New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Logan Skytower said:

Just because you can't discern quality from an ad and misbuy does not mean that seller is using predatory behavior. Also, whataboutism. 

The demo had both the outfit and the accessory but when I went to buy it, the accessory was not included. Nothing stated in the ad, that it was not.

You are promoting a double standard for marketing so it's not whataboutism. 

[Niri Nebula]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

The demo had both the outfit and the accessory but when I went to buy it, the accessory was not included. Nothing stated in the ad, that it was not.

You are promoting a double standard for marketing so it's not whataboutism.

It's whataboutism because you are diverting from the issue of gachas and instead trying to make it about all problematic sales tactics.

Which, ya know, is an issue. Sure. Just not the issue here. I'm not promoting a double standard, I'm stating a thing is bad. That does not mean the other thing is NOT bad, it just has *****all to do with it.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Logan Skytower said:

It's whataboutism because you are diverting from the issue of gachas and instead trying to make it about all problematic sales tactics.

Which, ya know, is an issue. Sure. Just not the issue here. I'm not promoting a double standard, I'm stating a thing is bad. That does not mean the other thing is NOT bad, it just has *****all to do with it.

Well yes sweetie, you and many others made it about gacha's being a predatory sales tactic, so pointing out there are plenty of other content and creators in regular marketing venues doing the same, is on point.

[Niri Nebula]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Well yes sweetie, you and many others made it about gacha's being a predatory sales tactic, so pointing out there are plenty of other content and creators in regular marketing venues doing the same, is on point.

Except, ya know, it isn't? Those tactics aren't being banned, they're not under fire, not by anyone but you. Your reasoning seems to be "If everything is bad, it loses its meaning and thus everything is good again, including gachas"

And while impressive hoop-jumping, good god is it nonsense.

[Ted McGregor]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well yes sweetie, you and many others made it about gacha's being a predatory sales tactic

Nope. GachaMACHINES are the predatory tactic, as stated many times before. It' s not the product played for. It' s the gaming element of the sale. The items in itself can be sold seperately with any permission the creator prefers at any given price. Nothing wrong with that.

Edited August 12, 2021 by TDD123

[Kyrah Abattoir]

23 minutes ago, Elizabeth Burleigh said:

I know many designers whose work in gachas is just as good as anything they make; which, to me, suggests they have either the time and/or skill level to make quality things rather quickly and consistently. I truly hope those creators continue to make stuff, because I will continue to buy from them either in world or via the Marketplace.

My admiration gets regularly shattered anytime I eventually learn that a prolific creator I used to admire is just buying models made by others, probably paying them well below minimum wage.

[Finite]

13 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

My admiration gets regularly shattered anytime I eventually learn that a prolific creator I used to admire is just buying models made by others, probably paying them well below minimum wage.

It's pretty common. Especially with clothing since you cannot get access to popular rigs unless you are an established vendor. Nearly every clothing vendor started off with premade.

As for 3rd party there is still a decent amount of work in getting them into secondlife. It's not a simple save as DAE process.

[Kristin Linden]

 

Alrriiigghhtty, we've just cleared out a few pages of off-topic and argumentative posts. Disciplinary action will be forthcoming.

 

If you have an issue with another Resident your options are: 

1. Take it elsewhere

2. Drop it. 

 

As mentioned several times before in the course of this thread, we ask that you all stay on topic and remain civil when posting. Any posts deemed to not be relevant to the topic at hand will continue to be removed, especially if the posts are nothing more than arguing and bickering between users, and if necessary further disciplinary actions will be taken.

[Niri Nebula]

Well then.

Gachas bad.
Whataboutism bad.

Conveyor belts not a solution and, also bad.

Err... gosh, really wish I had my previous posts to see what points I was making.

[Ted McGregor]

2 minutes ago, Logan Skytower said:

Err... gosh, really wish I had my previous posts to see what points I was making.

The thread was basically reset to a certain point. I agree with it ( which is purely my opinion only, nothing else ).

[Sammy Huntsman]

4 minutes ago, Logan Skytower said:

Well then.

Gachas bad.
Whataboutism bad.

Conveyor belts not a solution and, also bad.

Err... gosh, really wish I had my previous posts to see what points I was making.

I mean it was mainly about whatabooutisms pertaining to the economics of SL. Specifically gachas. I hope that sums it up. 

[Fionalein]

2 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

How do I go about calculating the likely range of pulls it's going to take to collect a full set?   

If I'm incredibly lucky, and get item different one each pull, it's going to take me 22 pulls.  But to achieve that I have to pull a different item each time, which is very unlikely to happen.     There's a probability curve there somewhere, but I don't know how to calculate that.   

Can anyone assist me?   What's the sort of median spend if I try to collect a full set?  

 

Bayesian fun.. or do as the engineers do: Monte Carlo it! (simulate 10^6 ++ collectors and assume by law of great numbers your estimate is pretty accurate)

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

How do I go about calculating the likely range of pulls it's going to take to collect a full set?   

If I'm incredibly lucky, and get item different one each pull, it's going to take me 22 pulls.  But to achieve that I have to pull a different item each time, which is very unlikely to happen.     There's a probability curve there somewhere, but I don't know how to calculate that.   

Can anyone assist me?   What's the sort of median spend if I try to collect a full set?  

 

is an interesting topic this for sure, as we could get all 22 in 22 pulls, we could also never get all 22 ever as the algorithm is infinite

for the algorithm to not be infinite then it has to stop

a point at which we could stop is after say 300 pulls with the same player. At which point we give them all the ones that they haven't got already. By stopping, we (as the owner) think that they have given us enough. 300 x 20 = L$6,000. So while this stop is a deviation of the algorithm it can be seen as a good thing for the customer

calculating the probability of getting a result in X pulls is interesting, but it doesn't change the reality that to get at least one of each item the average number of pulls is 100, as the most rare item is 1:100 and the others are less than this 1/100, 2/100, 3/100, etc

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Mollymews
greater

[ildiko Evergarden]

I'm just curious.. is there gonna be any future plans of cleaning up the marketplace?

 

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

34 minutes ago, Finite said:

As for 3rd party there is still a decent amount of work in getting them into secondlife. It's not a simple save as DAE process.

It also means you'll get no support if you have a problem since the person who sold you the product can't actually model

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Minx Kurosawa said:

I'm just curious.. is there gonna be any future plans of cleaning up the marketplace?

 

 

Basically once the reseller is out, then the marketplace slowly cleans out. 

[ildiko Evergarden]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

Basically once the reseller is out, then the marketplace slowly cleans out. 

 I hope so.. and I just hope they clean it all up completely.. it's not just gachas that are the problem.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

38 minutes ago, Kristin Linden said:

 we ask that you all stay on topic and remain civil when posting. Any posts deemed to not be relevant to the topic at hand will continue to be removed, especially if the posts are nothing more than arguing and bickering between users, and if necessary further disciplinary actions will be taken.

Thank you @Kirsten Linden - The posts of mine you found it necessary to clear out were pure ridicule of another poster and I accept that it was needed to clean those up to tidy the thread. Can we have the REST of the ad-hom attacks and conspiracy theories by one particular "respected forum member" cleaned up too?

[Fionalein]

8 minutes ago, Minx Kurosawa said:

 I hope so.. and I just hope they clean it all up completely.. it's not just gachas that are the problem.

But how would you tell? There is some sculptie and prim stuff on MP that still is way better than some of the shoddy LOD mesh stuff creators give you today. "Cleaning it up completely" is an utopian vision anyways - even with clear pruning rules.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Fionalein

[Rathgrith027]

48 minutes ago, Kristin Linden said:

 

Alrriiigghhtty, we've just cleared out a few pages of off-topic and argumentative posts. Disciplinary action will be forthcoming.

 

If you have an issue with another Resident your options are: 

1. Take it elsewhere

2. Drop it. 

 

As mentioned several times before in the course of this thread, we ask that you all stay on topic and remain civil when posting. Any posts deemed to not be relevant to the topic at hand will continue to be removed, especially if the posts are nothing more than arguing and bickering between users, and if necessary further disciplinary actions will be taken.

Honestly at this point there's not much else to discuss unless another FAQ comes out. Pretty certain this thread is just going to keep getting derailed. We've pretty much covered every corner of the discussion. 

Also, while I'll apologize for contributing to the fires, I stand by what I said. What that was, Is up to those who come here now to figure out. 🤐

Edited August 12, 2021 by Rathgrith027

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Rathgrith027 said:

Honestly at this point there's not much else to discuss unless another FAQ comes out. Pretty certain this thread is just going to keep getting derailed. We've pretty much covered every corner of the discussion.

Agreed. This thread really just needs to be temporarily "paused" and turned into a sticky until the next update to the FAQ.

@Patch Linden what do you think?

Edited August 12, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Mollymews]

35 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Bayesian fun.. or do as the engineers do: Monte Carlo it! (simulate 10^6 ++ collectors and assume by law of great numbers your estimate is pretty accurate)

yes can be lots of fun to play with this

is a useful thing to do when we don't know what the probabilities are of each item appearing (event occurring). In which case what we typically do is use an adaptive model on which we do a calculation at each step.  The most simple adaptive model is to count each item as it appears

 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 hour ago, Kristin Linden said:

 

 

I just wanted to quote that andy there vaccuming makes me crack up so hard at times.   crazy youtuber he is.

[Innula Zenovka]

2 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Bayesian fun.. or do as the engineers do: Monte Carlo it! (simulate 10^6 ++ collectors and assume by law of great numbers your estimate is pretty accurate)

Yes, that's it.   A Bayesian estimate.    While I understand the logic, actually using the formula to calculate the distribution of pulls necessary to complete a full set  of n items is beyond me, I'm afraid.

Unless I misunderstand things, though, that calculation is, or should be, central to the business logic of merchants who rely heavily on gachas, so presumably it's something people are used to doing, isn't it?

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Not much different from a pile of regular content that is deceptively marketed and not worth the price paid for it but we not seeing anyone looking to get those cleaned up and banned. I just got burnt for 399 on an accessory that was like that. Only thing I can do with it is trash it and the outfit it was for. 800L$ down the drain. That is just an example from the past week.  And yeah, I just was pulling on one gacha at a place that gave me 5 duplicates in a row but being it was only 10L per pull, it was only a 50L loss and I could even maybe sell a few if I was so inclined, unlike the 399L item that is No Transfer.

From that perspective, Gacha's are no worse then regular content and it is buyer beware.

 

You trashed an outfit just because an accessory you bought separately didn't work out? And you didn't bother to look for something else that might have worked even better?

Must be nice to have money to burn like that. We truly do live in a throw away society.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker