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New Gacha Policy Discussion


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1 minute ago, AriaMoonlit said:

Here we go. More gacha work around . I don't think that fixes the problem, now people will be forced to buy an item they see  clearly , only to make the next item available for purchase. That's like those coin machines in arcades where you keep adding tokens- so slowly but surely the real "big" prize is shaken out from the massive amount of tokens you'll have to put in to keep the machine chasing the shelf of tokens down.at that point people won't bother playing if they see something undesirable , that they don't want coming next. They need to stop with the gacha PON ,everything pon , that pon in the name is very sneaky because pon ties back to GACHA, since it's normally call gachapon but in the USA is just shortened to GACHA for the English speakers.

Patch already said this was approved. I'd dig it up but it's a few pages back.

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2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Excuse me. When did I ask you for any information? I didn't. You're arguing with everyone else, not me. 🙄

All I posted was a link and you went ballistic on me.  No wonder people don't want to deal with you.

Go back and read what you wrote, which is a claim *I* "asked for information* when I didn't. 

Don't ask for information if you don't want it. *plonk*

Why did you feel the need to a) deliver a homily b) provide a link to laws we've all seen a thousand times in this thread? Strange.

What business are you in again?

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3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Had you registered with Tilia and provided all the verification they needed.  Linked your PayPal to a bank account.  There are a few reasons why it may not have gone through.  

No, I was referred to their process credit tos. Which I have linked a couple times.

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Just now, Finite said:

Patch already said this was approved. I'd dig it up but it's a few pages back.

Yeah I feel a midnight board feeling from this ..but this time you pay for the item instead . Hoping this isn't at events other wise machines are going to break down from everyone seeing the rare coming up and spamming the machine. LL will need to deal with sims shutting down. 

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Just now, AriaMoonlit said:

Yeah I feel a midnight board feeling from this ..but this time you pay for the item instead . Hoping this isn't at events other wise machines are going to break down from everyone seeing the rare coming up and spamming the machine. LL will need to deal with sims shutting down. 

Yes we'll see how it turns out. I don't see how this would function at an event as more people would want to play it and I can just see sniping going on all day. I was fine with gacha the way it was. It could have been more regulated in requiring vendors to list the odds so people knew what they were getting into. Otherwise the only way to find out was the hard way which obviously left a lot of sour feelings.

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1 minute ago, Finite said:

Patch already said this was approved. I'd dig it up but it's a few pages back.

I'm all for questioning everything but I wouldn't be too hasty with a "But Patch says..." response to anything.

Patch has delivered a policy that brooked no dissent. Predictably, people howled; he indicated some minor ameliorations like a 60 day period for enforcement, and warnings in the 30 days after 8/31.

He made many qualifications in all this remarks about how LL's lawyers had to review issues; how their lawyers were still analyzing issues; etc. 

He noted that he was no longer accepting proposals and he's not LL's counsel at the end of the day. He indicated that those with proposals can submit it to Support.

So my understanding of the state of play now is that those with any alternative vending script involving random action are welcome to submit it to Support. 

There presumably technical and legal Linden staff will review it and respond. And that absent that response, you cannot really safely start distributing it for free or pay. Because they may seize it later.

We live in a world where, under the TOS, for "any reason or no reason," Linden Lab can deprecate a script. They can run a sieve through all existing known gatcha devises and a search string on certain LL functions and then deprecate all of that with a flip of a switch on the asset server. That's my understanding of the code-of-law harsh reality we live under. 

In their 18 years, they've almost never done this. But when they had to build "grey goo fences" against self-replicating devices across sim used not only in fun biology experiments but griefing, or when they went after that guy with the script that outed people's IP addresses and matched them, AFAIK they pulled those scripts from the server.

Scripts like Philip Linden's original lovely Fairy Slot Machine, which people quickly realized could steal Lindens, was banned for use as exploitative and then banned period as gambling. But it was not deprecated, you can still pull it out from inventory and no red hover text appears or anything.

My own feeling about this is that the Lindens never met a script they didn't like. That as coders, they bless all scriptness as the wonderfulness of the Metaverse. I take a different view, but I'm not them. Still, if they find this gets out of hand, they have the means to do a blanket removal, the end, and that means the accounts of those avatars with those scripts in inventory.

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22 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Why did you feel the need to a) deliver a homily b) provide a link to laws we've all seen a thousand times in this thread? Strange.

All of which is irrelevant pedantic grandstanding.

LL could ban blue hair, tomorrow, for no reason whatsoever.

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17 minutes ago, Finite said:

Yes we'll see how it turns out. I don't see how this would function at an event as more people would want to play it and I can just see sniping going on all day. I was fine with gacha the way it was. It could have been more regulated in requiring vendors to list the odds so people knew what they were getting into. Otherwise the only way to find out was the hard way which obviously left a lot of sour feelings.

Yeah I'm perfectly ok with no gacha. Simply shopping is fine and was fine before.The item will still be there even when you had to finally save up for it etc. Maybe people can make items that are only sold during a certain time span rather than limited copies -since then the amount they sell ,would just stop at the small amount of items they planned to sell. 

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8 minutes ago, Finite said:

No, I was referred to their process credit tos. Which I have linked a couple times.

From the Process credit page

Net proceeds from your sale(s) of Linden Dollars remain as a credit on your Tilia account. This credit is automatically applied to your Second Life account fees as described here. If you do not want to apply your Linden Dollar sales proceeds to your account fees, you may process this portion of your account credit as a payment to you. You may only process credit due from net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars.

You must be in compliance with Tilia and Second Life Terms of Service to receive payment through our credit payment process. This includes, without limitation, the requirement that you provide and maintain complete and accurate information, including verifiable billing information.

 

i can infer that what they might mean in the knowledge base article when referring to account credits, that could be the 1000L you get when becoming premium?  They will not refund any money you paid for Lindens.  You can only sell them on the LindeX and then cash out.  Minus fees = net proceeds.  You'd lose money if you turned around and sold them right back but you CAN do it.  Why anyone would do that?  No idea.  The whole Tilia thing and verifying your RL identity is because they are a.registered money service and must comply with regulations.

I've never registered with Tilia nor will I so my balance will stay in my account until my next Lindens purchase.  

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Yes that is what I was linking. At least this is better than advising people to buy 100k L for the purpose of proving me wrong. Hint hint, I'd probably remove that.

There's also SL's TOS.

4.4 Linden Lab has no obligation to accept returns or provide refunds of any amounts paid for products or services purchased from Linden Lab.

Except as set forth above or in any Additional Terms, purchases of Linden Content (including but not limited to Usage Subscriptions, Virtual Tender, and/or other Virtual Goods and Services) are final, non-refundable, have no monetary value (i.e. are not a cash account or equivalent) and are purchases of only a limited, non-exclusive, revocable, non-assignable, personal, and non-transferable license to use content Inworld, even if they come with a durational term (e.g. a monthly subscription).

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

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9 minutes ago, Finite said:

Yes that is what I was linking. At least this is better than advising people to buy 100k L for the purpose of proving me wrong. Hint hint, I'd probably remove that.

There's also SL's TOS.

4.4 Linden Lab has no obligation to accept returns or provide refunds of any amounts paid for products or services purchased from Linden Lab.

Except as set forth above or in any Additional Terms, purchases of Linden Content (including but not limited to Usage Subscriptions, Virtual Tender, and/or other Virtual Goods and Services) are final, non-refundable, have no monetary value (i.e. are not a cash account or equivalent) and are purchases of only a limited, non-exclusive, revocable, non-assignable, personal, and non-transferable license to use content Inworld, even if they come with a durational term (e.g. a monthly subscription).

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

Which is why it was added later as was pointed out below by Molly.  I wasn't advising anyone, obviously.  A money launderer would/could purchase that much, pass it on to someone who then cashes out and why more stringent rules were.put in place in order to cash out.  Regulation and such.  I wasn't trying to prove you wrong just to inform you and anyone else.  

 

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

as i remember the wording for L$ got changed after there was a mass banning of accounts of an inworld group into disruptive behaviour

the accounts holders brought a class action lawsuit. It went to arbitration and part of the settlement was that Linden reimbursed the L$ amounts for US$ held by the banned accounts, due to the way in which the then ToS described L$ 

 

Edited by Rowan Amore
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1 hour ago, Finite said:

Now process the credit and let us know what they tell you in 2 or 3 days.

The part of the TOS you keep citing, the part about "net proceeds of sales of Linden Dollars" definitely does not say they won't process that credit, but now I'm trying to imagine what they might need to do to comply with anti-money laundering rules. It would look very suspicious to deposit US$, convert them to L$s, convert them back to US$s and then try to process credit to withdraw them again, if this all happened in a reasonably short interval, but still, even if it's suspicious you'd think they'd be required to report it to FINCen, not block the transaction, assuming they have RL identity (which they must, to process credit at all). 

(All this said, though, the account holder definitely can use the US$ balance, converted from L$s regardless of source, to pay for US$-denominated goods and services (account fees), which renders academic their "no monetary value" claim about L$s, even if under some circumstances they may deny requests to process credit with those funds.)

Edited by Qie Niangao
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1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Had you registered with Tilia and provided all the verification they needed.  Linked your PayPal to a bank account.  There are a few reasons why it may not have gone through.  

A hold is another reason.  Let's say you have a transaction and the transaction is held by the bank until the credit card processor sends that over.  It may be that there is a 3 day lag or was for the specific payment form. Once the primary transaction cleared, you'd be able to exit your cash back to your bank account.

Edited by Irina Forwzy
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20 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

The part of the TOS you keep citing, the part about "net proceeds of sales of Linden Dollars" definitely does not say they won't process that credit, but now I'm trying to imagine what they might need to do to comply with anti-money laundering rules. It would look very suspicious to deposit US$, convert them to L$s, convert them back to US$s and then try to process credit to withdraw them again, if this all happened in a reasonably short interval, but still, even if it's suspicious you'd think they'd be required to report it to FINCen, not block the transaction, assuming they have RL identity (which they must, to process credit at all). 

(All this said, though, the account holder definitely can use the US$ balance, converted from L$s regardless of source, to pay for US$-denominated goods and services (account fees), which renders academic their "no monetary value" claim about L$s, even if under some circumstances they may deny requests to process credit with those funds.)

Yes but I also sited this as well. Where SL clearly states purchases of lindens are non-refundable.

33 minutes ago, Finite said:

4.4 Linden Lab has no obligation to accept returns or provide refunds of any amounts paid for products or services purchased from Linden Lab.

Except as set forth above or in any Additional Terms, purchases of Linden Content (including but not limited to Usage Subscriptions, Virtual Tender, and/or other Virtual Goods and Services) are final, non-refundable, have no monetary value (i.e. are not a cash account or equivalent) and are purchases of only a limited, non-exclusive, revocable, non-assignable, personal, and non-transferable license to use content Inworld, even if they come with a durational term (e.g. a monthly subscription).

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

Whatever happened in some court case that seems to have been settled out of court (which means no precedent can  be made from it which is why I wonder why people settle things out of court) it didn't seem to change their non-refundable policy. The process credit policy has been in place since 2011. This current TOS has been in effect since 2017.

Edited by Finite
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6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You aren't being refunded.  LL is not giving you your money back.  You are selling your Lindens on the LindeX.

Purchases of account credits and credits due to gift codes or other promotional account credits are nonrefundable, and may not be processed as a payment to you.


Maybe they mean something other than lindens when they use the terms "account credits" or "virtual tender".

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7 hours ago, hairtuss said:

How you two are failing to realize these two things is beyond me.

1) Gambling is harmful.
2) SL developers do not need to sell gachas in order to make a profit.

I said nothing to refute your two claims. I generally agree with them. Someone asked why we're even having this discussion. I read in that question an implication that this is a cut-and-dry issue that LL should have no trouble sorting out. I simply noted that LL profits from supplying an environment in which dopamine release motivates us to spend more. The weekly Linden stipend for premium members would be an example that few take issue with.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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2 hours ago, Irina Forwzy said:

The question I have with this is:  Is the conveyor system built by LL and will the script be the only one allowed to be used. I have more trust in it if it's built by LL. Even if there may be some crashes at first as they fix any lag issues.   One from a private seller may have some "edits".

I hardly doubt that. That would increase liability. Right now LL provides a platform where 3rd party entities happen to provide services that might or might not be lootbox gambling according to regulatory entities. If LL would distribute the tools for those services they would be actively encouraging it. This would certainly influence the way regulatory entities would approach LL. Why would they take that risk?

Edited by Fionalein
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21 minutes ago, Finite said:

Yes but I also sited this as well. Where SL clearly states purchases of lindens are non-refundable.

Whatever happened in some court case that seems to have been settled out of court (which means no precedent can  be made from it which is why I wonder why people settle things out of court) it didn't seem to change their non-refundable policy. The process credit policy has been in place since 2011. This current TOS has been in effect since 2017.

It does not say Ls are nonrefundable. It says Linden Lab is under no obligation to refund your cash balance to you and/or to refund the purchase price of any Ls you may have bought that you decide you don't want or if you quit or are banned.

All they are saying is they are not legally obligated to refund Ls purchases. They are not saying they won't give refunds at all.

It's legalese and it doesn't always mean what it looks like it says.

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2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It does not say Ls are nonrefundable.

It doesn't?

Except as set forth above or in any Additional Terms, purchases of Linden Content (including but not limited to Usage Subscriptions, Virtual Tender, and/or other Virtual Goods and Services) are final, non-refundable

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Gacha ban is great work always disliked paying tons of L$ for stuff i didnt whant and had no idea what to do with it, Paying for what you like and sure to get it is lot better! bye bye gacha and stay away!

@Linden LabBut how about breedables with breedables you also dont know what you get those things are random and basicly walking gacha vendors even worse the foods are very expencive in a way banning breedables would have bin the correct start or both gacha and the breedables.... eitherway breedables worse invention in SL ever! take close look into breedables so i suggest.

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1 hour ago, Fionalein said:

I hardly doubt that. That would increase liability. Right now LL provides a platform where 3rd party entities happen to provide services that might or might not be lootbox gambling according to regulatory entities. If LL would distribute the tools for those services they would be actively encouraging it. This would certainly influence the way regulatory entities would approach LL. Why would they take that risk?

If the impact of the loss of gacha is a 10% decrease, they may do something similar. If it's not to be the script creator, it is to review the scripts and make sure they are working accurately to comply as much as they can. 

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9 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

I printed out the post that featured that device and going to show it to the person who services the Lotto machine in our bar.  He had to take specialized training regarding gambling rules and such and see if he has opinions on the conveyor.

A little update --- the person came in to service our Lotto machine and VLTs and I showed him the print out and explained SL to him too. He has seen that type of mechanism before and is considered a gambling device since the next items up is random and maybe cause a player to keep feeding it to get the item they want. He said it's also possible the programming could make certain numbers on it could appear seldomly. The guy is from Saskatchewan Liquor and Gaming Authority (aka SLGA).

Linden staff might want to bring that to the legal team and shouldn't be approved.

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9 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Paying less* for more usefull items (usually copy instead of trans) is not funny? Explain your logic please.

*see @xAmbiguityx's list on how much the full set can end up costing you.

Paying 4000L to buy one rare outright from the creator just so it can "hold it's value" isn't logical, there's my logic. Things I bought in SL for a lot of linden years ago (like the first feral avatars made) are now worthless, some don't even function any more! Same with early Arcade gachas. Worthless. Obsolete. No one wants them. They didn't hold their value at all. So why's it so important a gacha item now "keep it's value"? Who cares. It's like being mad the TV you got six months ago is now on sale.

A fatpack is different! Fatpacks are going to cost you more based on how many items are in them - you got 40 items in there then yeah, it's gonna be expensive but you're getting every item, even the rares!

The only reason I can see for trying to "have a rare keep its value" is to take advantage of more people. You have this fancy dress or fancy version of the basic avatar because it's the rare with a drop rate below 5%, people want it so they keep pumping more and more and more into the machine and getting more and more frustrated and fixated on getting that item. So if they throw it in the fatpack, everyone can have it but if they price it on its own at some ridiculous price or only put it in the tier or conveyor vendors, they can keep getting more lindens than it's worth.

tl;dr - your virtual rares have no value. None. Tomorrow LL could break them all.

Edited by Leigh Tharnaby
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