world when I cam. Bascially anyone can see what everyone else is looking at while caming. 

I'm having a hard time understanding the logic of having this "feature?". I can see this being used to profile second life users. 

One of the first skills I learned in Second Life was how to cam. Funny story, the moment I learned that others could see my cams location was when I was on a region recommended by the destination guide. I saw a couple of avatars riding a dragon and was like oh I have to get a closer look (im a meshaholic and used to appreciate mesh up close) basically the dude on the dragon instant messaged me and told me to stop looking at his girl friend, honestly I would have been more interested in him, but that time was only interested in his ladies jewelry and how pretty it was. I was like how dare you sir looking at me looking at you?

Several times I've had my camera hijacked by other users and my cam'd camera was moved. 

I can understand some users point of view "we have to watch the beacons to make sure no one is caming us" and in those cases, should users have an option to not allow camera/cam avatar within 1 meter and never cam from below for the users who like to look up dresses. 

I have no idea how much more advanced this is within 3rd party viewers. Is it to the point where users can spectate other users without looking at the camera beacon? Some users buy mesh tv's and computers for their virtual spaces and some have the second life web page where users type in their log in and password into a 3rd party mesh object and I'm concerned that users may be able to track and view other users camera from remote locations. 

Also wondering if all the cam beacons being displayed are causing lag unknowingly or purposely?

After I realized other users can see my camera location I never cam. Problem solved right? Wrong, new users are being spied on unknowingly and I think that is a huge privacy concern. 

I'm sorry if this is not better written, it's 4am and I have not slept yet because when I close my eyes I see this and hoping by at least talking about it will help ease it. 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Paulsian
goof

[Blaise Glendevon]

It's really not that big of a deal. If you're on a private parcel you own, turn off the ability of people not in the land group to view avatars on the parcel. If you're in public, in a club or a RP sim or a shopping event, you've got no expectation of privacy.

[Paulsian]

But even on a private region where no one else can see in, can the people on the region still see other users camera beacons? I think the answer is yes. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Paulsian
goof

[Mollymews]

them: what you looking at me for ?

me: imma pervert

them: oh

me: that as well

them: what ?

me: this can only get better !

them: I am leave now

me: bye. I pervert you again next time as well ok

them: *woosh*

me: kehehehe

[Paulsian]

Also, I have a problem with existing users sitting around waiting to be cam'd are mislabeling and harassing new users whom are taught to cam early on. Not every new user is a pervert, I would say most new users are more interested in avatar fashion and accessories. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Paulsian
goof

[Mollymews]

add:

tbh I don't have crosshairs turned on. I don't even have overhead names turned on

if i ever do want to know the name of a person in my view (which is not often) I will put my cursor over them, and sometimes that can lead to me getting into conversations like above

[Paulsian]

7 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

I don't have crosshairs turned on

Wonders if crosshairs and beacons are the same thing and if so which viewer uses the term crosshairs? Also wonders if so, are they more easily accessible than the official viewers location for them to be used and do they have more features built in; regarding camera tracking? 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Paulsian
goof

[Paulsian]

Meta is working on eye tracking through their vr headsets to know what users specifically look at, I guess to get paid via ad glances, and wonders if this is why we have camera beacons in world. Is it being used to harvest and sell user data through 3rd parties? 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Paulsian

[Mollymews]

7 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

Wonders if crosshairs and beacons are the same thing and if so which viewer uses the term crosshairs? Also wonders if so, are they more easily accessible than the official viewers location for them and do they have more features built in; regarding camera tracking? 

in the Linden viewer is menu: Develop \ Avatar \ Show Look At (puts a 'crosshair' on screen, and a text for the type of lookat; Idle, Freelook, Focus and Select)

in TPVs like Firestorm the name of avatar to whom the lookat crosshair  belongs can also be displayed on screen

in Firestorm is possible to turn off look at, so your look at info is suppressed and is not able to be seen by other users

personally I don't see the point in look at (other than as a viewer dev/debugging tool) and I would not care if Linden nerfed lookat completely from the viewer

[Mollymews]

7 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

Is it being used to harvest and sell user data through 3rd parties? 

no. Is a dev/debug tool

[Hunny Bunny]

1 hour ago, Paulsian said:

it's 4am and I have not slept yet because when I close my eyes I see this and hoping by at least talking about it will help ease it. 

I would recommend sleeping instead of worring about something so trivial.

[Blaise Glendevon]

1 hour ago, Paulsian said:

But even on a private region where no one else can see in, can the people on the region still see other users camera beacons? I think the answer is yes. 

Who cares?

[Syo Emerald]

This has the same energy as people worrying someone "copies" their "unique" avatar style by checking what items they are wearing.

[LilNosferatu]

I wish I had the same kind of passion and energy this man has about his privacy. 😩 I'd be so much more productive.

[Marigold Devin]

That's rather like asking if people in real life should be allowed to look through the windows of houses where the curtains are open! Have eyes, will see.

In a virtual world it should matter less that someone is showing an interest in your avatar or your whereabouts. None of it is real. 

There are ways around avoiding letting people know where you are looking anyway with the clever use of alt-view.  It's very easy to focus your view on something beyond the avatar you want to look at and then pull back and take a jolly good look at them while your crosshairs are right over there! 

Personally I've found it hilarious, on the rare occasion when anyone has actually been bothered enough to say "Why are you looking at my avatar?" There are so many answers to this question. 

"I've looked at everyone else, it was just your turn."

"You're soooo pretty."

"Why isn't EVERYONE looking at your avatar? It's so eye-catching."

"             " (AFK)

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

1 hour ago, Paulsian said:

Should Any Second Life User Be Allowed To Continue To See Another User's Camera Beacon Location - Privacy Issue?

Hey mister pen tester. You can turn it off so that no one can see it anymore.

Next question?

Edited January 6, 2022 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Maitimo]

1 hour ago, Paulsian said:

I did not learn about beacons, specifically camera beacons until around my year 2 in Second Life and I learned that other users can see what I am looking at in world when I cam. Bascially anyone can see what everyone else is looking at while caming. 

In Firestorm you can hide your "Look At" targets so no-one (even on other viewers) can see what you're looking at. You can also turn on or off the targets of other people. I keep them off because the screen gets cluttered.

And if people don't want others looking at their avatars, Second Life is not the right platform for them. 

[Ren Toxx]

There are entirely different case uses for tracking other’s LookAt. Years ago I helped my photographer partner at events, as his backup, shooting along in case his PC mangled a critical moment’s capture; but since he had a far better photographic eye, I’d rely on his framing—and for that, we used a HUD that sync’d my cam to his.

That’s just one example. At a newcomer’s help area I hang out, it’s often useful to view newbies’ LookAts to see if they’re truly looking at something you’re pointing them to—or if they suddenly go AFK while you help them, as often happens. Either way, you wouldn’t believe the number of them who practically assume you have to know what they’re looking at.

Regarding what we’re actually talking about here, the entire ‘perving’ thing is highly debatable. Even setting aside the examples above, there just happens to be a significant (if not vocal) number of users who just aren’t drama queens about it. Also, let’s be cynical honest for a moment: a fair number of those drama queens actually love to complain; you take away their LookAt tracking, you take away one of their venues for complaining. Me, I couldn’t care less if I’m looked at, but if some people enjoy making a fuss about it, hey, maybe they should be indulged, too 😜

 

Point being, it’d be excessive to eliminate LookAt sharing altogether, denying all those fair uses. At most, I’d go along making it easier for new users to be aware of it and how to disable it if they want; even set it to disabled by default.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Ren Toxx

[Innula Zenovka]

It's not that long ago some third-party viewers showed avatar names above the camera cross-hairs, so you could see who was looking at what and at whom, until LL (quite rightly, to my mind) banned that functionality.

That was a real drama-magnet.

[Ardy Lay]

If one eliminates the agent-to-agent data that tells each viewer where the others in the area are looking, then everybody is looking directly ahead at all times.  I realize that most of you use "animation overrides" that mask the life-movements built in to the Second Life Viewer so the look-at data likely only applies to your eyes, but often that is enough to add an appearance of life-like attentiveness to your avatar.

Where I hang out, if somebody comes in and complains about being looked at, they suddenly find that everyone there is looking at them.  If they continue complaining, they tend to end up in the river, or where their "Home" location is set to.  

[Maitimo]

9 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

If one eliminates the agent-to-agent data that tells each viewer where the others in the area are looking, then everybody is looking directly ahead at all times.  I realize that most of you use "animation overrides" that mask the life-movements built in to the Second Life Viewer so the look-at data likely only applies to your eyes, but often that is enough to add an appearance of life-like attentiveness to your avatar.

LookAt isn't where your avatar's face or eyes are looking. It's where your viewer's camera is looking. These are sometimes the same, but often not.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Ren Toxx said:

Years ago I helped my photographer partner at events, as his backup, shooting along in case his PC mangled a critical moment’s capture; but since he had a far better photographic eye, I’d rely on his framing—and for that, we used a HUD that sync’d my cam to his.

Even more years ago, I demo'd a HUD I made that did exactly that, at a weekly Show-and-Tell event, letting the entire audience "look through my cam" which seemed to freak out some and thrill others with the possibilities. My initial idea was for the device to be used by tour guides, so others could see exactly what the guide was describing, cam in and around on their own, and then hit the Escape key to return to the "tour POV." I have no idea if it was ever really used for that, although I've heard more Adult uses were discovered (of course).

Anyway, that's technically different from the "Look At" info viewers can grab on their own and display as crosshairs. Rather, the scripted cam-tracking info is something that must be exposed explicitly, and for which there are specific permissions that are only available to attachments, objects sat-upon, and Experiences. For scripters, it can be a very useful user interface feature to be able to track where the cam is looking because it's the closest thing we have to pointing at stuff without actually touching or selecting it. But again, this is not the viewer-to-viewer "Look At" data.

[Maryanne Solo]

Given time enough, you may just master the secret "power-up" (SL hidden level/ability), of "Ventrilo-Xhairs".
Where you hijack someone else's cross hairs to per... umm.. l👀k wherever you want to and all the blame and 
visual evidence falls on someone elses avi. 😆

[Rowan Amore]

3 hours ago, Paulsian said:

Several times I've had my camera hijacked by other users and my cam'd camera was moved. 

Huh?

 

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

It's not that long ago some third-party viewers showed avatar names above the camera cross-hairs, so you could see who was looking at what and at whom, until LL (quite rightly, to my mind) banned that functionality.

That was a real drama-magnet.

They still do show the name of who's camming.

[StarlanderGoods]

I use it  a lot, to point at things