New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

If you should sell your statues in ordinary vendors, you price them. Maybe somebody is stupid enough to believe you creators will use the pull price. I have not read some believing it in this thread. I have read people saying they would pay more for copy/no trans.

So there is 2 options: Don't sell anything, and be bitter.

Or: Sell your goods for the price you set. Then people can buy them or not. At least the money goes to you, and not a reseller.

Exactly!  I would never expect them to sell their items at the gacha price nor have the same permissions.  If it were a statue I really loved, I'd happily pay 500L as opposed to the 50L gacha price.  They could also sell a no copy/transfer for a bit less.  Several places I've shopped do that.  The copy/no trans version is quite a bit more expensive than the no copy/transfer.

[Stella Davros]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Welcome to LIFE.  There are always people that are going to disagree, not be happy, whine and complain about things.  Rather than lashing out at such folks, life is much more pleasant if they are simply ignored.

Yes u have absolutely right

[Komarimono]

1 minute ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

A fatpack is not a regular set. If the store sells the set in singles, this is to be generous to those who only want a specific color/ print design. A set is the entire collection in 1 buy. Many people do not like to buy, one by one. A fatpack is a bundle deal. You get the entire set with a small discount, from 100 to 200L. some creators might offer 300L off of a fatpack.

Nowadays, new creators do not know what a fatpack is, see it at older stores, and assume it means the collection. Or assume all sets should be given that small discount.

This could be why the person was offended or perhaps the way it was worded, was offensive.

I'm confused.  Every event I've been to, and store I've seen in the Marketplace, they already sell them individually or in a set.  Said Set, is a Fatpack, containing every item of the singles.  Most use a HUD and one item per body/Hair type.  The HUD just hainvg unlocked all the options of the set, so access to all colors.

If you're referring to Tops only sets vs Entire clothing of Top+Bottoms+Accessories sets, both I've seen in Fatpacks.  Depends on the creator really.

[Katherine Heartsong]

25 minutes ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

Somehow, you decided to turn what I said into a negative one.

what I said does not cancel out creators who want to offer their products at a low price to be generous.

My store? I sell shapes and tattoos. I am not a graphic designer irl, thus I cannot sell what I make in here. 

I have not attacked anyone's real life and the fact you think it's okay, while trying to seem like you are a kind person in your post, is an oxymoron and deceptive.

Please go back to the first post in this thread made by the Linden staff, and see what this thread is about.

Harassment is against the TOS for SL, both in game and in the forum.

You like to assume much out of me.

I used to blog for creators who did it for fun and to offer their products for pennies, to help the community of those with poor budgets in real life.

I too, have given away a lot of my products in the past. You may think my store is new, if you had a look at my marketplace store.

I constantly remove older products since I often self critique myself.

I just learned recently how to make my art look good on upload, but I am still learning and am still a far cry from mastering the technique to prevent blurriness of textures.

Anyhow, please do not attack me and others, when you try to seem good within the same post.

I will not reply again if you attack me again.

I was in no way attacking you or harrassing, I was commenting on your opinion that ..

"The end game is about turning a profit. After all, this is a business virtual platform to make real money. "

That's an opinion that is your reality, but that's not a universal fact, sweetie. I'm an example of that. Myend game goal as a MP seller and creator is not that, so that statement from a logical point of view is false. I would not have commented if you had said it like this ...

"My businesses end game is about turning a profit. After all, this is a business virtual platform that allows me to make real money. "

To your next point: This thread? Is simply about the fact that gachas are considered gambling. They are illegal in many jurisdictions. This 100+ page thread is started and is about LL's legal department and the company stating that gachas are going away.

Nothing more, nothing less.

It is not about how to get around it, how to make a profit without it, whether we us SL players like it or not. I'm sure LL was expecting blowback, but 100 pages of a lot of folks not getting this simple fact?

Hence my (slightly snarky, apologies) remark about how many people can not seem to be able to acknowledge this. Gachas are going away.

How we, as merchants deal with it, is a business decision.

Aside ... I am actually one of the quiet, often helpful within my abilities, and empathic folks you'll run across here normally. But this whole notion that any of us will make LL change their minds is simply tiring and an exercise in futility. We're not going to.

So back to my challenge ... As a business, how can you imagine adapting to this new rule? What cool thing will you do to still make that profit?" I'm excited and curious to see what amazing things you'll do.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Katherine Heartsong

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

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Edited August 5, 2021 by Kytteh Wytchwood

[Stella Davros]

6 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

So back to my challenge ... As a business, how can you imagine adapting to this new rule? What cool thing will you do to still make that profit?" I'm excited and curious to see what amazing things you'll do

This can be possible :

for me would be better to implement gacha into a skill game machine as I said before....you go in the event or region and you will sit,play and instead to win money you will win itams , the bonus will be the rare and the Jackpot all the set, all the item will be transfert like this can be traded or resold....everybody happy and is legal as in this way gacha (obviously must to be called in other way) will be skill game ....i sayd zyngo but can be also no devil or wathever

[Ted McGregor]

Just on a sidenote here as a mere consumer : I stumbled upon gachas from creators I appreciate, but always looked up the rares on MP and buy them directly if availiable. 

Aside trying a machine once or twice to understand it's concept, I immediately decided for myself back then to never use a machine again to acquire a favoured item.

I for one will not miss them.

Edited August 5, 2021 by TDD123

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, LemmeStore said:

Hello, Im the owner of a store called LEMME. My store is half gacha based. This message goes to creators and events looking for new solutions to this big change.

I had an idea inspired on Epiphany exclusive item to the next possible fun-sale system. I just wanted to share it to see what you think and if it can be one of the possible proposals.

What if we (designers) keep creating complete sets, like we used to do in gacha. Then , at the events or mainstores, we release them by selling all the separate items, so the customer can cleary see and choose what to buy. But in adition of making this more fun , every "common" item gives you points, like in Epiphany. Every common gives you 1 point, and then you get RARE for free, as a "gift", only if you buy and complete the whole set. Once you have all the points (if the set has 12 items, then 12 points) you click on Rare and you get it. Can be the rare or can be another second "rare" ...who knows, just thinking out loud. Ofc this doesnt imply to trade your points in order to get this "gift or rare" thing. You get the points, you keep your items and you obtain this prize.

And we can value the commons prices by its complexity etc having a range prices based on that. I mean, is just one idea for some sets, and we can still sell some others as fatpack or individual and give the chance to buy a "rare" directly.

Maybe is a silly proposal but I think we need to start thinking on what to do, specially the stores like mine, based on gachas.

Im not trying to iniciate a discussion based on negative reactions, so please just reply if you think this could work or if you can make it better, or why this wouldnt work at all comments are ofc welcome too. But Im not in the mood to read if gacha is gambling or is not. Gachas are gone, we move on looking for creative solutions that work in a fun and also legal way

@Patch Linden

I think Lemme is on to something here. Maybe toss this one at the legal team and see what they think?

[Yingzi Xue]

Full Disclosure—I stopped after reading several pages of the thread to write this reply.  I haven't read all posts yet and I don't know if I will.  Long time creator here.  I have never used gacha machines to sell my own products, but I have purchased many products from gacha machines over the years.

My own experience has been that I feel the same feeling from gacha machines that I get from slot machines.  The desire for the rare prize, the endless optimism that the next purchase will be the rare, the exhilaration of the game of chance.  It can be addictive.  I've emptied my meager account a time or two in the pursuit of the rare.  I've purchased extra money so that I could try again.

The illusion of value of a rare is what makes gacha so alluring.  Actual value of said rares vary.  Some rares are just a retexture, while others are unique models.  The amount of time a creator spends on a rare might be a few seconds to a few hours.  Sometimes the rare is worth it, but most of the time it's not.  Gacha enables consumers to willfully spend way over the actual worth of the product in pursuit of the shiny bauble.  This, of course, greatly benefits the creator/seller as any extra money paid is free cash that they would otherwise never receive from the sale of their products.

I can see why creators and sellers might be upset.  Gacha is a cash cow.  Gacha enables creators to earn well beyond the actual worth of their product.  If anything, the removal of gacha levels the playing field, and forces creators of gacha content to sell their products at market prices.  In my view, that's a win for the consumer.

I can see why consumers might be upset.  I do admit, I will miss the thrill of paying a gacha machine, but I won't miss the zero balance on my account, and the creator in me is happy that consumers won't be taken advantage of anymore—even if they are/were willing participants.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Yingzi Xue

[Komarimono]

5 minutes ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

It can be very confusing, as many creators mimic what other creators do, whether they understand why it is done or not.

A collection can be tops or a complete outfit. What is set out in their store for 1 product, will inform you which type of collection it is.

Please re-read my first reply to you. I would quote it but now we are on a different page in this thread.

I explain what the term fatpack means and why new creators are naming sets as fatpacks.

This will clear up your confusion.

Didn't clear up any confusion at all.  Not seeing a difference between Fatpacks and "Collections" other then the word.  You'd have to more then likely give examples of the differences, since while this account is not as old as my mains, I've never seen those two words considered separate.

[Katherine Heartsong]

4 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

This can be possible :

for me would be better to implement gacha into a skill game machine as I said before....you go in the event or region and you will sit,play and instead to win money you will win itams , the bonus will be the rare and the Jackpot all the set, all the item will be transfert like this can be traded or resold....everybody happy and is legal as in this way gacha (obviously must to be called in other way) will be skill game ....i sayd zyngo but can be also no devil or wathever

I have no clue, as i have never played a skill game here, and even back when I started never gambled, but I like people who are willing to explore ideas.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Katherine Heartsong said:

I have no clue, as i have never played a skill game here, and even back when I started never gambled, but I like people who are willing to explore ideas.

I tried gambling at a casino at 18, and it didn't get me excited or my dopamine kicking me to do more. I was more excited that they had free Soda and sat in the lounge and just drank free soda all day. 

[Katherine Heartsong]

5 minutes ago, Yingzi Xue said:

Full Disclosure—I stopped after reading several pages of the thread to write this reply.  I haven't read all posts yet and I don't know if I will.  Long time creator here.  I have never used gacha machines to sell my own products, but I have purchased many products from gacha machines over the years.

My own experience has been that I feel the same feeling from gacha machines that I get from slot machines.  The desire for the rare prize, the endless optimism that the next purchase will be the rare, the exhilaration of the game of chance.  It can be addictive.  I've emptied my meager account a time or two in the pursuit of the rare.  I've purchased extra money so that I could try again.

The illusion of value of a rare is what makes gacha so alluring.  Actual value of said rares vary.  Some rares are just a retexture, while others are unique models.  The amount of time a creator spends on a rare might be a few seconds to a few hours.  Sometimes the rare is worth it, but most of the time it's not.  Gacha enables consumers to willfully spend way over the actual worth of the product in pursuit of the shiny bauble.  This, of course, greatly benefits the creator/seller as any extra money paid is free cash that they would otherwise never receive from the sale of their products.

I can see why creators and sellers might be upset.  Gacha is a cash cow.  Gacha enables creators to earn well beyond the actual worth of their product.  If anything, the removal of gacha levels the playing field, and forces creators of gacha content to sell their products at market prices.  In my view, that's a win for the consumer.

I can see why consumers might be upset.  I do admit, I will miss the thrill of paying a gacha machine, but I won't miss the zero balance on my account, and the creator in me is happy that consumers won't be taken advantage of anymore—even if they are/were willing participants.

Wish I could give you more Likes on that post. Thanks. You stated that very eloquently.

[Arielle Popstar]

12 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

To your next point: This thread? Is simply about the fact that gachas are considered gambling. They are illegal in many jurisdictions. This 100+ page thread is started and is about LL's legal department and the company stating that gachas are going away.

I've only seen a link to an article that mentioned 4 jurisdictions, one of which would be ok with the type of setup the S/L Gachas are. Where is a list of these many jurisdictions you and a few others here speak of?

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

That happens in real life, owners of stores and even companies have regulations put on them on what product they sell to who. Like would you want cigarettes or alcohol sold to minors? Would you want food that has clearly gone bad to be sold to consumers. This is a normal practice in Real life. It is not called dictation, it's called regulation. 

Those are laws/regulations not events in SL. Big difference. 

Sorry but your comparisons have nothing to do with what I was talking about last night.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

Didn't clear up any confusion at all.  Not seeing a difference between Fatpacks and "Collections" other then the word.  You'd have to more then likely give examples of the differences, since while this account is not as old as my mains, I've never seen those two words considered separate.

The only difference I can see is having to make 10 separate purchases as opposed to one single purchase called a fat pack.  So now I have 10 things to unpack, 10 folders to.sort instead of one folder with a texture HUD.   Yeah, why would anyone do that?

[Stella Davros]

1 minute ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I have no clue, as i have never played a skill game here, and even back when I started never gambled, but I like people who are willing to explore ideas.

Thanks , obviously mine is just an idea but if someone can consider this idea will be great....anyway if skill game are allowed and in one point also this machines play randomly....if we combine the two things should be legal i mean instead of money you will get items every spin you will win something based on the skill and you can have rare as a bonus and full set as a jackpot ....still gambling but how they say if is skill is legal

[Drake1 Nightfire]

11 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Just providing info.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_in_the_United_States#Legality

And some may want to scroll down a little and read the section pertaining to First Nations gaming.

There's also a nice chart that shows which states ban which type of gambling.

Your link backs up my statement.. 
"While gambling is legal under U.S. federal law, there are significant restrictions pertaining to interstate and online gambling, as each state is free to regulate or prohibit the practice within its borders."

When someone says "blah blah is illegal in the US" they mean federally. Federally, gambling is legal. Each state has their own restrictions which is why we have skilled gaming regions. Mind you i cant find anything that chart that applies to the states on the skilled gaming list that have commonality.. I mean, Delaware allows all types of gambling... Yet... 

Delaware is on the list.... 

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

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Edited August 5, 2021 by Kytteh Wytchwood

[LittleMe Jewell]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I tried gambling at a casino at 18, and it didn't get me excited or my dopamine kicking me to do more. I was more excited that they had free Soda and sat in the lounge and just drank free soda all day. 

Way back in the day, you used to be able to sit down at a video poker bar in Vegas, drop $20 in, play for hours (if you were good enough) and get free drinks the entire time -- definitely more than $20 worth of drinks.

Very few of the casinos offer free drinks to the random public now -- usually only to the high rollers.

[LittleMe Jewell]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The only difference I can see is having to make 10 separate purchases as opposed to one single purchase called a fat pack.  So now I have 10 things to unpack, 10 folders to.sort instead of one folder with a texture HUD.   Yeah, why would anyone do that?

They would if that was the only way to get all of the items and the "gift".  

Otherwise, yep just buying the fatpack is faster/easier.

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

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Edited August 5, 2021 by Kytteh Wytchwood

[Drake1 Nightfire]

11 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I tried gambling at a casino at 18, and it didn't get me excited or my dopamine kicking me to do more. I was more excited that they had free Soda and sat in the lounge and just drank free soda all day. 

Most bars and... gentlemen's clubs will do the same for the designated driver.. 

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

One cannot assume that rezz only products have a high polygon amount or a low quality texture.

Let's say if the creator knows how to do low poly with high resolution details over it, then you have an excellent product.

But if they don't have the product rezzed out for inspection, you'll never know.  Clothing, however, usually has a demo.  Everything else, not so much.  You literally do not know what you are purchasing regarding it's texture quality or triangle count.

[Komarimono]

3 minutes ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

Okay, I'll try giving an example of real life products.

Say you are viewing a jewelry store online.

You see you can buy the ring, earrings, necklace and charm bracelet individually.

You can either buy them as only diamonds with no stones set or buy the diamonds with the stones set in, like rubies, sapphires, emeralds and so forth.

There is an option to buy the entire collection in one purchase but there is no discount applied.

Then there is an option to buy their bundle set, where you can get a discount price as well as get bonus products for buying this bundle set.

I hope this cleared it up for you.

I don't think real life applies here.  I was looking for examples based in the Market Place or In World stores.  I see what you're getting out though.  But don't think it really applies well and not what they were referring to at all.  Since buying all the items of the set, and getting a bonus, would be no different then setting it up as a Fatpack to save on the hassle of it.