New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

That's because our Treasury is trying to tax us for it.  (Laundering is also an issue they see). 

True although their motives aren't why I posted it.  They see Lindens as currency.  LL covers their butt with calling them tokens.  

[Finite]

5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It doesn't say that, though. It refers to cashing out "net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars" meaning the US$ from those sales, net of fees, regardless of where those L$s arose. They could all have been bought, converted back to US$s in LindeX sales, and it all can be cashed-out.

What is your definition of a net proceed? If I buy something then sell it back for the same price. Is that a net proceed? If i buy $5 worth of lindens and sell it for 7$, and now have a tilia balance of $7. I can only withdraw the 2 dollars and not hte initial 5 that I spent.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Finite

[Rowan Amore]

If you make 200000L.from the sale of your product and cash out, you have made $800.  Just like poker chips (tokens) you cash out at the end of the night.  You use real money to buy casino chips, you use real money to buy Lindens.  In game, Lindens have no intrinsic value other than what you deem valuable enough to spend them on.  The moment a creator cashes out that 200000L they made from gachas, that IS taxable income.  Those Lindens do have value.  

If you purchased Lindens or sold product and could NOT redeem those for actual RL money,  then it would simply be a token.

 

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If you make 200000L.from the sale of your product and cash out, you have made $800.  Just like poker chips (tokens) you cash out at the end of the night.  You use real money to buy casino chips, you use real money to buy Lindens.  In game, Lindens have no intrinsic value other than what you deem valuable enough to spend them on.  The moment a creator cashes out that 200000L they made from gachas, that IS taxable income.  Those Lindens do have value.  

If you purchased Lindens or sold product and could NOT redeem those for actual RL money,  then it would simply be a token.

Not according to my CPA (certified public accountant). I must report those earnings and am taxed on it, irregardless of whether I ever remove it from SL.

[Nicky Macabre]

Just now, Irina Forwzy said:

They will not.  Some companies will also leave SL. And some creators will make less profit and eventually leave.  Unless the gacha buyers were to buy fatpacks. Then maybe.  But they wont. Most played 2k for one or two items, the rest were extras they could reuse if they wanted or resell to someone that actually wanted it.

They will still be financially hit if they get the thrill just by shopping in sl. As many people do either way.  If someone wants to buy, they will buy.

Well yeah, of course that's the case.

But there's a difference between playing a gacha and buying a product directly. And the experience of what will likely happen with the conveyor belt idea will definitely be a source of complaint for a lot of people who do engage in it, if it catches on enough. It might even be more frustrating than gachas, depending on how the individual store sets their machines up.

Also to say most played 2k for one or two items is a little bit of an understatement. Some people definitely can limit themselves (to 2k or any other number) but a lot cannot. And sure they may make some of that back through reselling but the majority of that money is lost.

As for creators making less of a profit because of the gacha ban... Good? I mean, it sucks for people's personal situations but the entire concept of gachas is scummy to begin with and while there are some who wont agree with me I feel that maybe we shouldn't throw out morals for monetary gain lol. If your entire store is just gachas you're making a deliberate choice to make money that way because you know people will throw away thousands of linden, potentially thousands of "real" money and you know there are people who are addicted to it. You're making an educated decision to use a system that gets you the most money and I find it hard to believe that you care about your customers. Creators who cannot or will not adapt to the gacha ban will indeed leave or at the very least stop creating and that's also their choice. They're allowed to make that decision.

Also on that note; Getting rid of gachas isn't about the money, but making gachas is. Keeping gachas around would actually have been financially beneficial for LL because of how much money they make off of linden sales and marketplace sales. But they know that it's wrong. If a creator can't also make that distinction then I don't really care if they leave.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Not according to my CPA (certified public accountant). I must report those earnings and am taxed on it, irregardless of whether I ever remove it from SL.

Thanks Luna.  I've never cashed out or made money so was unaware of that.  So, the treasury obviously sees they have value.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 minutes ago, Finite said:

What is your definition of a net proceed? If I buy something then sell it back for the same price. Is that a net proceed? If i buy $5 worth of lindens and sell it for 7$, and now have a tilia balance of $7. I can only withdraw the 2 dollars and not hte initial 5 that I spent.

Net proceeds in this case is minus fees. When you buy Lindens you're converting real-life money into property, just like if you bought $5 worth of macaroni. If you acquire more Lindens in world/if the value of Lindens increases substantially and your balance is now worth $7, you can withdraw that whole $7 minus the various fees Linden Lab charges. They have nothing to do with your initial $5 buy.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Not according to my CPA (certified public accountant). I must report those earnings and am taxed on it, irregardless of whether I ever remove it from SL.

Thanks Luna.  I've never cashed out so was unaware of that.  So, the treasury obviously sees they have value.

Yes, the IRS is getting more strict as we've increasingly moved online in so many respects.

In the past one didn't have to report hobby income under a certain amount, but now even that has to be reported    

[Nicky Macabre]

36 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

They will still be financially hit if they get the thrill just by shopping in sl. As many people do either way.  If someone wants to buy, they will buy.

 

13 minutes ago, Death Incognito said:

Well yeah, of course that's the case.

But there's a difference between playing a gacha and buying a product directly.

I started saying something here and forgot to continue on it. 

Buying stuff on SL, buying stuff in general, gives people a thrill/dopamine release/etc. I don't have as much of a problem with that, I don't necessarily think that that is the issue here. I think the issue is taking advantage of that. Gachas and gambling take advantage of that. An addiction is still an addiction, but there's a difference between a shopping addiction and a gambling addiction. I guess you could argue that sales and events contribute to shopping addictions similarly to how gachas contribute to gambling addictions but I think it's a lot less toxic.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Death Incognito

[Finite]

12 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Net proceeds in this case is minus fees. When you buy Lindens you're converting real-life money into property, just like if you bought $5 worth of macaroni. If you acquire more Lindens in world/if the value of Lindens increases substantially and your balance is now worth $7, you can withdraw that whole $7 minus the various fees Linden Lab charges. They have nothing to do with your initial $5 buy.

Explain how you get a net proceed with a minus anything let alone fees. This should be interesting math.

[Irina Forwzy]

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, the IRS is getting more strict as we've increasingly moved online in so many respects.

In the past one didn't have to report hobby income under a certain amount, but now even that has to be reported    

Welcome to 2021.  The IRS has to tax some folks because corporations are lobbying to get loopholes everywhere for them.  Thus, us the little guys get screwed. (Mind you, I don't create in SL, I'm great at creating Visio diagrams and Process improvements... can't for the life of me create mesh models).

[Irina Forwzy]

9 minutes ago, Death Incognito said:

 

I started saying something here and forgot to continue on it. 

Buying stuff on SL, buying stuff in general, gives people a thrill/dopamine release/etc. I don't have as much of a problem with that, I don't necessarily think that that is the issue here. I think the issue is taking advantage of that. Gachas and gambling take advantage of that. An addiction is still an addiction, but there's a difference between a shopping addiction and a gambling addiction. I guess you could argue that sales and events contribute to shopping addictions similarly to how gachas contribute to gambling addictions but I think it's a lot less toxic.

Some people do have issues with that though. And those are increasingly pushing for legislation toward that effect.  I am actually against that point. Because as much as I love taxation on corporations and I do believe on a more democratic socialistic model. I do not think we need to completely get rid of our economic model such as capitalism.  Just regulate it.  Yet,  I too often start to see that those that want to control one part of the economic model,  actually want to slowly remove capitalism.

That being said,  I'm fine with gachas going away. As long as creators are able to make their profit in another way.  Unfortunately though, that wont be the case for many of those. They will have to then go and hit the RL market for jobs. They will also not buy from other SL merchants.  Because a large segment of the buying community are those that create here.  My fear, is that this is actually part of a series of moves done by LL to clean their act.

And eventually if they go to the next one, which is the adult world.  Which on a personal level I disagree with.  It will financially hit SL to a point where it may teeter over to a collapse.

[Ansiri]

Disallowing gachas is just insane. What is wrong with this world? This is madness.
They're not bad.
I have occasionally enjoyed buying gachas, because they're fun, because it's a surprise what you will get. Mostly i don't like the rare ones, i'm happy with what i get and i know when to stop. The cost is usually very very low and if i use a bit more on some gacha, i'm happy to give the money to creator, who has used her time to create the stuff.

What is so bad about them?
Don't you have those gumball machines and toy vending machines, do those machines make monsters out of kids or adults who use them?

This just makes SL and using money here a bit more less interesting for me.
I don't like how shopping oriented SL is, every fair or event is almost all about shopping stuff, but gachas have been a fun exception.

And i don't gamble. I don't get why you call gachas a gamble. There are similar games (games of chance) in amusement parks too, are those to be closed also?

[Qie Niangao]

8 minutes ago, Finite said:

Explain how you get a net proceed with a minus anything let alone fees. This should be interesting math.

It is exactly net of fees charged to do the L$-to-US$ currency exchange.

This all did make me curious about that "[y]ou may only process credit due from net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars" clause, so I traced it back to the Tilia Terms of Service, specifically "3.3.2. Crediting the Stored Value Balance" where it's pretty clear they're worried about money laundering:

Quote

Each Stored Value Balance may only be credited through your exchange of Virtual Tokens and may not be funded directly by any payment method.

So I can't just deposit US$ directly into my Tilia account, eligible for direct cash-out; only US$s converted from L$ (virtual tokens) can accumulate in the TIlia "Stored Value Balance" from which it's possible to process credit (cash out).

[Jaylinbridges]

15 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

So I can't just deposit US$ directly into my Tilia account, eligible for direct cash-out; only US$s converted from L$ (virtual tokens) can accumulate in the TIlia "Stored Value Balance" from which it's possible to process credit (cash out).

Isn't that a meaningless rule?  HOW do you deposit US$ directly into your Tilia account?  You can Buy Lindens with your USD .  Tilia  is not a checking account.  You can not deposit USD into the Tilia Stored Value Balance.  You must Sell Lindens thru Lindex to convert to the Tilia USD balance.  It has always been this way afaik.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[snowvoice]

3 hours ago, Patch Linden said:

Sorry, but I can't read what is quoted in the tweet.  If there has been any other discussion in the thread about it, I also will not be reading it.  

In direct response to this post referenced above:  This game was presented to me directly with an English write up for approval on it's operation design, and I approved it. It is the mechanic of a conveyor belt system, the same I have described in the FAQ.

 

The specifications of this conveyor belt bender are explained in the maker's Tweet here and in the reply section.
Did you approve the specs, including the one that makes the buyer impatient and rushes the decision, where if the buyer doesn't buy the next displayed item within 10 seconds, the priority will be transferred to someone else?

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by snowvoice

[Komarimono]

13 minutes ago, Ansiri said:

Disallowing gachas is just insane. What is wrong with this world? This is madness.
They're not bad.
I have occasionally enjoyed buying gachas, because they're fun, because it's a surprise what you will get. Mostly i don't like the rare ones, i'm happy with what i get and i know when to stop. The cost is usually very very low and if i use a bit more on some gacha, i'm happy to give the money to creator, who has used her time to create the stuff.

What is so bad about them?
Don't you have those gumball machines and toy vending machines, do those machines make monsters out of kids or adults who use them?

This just makes SL and using money here a bit more less interesting for me.
I don't like how shopping oriented SL is, every fair or event is almost all about shopping stuff, but gachas have been a fun exception.

And i don't gamble. I don't get why you call gachas a gamble. There are similar games (games of chance) in amusement parks too, are those to be closed also?

Because it's a predatory system.  Many people who used to make great things and sell them normally, chose instead to make their new releases etc and special items, strictly Gacha.  Wanna get it?  Gotta play.  There's nothing fun about Gacha when you're trying to just get one item, the only surprise I've had with them is "Wow, that only took 50 spins to get what I wanted."

And Gacha by definition are a gamble.

[Irina Forwzy]

Just now, snowvoice said:

The specifications of this conveyor belt bender are explained in the maker's Tweet here and in the reply section.
Did you approve the specs, including the one that makes the buyer impatient and rushes the decision, where if the buyer doesn't buy the next displayed item within 10 seconds, the priority will be transferred to someone else?

 

You imagine that machine in an arcade with 30 people camming on a machine and trying to buy at the same time?  I can smell glitches!

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Here they don't tax homegrown, only what you buy in the dispensaries.

A friend with weed is a friend indeed!!

[Yingzi Xue]

14 minutes ago, snowvoice said:

The specifications of this conveyor belt bender are explained in the maker's Tweet here and in the reply section.
Did you approve the specs, including the one that makes the buyer impatient and rushes the decision, where if the buyer doesn't buy the next displayed item within 10 seconds, the priority will be transferred to someone else?

 

The script for making this function would be super simple to write, but as you said, handling input in an efficient, low-impact way is going to be key.  No matter the delay, you're still going to have the potential for campers mass clicking on the object, unless you use a waiting list or queue for interacting with the unit.  Cycle through avatars who have clicked on the unit and give them each time to use it.  If an avatar leaves, drop them from the queue.  This would make it somewhat fair and help dump unnecessary clicks.  It'll be interesting to see how the creator handles it.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Yingzi Xue

[Jaylinbridges]

.

[Kyau Brodie]

22 minutes ago, snowvoice said:

The specifications of this conveyor belt bender are explained in the maker's Tweet here and in the reply section.
Did you approve the specs, including the one that makes the buyer impatient and rushes the decision, where if the buyer doesn't buy the next displayed item within 10 seconds, the priority will be transferred to someone else?

 

 

3 hours ago, Patch Linden said:

Sorry, but I can't read what is quoted in the tweet.  If there has been any other discussion in the thread about it, I also will not be reading it.  

In direct response to this post referenced above:  This game was presented to me directly with an English write up for approval on it's operation design, and I approved it. It is the mechanic of a conveyor belt system, the same I have described in the FAQ.

 

Please stop suggesting Patch Linden did not do his research. It's kind of rude.

He clearly says he personally approved the submitted operation and design of the vendor and he will not be reading any more discussion about it in this thread.

If you don't like it, don't play it. Simple as that. I'm not surprised the people that didn't like gacha, don't like this new vendor system either. It will never be your cup of tea and that's fine. But for those who enjoy this vendor, let them have their nice things.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Kyau Brodie

[Kathlen Onyx]

58 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, the IRS is getting more strict as we've increasingly moved online in so many respects.

In the past one didn't have to report hobby income under a certain amount, but now even that has to be reported    

So you are saying that regardless if you withdraw the money any net profit has to be reported to the IRS? Good luck with that. So all these hosts and DJ's are supposed to be reporting the lindens they earned?

Edited August 7, 2021 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Silent Mistwalker]

21 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

A friend with weed is a friend indeed!!

Gas, grass or @$$, nobody rides for free!

[AmyBlackwood]

3 hours ago, hairtuss said:

 

 

How you two are failing to realize these two things is beyond me.

1) Gambling is harmful.

Only to a minority. That's why gambling legislation in the UK is always careful to give the maximum protection to those who are vulnerable while respecting the right of others to gamble in a free country. An example of this happening is with fixed odds betting machines.

People were betting up to £100 on a single bet over and over for hours on end, but instead of outright banning the machines, the government reduced the maximum bet allowed to £2. In a different world where SL can allow gambling, LL could do the same by limiting what you can charge on a Gacha. But sadly too many governments think carpet bans of things will save the world...

Edited August 7, 2021 by AmyBlackwood