New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Finite]

33 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

You keep saying this and I can't figure out why nobody has corrected it yet. It's perfectly possible to convert any part of one's L$ account balance to US$s.

The Lab does have some legalistic language about how (all) L$s have no monetary value as a means of avoiding liability for lost L$ balances (like when the whole company goes belly-up or changes all L$s to non-convertible) but that too applies to the entire L$ balance, nothing special about "net lindens you gain." There simply is no such distinction.

Hi Qie. I am just going by what's on their process credit page. I've been denied the ability to withdraw a portion of L's i've bought in the past when I realized I had bought more than I  needed. I was referred to this as well. I'm sure there's a reason no one has corrected me yet.

Net proceeds from your sale(s) of Linden Dollars remain as a credit on your Tilia account. This credit is automatically applied to your Second Life account fees as described here. If you do not want to apply your Linden Dollar sales proceeds to your account fees, you may process this portion of your account credit as a payment to you. You may only process credit due from net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Finite

[Irina Forwzy]

By the way, no one actually seen it from an angle of money laundering.   A seller can create a gacha machine.  They live in country A.  They are friends with someone in Country B.  They are trying to pass funds from one country to the other.  If you buy a no transfer item,   you can't move the funds from country A to country B. But if you do,  if you create a gacha machine.  Folks in country B can buy the item using your own funds.  Resell it in marketplace for a mark up.  And move the cash toward RL accounts.  Though this appears to be a crazy way of laundering, the indirectness of it makes it harder for one to trace it's laundering.

They used to do that with gift cards in the US and that had to be a controlled by the Fed.  Now it's harder to get larger value gift cards and if you do get one, believe that your name is in some list to review whether you are potentially laundering. 

(Random thought here)

[Arielle Popstar]

46 minutes ago, hairtuss said:

As a consumer, wouldn't you rather just buy the item you want, for a price that is fair for you and the developer, without running the risk of developing a dopamine deficiency (and all the horrible side effects) or enabling the developer to prey on those who are sensitive to developing addictions/addictive behaviors?

Just curious.

As a consumer I like to have the choice. Having the freedom of choice is a great thing when used responsibly but using it that way required me to grow up. No amount of do gooder enablers will save me from having to do that. It's like the alcoholic who quits drinking but the booze always keeps to crossing his or her path somewhere, sometime. You going to stop the rest of the world from being able to have a drink to protect that one or leave it to the problem drinker to make the choice to not pick up that drink?

Just curious.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

As a consumer I like to have the choice. Having the freedom of choice is a great thing when used responsibly but using it that way required me to grow up. No amount of do gooder enablers will save me from having to do that. It's like the alcoholic who quits drinking but the booze always keeps to crossing his or her path somewhere, sometime. You going to stop the rest of the world from being able to have a drink to protect that one or leave it to the problem drinker to make the choice to not pick up that drink?

Just curious.

False equivalence.

[Irina Forwzy]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

As a consumer I like to have the choice. Having the freedom of choice is a great thing when used responsibly but using it that way required me to grow up. No amount of do gooder enablers will save me from having to do that. It's like the alcoholic who quits drinking but the booze always keeps to crossing his or her path somewhere, sometime. You going to stop the rest of the world from being able to have a drink to protect that one or leave it to the problem drinker to make the choice to not pick up that drink?

Just curious.

In fact,  as a progressive. I think alcohol and drugs can be legalized.  Tax that to high-skies.  And then with that tax, build rehabilitation places for said folks to go to.  They want to get high, they will find a way.  Then again, both sides jump on that idea.  Even though it would be economically positive and will reduce addictions through the rehabilitation.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

As a consumer I like to have the choice. Having the freedom of choice is a great thing when used responsibly but using it that way required me to grow up. No amount of do gooder enablers will save me from having to do that. It's like the alcoholic who quits drinking but the booze always keeps to crossing his or her path somewhere, sometime. You going to stop the rest of the world from being able to have a drink to protect that one or leave it to the problem drinker to make the choice to not pick up that drink?

Just curious.

Like our RL bar. We can limit or stop serving to someone who is obviously intoxicated. We also have signs up with phone #s for alcohol addiction. About 20% don't get any booze as they come to listen to the music we feature there --- either live performers or the DJs and/or play the VLTs (Video Lottery Terminals) in the back licenced by the province.

[Cube Republic]

8 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

By the way, no one actually seen it from an angle of money laundering.   A seller can create a gacha machine.  They live in country A.  They are friends with someone in Country B.  They are trying to pass funds from one country to the other.  If you buy a no transfer item,   you can't move the funds from country A to country B. But if you do,  if you create a gacha machine.  Folks in country B can buy the item using your own funds.  Resell it in marketplace for a mark up.  And move the cash toward RL accounts.  Though this appears to be a crazy way of laundering, the indirectness of it makes it harder for one to trace it's laundering.

They used to do that with gift cards in the US and that had to be a controlled by the Fed.  Now it's harder to get larger value gift cards and if you do get one, believe that your name is in some list to review whether you are potentially laundering. 

(Random thought here)

Sure and they could communicate only by writing in prims on a private homestead they rent - joke.  I initially thought that would be a really slow way of laundering money , then I searched gachas and sorted by price on marketplace

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=✓&search[layout]=gallery&search[category_id]=&search[sort]=price_desc&search[per_page]=12&search[keywords]=gacha&search[price_low]=&search[price_high]=&search[land_impact_low]=&search[land_impact_high]=&search[copy_permission]=0&search[modify_permission]=0&search[transfer_permission]=0&search[limited_quantities]=0&search[is_demo]=0

[Cube Republic]

4 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

In fact,  as a progressive. I think alcohol and drugs can be legalized.  Tax that to high-skies.  And then with that tax, build rehabilitation places for said folks to go to.  They want to get high, they will find a way.  Then again, both sides jump on that idea.  Even though it would be economically positive and will reduce addictions through the rehabilitation.

They already do that in Colorado with weed and put the access tax into education. I don't think something you can grow in your garden should be taxed to 'high skies' though. 

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

Hi Qie. I am just going buy what's on their process credit page.

Net proceeds from your sale(s) of Linden Dollars remain as a credit on your Tilia account. This credit is automatically applied to your Second Life account fees as described here. If you do not want to apply your Linden Dollar sales proceeds to your account fees, you may process this portion of your account credit as a payment to you. You may only process credit due from net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars.

Ah, that's talking about net proceeds of LindeX sales, but it doesn't matter where the L$s came from that were sold on the LindeX. They could have been purchased with US$, and later those purchased L$s sold back to become US$s and processed as credit for cashing out or to pay account fees.

That said, I'm not entirely sure what distinction they're trying to make there. Obviously one can't cash out unconverted L$s, so that's not what they mean. I guess it's possible to deposit US$s directly into one's account, never use them to buy L$s at all, and maybe somehow that deposited US$ amount can't be cashed out ("process credit" in Tilia-speak)? But if that's true, I can't imagine why not.

[Finite]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Ah, that's talking about net proceeds of LindeX sales, but it doesn't matter where the L$s came from that were sold on the LindeX. They could have been purchased with US$, and later those purchased L$s sold back to become US$s and processed as credit for cashing out or to pay account fees.

That said, I'm not entirely sure what distinction they're trying to make there. Obviously one can't cash out unconverted L$s, so that's not what they mean. I guess it's possible to deposit US$s directly into one's account, never use them to buy L$s at all, and maybe somehow that deposited US$ amount can't be cashed out ("process credit" in Tilia-speak)? But if that's true, I can't imagine why not.

You have to sell L's in order to convert them to cash. So of course it applies to LindeX sales. Selling Ls gives you a cash balance on Tilia. You can withdraw whatever is net. The rest you can only buy more Ls with.

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

In fact,  as a progressive. I think alcohol and drugs can be legalized.  Tax that to high-skies.  And then with that tax, build rehabilitation places for said folks to go to.  They want to get high, they will find a way.  Then again, both sides jump on that idea.  Even though it would be economically positive and will reduce addictions through the rehabilitation.

Well I am not usually too impressed with state run rehabilitation centers from the people I know who have been through them. And more taxes just makes for more bureaucrats who then look for what else to tax which usually hits those least able to afford them. Bit of a vicious circle.

[Nicky Macabre]

Getting rid of gachas is one of the best things to happen to SL in a very long time. It's honestly astonishing and a little shameful how long it's taken LL to crack down on them. Gambling may be fun for some but it's a cancer for all. I do not want there to be an "alternative" (aka loophole 2.0) to come into our virtual world.

[Irina Forwzy]

4 minutes ago, Cube Republic said:

Sure and they could communicate only by writing in prims on a private homestead they rent - joke.  I initially thought that would be a really slow way of laundering money , then I searched gachas and sorted by price on marketplace

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=✓&search[layout]=gallery&search[category_id]=&search[sort]=price_desc&search[per_page]=12&search[keywords]=gacha&search[price_low]=&search[price_high]=&search[land_impact_low]=&search[land_impact_high]=&search[copy_permission]=0&search[modify_permission]=0&search[transfer_permission]=0&search[limited_quantities]=0&search[is_demo]=0

Gift card continues to be the mechanism by which that is done. As well as more than likely online currencies. But for those that are testing the waters with small amounts, SL may be it.  I don't necessarily know what vendors make. I do however know that if I could heads and I apply percentage into some of these events, my estimates are high. While in others not as much.

The big players though, they used to use gift cards. Which was made me hate them with a passion at work, though I used to be their SME due to their dual nature of both a product and a payment method.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

14 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Like our RL bar. We can limit or stop serving to someone who is obviously intoxicated. We also have signs up with phone #s for alcohol addiction. About 20% don't get any booze as they come to listen to the music we feature there --- either live performers or the DJs and/or play the VLTs (Video Lottery Terminals) in the back licenced by the province.

I didn't realize the percentage was so high. When I did used to attend some local events at a bar, I sort of felt a awkward that I wasn't contributing my fair share to the entertainment. Too many pop/sodas gave me a sugar hangover the next morning

[Irina Forwzy]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well I am not usually too impressed with state run rehabilitation centers from the people I know who have been through them. And more taxes just makes for more bureaucrats who then look for what else to tax which usually hits those least able to afford them. Bit of a vicious circle.

Then improve them. That's what we should seek in Government. Not for it to be demolished while private enterprise that is run by the very same humans can continue to make decisions at their financial benefit. Because it is their only objective.

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

You have to sell L's in order to convert them to cash. So of course it applies to LindeX sales. Selling Ls gives you a cash balance on Tilia. You can withdraw whatever is net. The rest you can only buy more Ls with.

Perhaps, but I understood you to be distinguishing "net Lindens"—meaning L$s earned in-world—as convertible, as opposed to L$ purchased on the LindeX (or, I suppose, through the viewer's front-end to the LindeX), which I was pointing out are also convertible and hence have monetary value.

[Dorientje Woller]

7 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Like our RL bar. We can limit or stop serving to someone who is obviously intoxicated. We also have signs up with phone #s for alcohol addiction. About 20% don't get any booze as they come to listen to the music we feature there --- either live performers or the DJs and/or play the VLTs (Video Lottery Terminals) in the back licenced by the province.

You beat me to it. Was about to tell that, if I was a bar owner, I can stop serve people who are getting drunk. Even better described, I have the duty to make sure that the concerned person isn't leaving my bar in an intoxicated state, coz at the end of the day if that person gets an accident or causes an accident, I might get hold responsible and loose my license. 

[Finite]

5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Perhaps, but I understood you to be distinguishing "net Lindens"—meaning L$s earned in-world—as convertible, as opposed to L$ purchased on the LindeX (or, I suppose, through the viewer's front-end to the LindeX), which I was pointing out are also convertible and hence have monetary value.

Any linden you buy is through lindex. Any linden you sell is through lindex. If you have a net difference between what you have ever bought and what you have ever sold you can withdraw that difference.

If lindens had an actual monetary value that would put them into an entirely different business bracket. They would be much more heavily scrutinized such as a bank would and gacha would be the least of their concerns.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Finite

[Silent Mistwalker]

17 minutes ago, Cube Republic said:

They already do that in Colorado with weed and put the access tax into education. I don't think something you can grow in your garden should be taxed to 'high skies' though. 

Here they don't tax homegrown, only what you buy in the dispensaries.

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 minutes ago, Death Incognito said:

Getting rid of gachas is one of the best things to happen to SL in a very long time. It's honestly astonishing and a little shameful how long it's taken LL to crack down on them. Gambling may be fun for some but it's a cancer for all. I do not want there to be an "alternative" (aka loophole 2.0) to come into our virtual world.

Too late.

[Nicky Macabre]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Too late.

Hopefully people (consumers) realize that that conveyor belt machine idea is just as much of a scam.

[Rowan Amore]

Because Linden dollars has a determinable value in the real market, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCen), a bureau of the United States Department of the Treasury, recognized Linden Money as a convertible centralized virtual currency in 2013. This means that there are tax implications for any transaction involving Linden Dollars.

So although LL sees the Linden as a token, the US Treasury doesn't see it that way.

https://modemworld.me/2013/04/05/the-linden-dollar-token-or-currency-the-us-treasury-ponders/

[Irina Forwzy]

1 minute ago, Death Incognito said:

Hopefully people (consumers) realize that that conveyor belt machine idea is just as much of a scam.

They will not.  Some companies will also leave SL. And some creators will make less profit and eventually leave.  Unless the gacha buyers were to buy fatpacks. Then maybe.  But they wont. Most played 2k for one or two items, the rest were extras they could reuse if they wanted or resell to someone that actually wanted it.

They will still be financially hit if they get the thrill just by shopping in sl. As many people do either way.  If someone wants to buy, they will buy.

[Irina Forwzy]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Because Linden dollars has a determinable value in the real market, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCen), a bureau of the United States Department of the Treasury, recognized Linden Money as a convertible centralized virtual currency in 2013. This means that there are tax implications for any transaction involving Linden Dollars.

So although LL sees the Linden as a token, the US Treasury doesn't see it that way.

https://modemworld.me/2013/04/05/the-linden-dollar-token-or-currency-the-us-treasury-ponders/

That's because our Treasury is trying to tax us for it.  (Laundering is also an issue they see). 

[Qie Niangao]

7 minutes ago, Finite said:

Any linden you buy is through lindex. Any linden you sell is through lindex. If you have a net difference between what you have ever bought and what you have ever sold you can withdraw that difference.

It doesn't say that, though. It refers to cashing out "net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars" meaning the US$ from those sales, net of fees, regardless of where those L$s arose. They could all have been bought, converted back to US$s in LindeX sales, and it all can be cashed-out.