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8 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The shields have been shown to be better at protecting you from others, but also shown to not protect others from you quite as well as a mask -- because you could sneeze/cough/whatever and the droplets would still fall out below the shield.  That is why many places require a mask rather than just a face shield. The airlines initially allowed just a face shield, but now all require a mask, either with the shield or instead of the shield.  Colorado initially required a mask or shield and now requires a mask - even though there are still a few places where I'll see the employees wearing just the face shield.

I keep my mask on the whole time..

It's not just for the virus that I wear the shield.. I've been walking passed one of the lines and been hit with a part that bounced out of the  dumpsters they use.. Someone was throwing a part into the dumpster and whatever it hit cause another part to fly out at me  and hit me in the shoulder.. plus have gotten metal in my eye when I went to a line to give some paperwork to one of the guys.. the other guy was using a blow gun and blew the table off not seeing me there.. I had safety glasses on and that didn't stop it.. That was the worst!

So I just started to wear one out there any time I go out there now. But i don't spend much time out there..

But it never crossed my mind about it helping with the virus until I seen your post.. hehehe

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20 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

According to this fact-checking website USA Today falls very slightly to the left of center. But then we need to put this fact-checking website through an evaluation too!  lol

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/usa-today-2/

I'm no expert on the subject, but checking this site's descriptions of a number of news sources (CNN, Fox, BBC, CBC) suggests to me that they're pretty good -- which is of course to say that their evaluations of those sources pretty closely correspond with my own perceptions.

Better to trust something than nothing I guess, since authoritarianism seeks to cause mistrust in all our institutions and I'm not going to cooperate with this plan! I really didn't know fully that the 'creation of mistrust in institutions' was a chapter out of the authoritarian playbook until a few months ago, and going back many years have been perplexed by the bizarre behavior of Trump as he began to sew mistrust (the birtherism, trying to invalidate Obama by saying he wasn't born here...causing many to distrust the validity of the presidency). I thought he was just a screwy celebrity trying to drum up attention any way he could. Little did I know this was actually a beginning plan to circumvent Democracy.

Anyway, what source to trust -- not an easy task. I watch the news channels with a grain of salt, and have taken up reading scholars much smarter than I and who have spent years studying various issues. Some of them (like Anne Applebaum) I discovered via watching news channels or reading what might be considered more left-wing mags (if TheAtlantic is indeed considered such). Interestingly though, Applebaum has been more of a conservative throughout her life, and perhaps that's why I trust her criticism of the 'right' even more. So far, I'm agreeing with her take on Covid when sorting through the unfortunate politicization of this crisis.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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On 11/17/2020 at 6:57 AM, Qie Niangao said:
On 11/16/2020 at 1:40 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Agree with some of the speculation. We also have to consider the phenomenon of denial.

People who can't handle their fear well often go into denial about the dangers they face in order to believe they are strong, sometimes even increasing the danger as proof they can't be harmed (protesting a bit too much).  An uncomfortable mask covering a large proportion of your head kind of prevents that guise!

I was just watching earlier a nurse describing some of her patients dying from Covid, protesting they don't have Covid as they die in some kind of denial fit, wasting the last moments they could be face-timing with family.

Expand  

Yeah, I saw this bubbling to the top of Twitter a couple days ago:

(Must click through the thread to see it all.)

This is what baffles me though. Doesn't everybody know personally and trust somebody in medicine? A doctor or a nurse or a nursing assistant or an orderly or somebody? Who are the COVID deniers who don't get a stern talking-to by their medical friend(s)?

At this point there can be hardly a hospital in the US that doesn't at least have a contingency plan for refrigerated trailers in the parking lot.

What kind of death cult has been running this country?

Well, Qie, I didn't respond to your disturbance very well during my first attempt because I felt so much grief after watching the morgue-trucks in El Paso.

But about this "death cult"  running the country that you mention, and how to understand it. I really got a better comprehension after reading this piece by Anne Applebaum, where she speaks to the intoxication of power and how this turned the Republican party into something beyond recognition.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/trumps-collaborators/612250/

We all like to think we wouldn't choose such a course, and it's scary to know that even apparently principled and intelligent people can so easily lose their moorings.

If even they can compromise their morals how much easier must it be for those outside of public office to go into denial, suffering from joblessness and a lack of meaning, and craving a strongman savior to make it all better.

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I'm not really venting about anything specific, I'm just FREAKIN TIRED OF IT ALL.  Though the below probably adds to my negative attitude about everything right now.

Just under 2 weeks ago - Nov 6th -  my county moved from our state's yellow level to orange. It reduced indoor restaurant capacity levels from 50% to 25% - and did the same capacity reductions for offices and personal services (hair stylists, etc..).  We were notified today that this Fri, Nov 20th, we will be moved to the red level, which closes indoor dining entirely, and reduces offices back down to 10% capacity.  Oddly enough, neither the orange or red levels reduce retails stores' capacity from the 50% level

We have only eaten at a restaurant once since this started - at a steakhouse to get my free birthday dinner back in late Sept. - but I'm still confused as to why restaurant restrictions keep reducing at each level when retail shopping doesn't change.

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

We have only eaten at a restaurant once since this started - at a steakhouse to get my free birthday dinner back in late Sept. - but I'm still confused as to why restaurant restrictions keep reducing at each level when retail shopping doesn't change.

I think this is because people don't take their masks off to shop, nor do they spend significant time in close proximity as they might in an office or at a hair stylist.

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I think this is because people don't take their masks off to shop, nor do they spend significant time in close proximity as they might in an office or at a hair stylist.

Honestly I feel much safer at the hair stylist then I do shopping at the local Wal-mart simply because the stylist shop has a much better ability to control its environment with the cleaning and wiping down after each client and only one at a time. Wal Mart or any other busy retail store has herds of people tromping through touching all the different products with potentially covid infected fingers as well as sneezes and coughing spraying germ and virus laden phlegm on everything exposed. How can shopping be anything but a super spreader event regardless of masks. Reality is that such venues should require a HazMat suit. 

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On 11/17/2020 at 12:00 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm no expert on the subject, but checking this site's descriptions of a number of news sources (CNN, Fox, BBC, CBC) suggests to me that they're pretty good -- which is of course to say that their evaluations of those sources pretty closely correspond with my own perceptions.

All of those are big corporate owned media with similar agendas. They pat each other's backs.

CNN and BBC are jokes. The information they fail to provide distorts the view of the world.

18 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

...

When I asked the nursing coordinator about it after a few classes, her response was that studies proved that most people would revert to their old lifestyles within a few months, not out of being actively rebellious but simply because it is what they knew and were comfortable with. Doctors and nurses see what happens when people don't follow safety protocols but for the majority of the population, these diseases are invisible and come down to no more than numbers on a stats page, regardless of how often they have it on the nightly news.

This is a problem... People have a narrow view and assume it is the general. The medical and psychological professions see the CoVid/Lock Down issues very differently. Specialization and small circles of experience lead people miss understand reality. They quickly adopt group think and seldom question their thinking and opinions or look at other aspects of the problem.

13 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I wear a face shield when I go out into the production area now.. We have some really nice ones too.. We've had them the whole time even  before there was any virus.. They are mostly to keep metal from blowing in someones face or to slow down molten metal..

I only have to wear it for a few minutes, maybe 20 at the most at a time, so it's not too bad.. But someone would pretty much have to hurl on you to give you something.. hehehe

This video is an interesting visualization of what is happening with breathing, coughing, and masks. Obviously air has to pass through. The speed and volume can be reduced by a mask. A good thing for limiting spread but have you considered what that does to you lungs?

The thing they do not mention is the virus is too small to be caught by a mask, even N95. But, since even lame masks catch significant numbers of water droplets the huge number of virus particles in droplets are caught. But, those passing through being smaller droplets and as the water evaporates it leaves the virus suspended in the air, now considered an aerosol, which would make CoVid airborne.

The aerosol can penetrate even the N95 masks. And some masks atomize the water droplets to the point that more small water droplets are produced than if no mask were worn. The total volume with a mask is smaller, but with no masks larger droplets make up more of the total volume. Those large droplets settle out much faster, thus the reason for social distancing. But, which is better? Small droplets going aerosol? Large droplets settling on surfaces?

We simply do not have good information on the transmission of CoVid and how effective or ineffective masks are. It was first thought to be person-to-person (droplets are person-to-person), then opinions quickly changed to airborne, and now probably not airborne but researchers are unsure. However, something like 80% of the people wearing masks caught CoVid. Not a good number. This makes it hard to know what helps and doesn't help. Vitamin D may be a better preventative than masks. But many people are in too panic to hear facts.

While it seems intuitive masks will help stop the spread, masks also create respiratory problems. No one has figured out the benefit to harm ratios. We have no numbers on how many are and are not wearing masks or how conscientious they are/were in wearing them. So the question comes up... if masks may not be more beneficial than not, why force people to wear them?

Of the 11.6 million cases in the USA 250+k have died. Why are the 11.4 million made to wear a mask and suffer possible respiratory damage? Especially now that research is showing SAR/CoVid immunity likely lasts decades.

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9 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

All of those are big corporate owned media with similar agendas. They pat each other's backs.

CNN and BBC are jokes. The information they fail to provide distorts the view of the world.

This is a problem... People have a narrow view and assume it is the general. The medical and psychological professions see the CoVid/Lock Down issues very differently. Specialization and small circles of experience lead people miss understand reality. They quickly adopt group think and seldom question their thinking and opinions or look at other aspects of the problem.

This video is an interesting visualization of what is happening with breathing, coughing, and masks. Obviously air has to pass through. The speed and volume can be reduced by a mask. A good thing for limiting spread but have you considered what that does to you lungs?

The thing they do not mention is the virus is too small to be caught by a mask, even N95. But, since even lame masks catch significant numbers of water droplets the huge number of virus particles in droplets are caught. But, those passing through being smaller droplets and as the water evaporates it leaves the virus suspended in the air, now considered an aerosol, which would make CoVid airborne.

The aerosol can penetrate even the N95 masks. And some masks atomize the water droplets to the point that more small water droplets are produced than if no mask were worn. The total volume with a mask is smaller, but with no masks larger droplets make up more of the total volume. Those large droplets settle out much faster, thus the reason for social distancing. But, which is better? Small droplets going aerosol? Large droplets settling on surfaces?

We simply do not have good information on the transmission of CoVid and how effective or ineffective masks are. It was first thought to be person-to-person (droplets are person-to-person), then opinions quickly changed to airborne, and now probably not airborne but researchers are unsure. However, something like 80% of the people wearing masks caught CoVid. Not a good number. This makes it hard to know what helps and doesn't help. Vitamin D may be a better preventative than masks. But many people are in too panic to hear facts.

While it seems intuitive masks will help stop the spread, masks also create respiratory problems. No one has figured out the benefit to harm ratios. We have no numbers on how many are and are not wearing masks or how conscientious they are/were in wearing them. So the question comes up... if masks may not be more beneficial than not, why force people to wear them?

Of the 11.6 million cases in the USA 250+k have died. Why are the 11.4 million made to wear a mask and suffer possible respiratory damage? Especially now that research is showing SAR/CoVid immunity likely lasts decades.

I don't have much choice at work, Their rules.. A lot don't follow the rules, but I find the second a person gets lazy with them, it's harder for them to go back to following them again.

I've been back at work since May. The week they told a few of us to come back I started jacking up my health and immunity pretty much double what i was before..

I've got boxes of filters with 20 filters in a box for my mask that are 5 layers filters..The mask has two vents with diverters on them, which whatever air comes out splashes on me.. In my office I don't worry about wearing a mask or a shield..

Nobody comes in my office because there is no reason for them to.. At night nobody else is in the main offices where mine is.. The supervisors have their own office in each section of the plant, A,B and C sections. if they need me, they call me on the radio and I go out into the production area or machining or which ever department needs me..

When I go home, my office gets locked because each person doing the job I do on another shift has their own office. If we have to deal with other people it's usually through the radio or in another department..

I have to check my temperature every day before going to work.. If I have any kind of fever or any symptoms I have to go get tested.. If it's a false alarm, I'm still off for a week with pay..

First time i heard they were doing that, I thought to myself. People are gonna be playing this up big time and saying they have fever or symptoms when they don't.. But nobody really has so far.. That amazed me more than anything right there.. hehehe

If I end up getting the virus, I'll shake it off like I did the H1N1.. All that did was make me sleepy.. I'm fit as a fiddle and in the best shape of my life right now.. My husband and boys are eating what i'm making them, so we're in pretty good shape  if one of us gets it..

people need to worry about eating right and jacking up their immunity system more than anything.. Get healthy

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Off topic perhaps , but how do we feel about a (hypothetical) mandatory COVID vaccine?

I don't expect it to be mandatory in the US, but even if it is, people will still be allowed to opt out for various reasons. 

We already have so-call 'mandatory' vaccines that children must get before going to school, but parents are allowed to opt out for religious reasons or even for no reason other than "I don't trust it".

 

ETA:  I didn't actually fully answer your question though.  I will opt out of the vaccine, mandatory or not.  I haven't had a flu shot in over a decade and haven't had the flu in that long either.  The last few times I did get the flu were the same years that I got the shot.  I see no reason to intentionally introduce the virus, in any form, into my body.

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1 hour ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Off topic perhaps , but how do we feel about a (hypothetical) mandatory COVID vaccine?

What I'm concerned about is a half-assed vaccine released under an emergency use authorization. It's not a big deal to me since I'm not in one of the groups that would be anywhere near the first in line for it. By the time it's available for general use I think we'll have a better idea how safe and effective it is. If we aren't up to our ears in dead paramedics next spring, mandatory vaccinations is an idea worth considering. The evidence suggests that leaving public health measures up to individuals has produced sub optimal results.

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55 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I see no reason to intentionally introduce the virus, in any form, into my body.

Neither the Pfizer nor Moderna vaccines contain the virus, in any form. Each vaccine uses messenger RNA to instruct your body's cells to produce a single spike protein found on the surface of the Covid-19 virus. Your body then mounts an immune defense against that spike protein. Should you be exposed to Covid-19, your immune defense will be ready for it.

This is, I think, the first time we've made vaccines without using the actual virus as a scaffold. In the past, we've damaged the target virus to the point it's no longer, or minimally infectious, yet remains recognizable to the immune system. Here, they're using genetic engineering to induce the body to produce a recognizable trigger for the immune system without needing any of the virus scaffolding. That means there is no chance of replication of the vaccine. The dose you get is all you'll get.

There are, of course, concerns that the spike protein might exist elsewhere in normal people, and priming the immune system to attack it might provoke an auto-immune response. That same risk occurs from exposure to Covid-19, which exacerbates the situation by replicating itself.

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39 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

If we aren't up to our ears in dead paramedics next spring, mandatory vaccinations is an idea worth considering.

There is that.  

There will be mandatory vaccination for the front line folks.  If the majority manage to come out of it without some serious side effect after 3-6 months, then it does give one more hope for this extremely rushed process.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Neither the Pfizer nor Moderna vaccines contain the virus, in any form. Each vaccine uses messenger RNA to instruct your body's cells to produce a single spike protein found on the surface of the Covid-19 virus. Your body then mounts an immune defense against that spike protein. Should you be exposed to Covid-19, your immune defense will be ready for it.

This is, I think, the first time we've made vaccines without using the actual virus as a scaffold. In the past, we've damaged the target virus to the point it's no longer, or minimally infectious, yet remains recognizable to the immune system. Here, they're using genetic engineering to induce the body to produce a recognizable trigger for the immune system without needing any of the virus scaffolding. That means there is no chance of replication of the vaccine. The dose you get is all you'll get.

There are, of course, concerns that the spike protein might exist elsewhere in normal people, and priming the immune system to attack it might provoke an auto-immune response. That same risk occurs from exposure to Covid-19, which exacerbates the situation by replicating itself.

Good to know.  As you can tell, I haven't done any intense research in to the vaccines yet, as we are still quite a ways out from it even being administered to the lay folks (at least IMO).

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29 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

concerns that the spike protein might exist elsewhere in normal people, and priming the immune system to attack it

I hope it's not the spike protein that prevents zombification! Since I have an immune problem I plan on being one of the first to take the vaccine, and then I'm flying out to visit my daughter and grandson.
Grandma's here!!!!!!!!!
 

zombie woman.png

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2 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Off topic perhaps , but how do we feel about a (hypothetical) mandatory COVID vaccine?

An interesting question, Gage...I hadn't really thought about it.

I think I'm against it unless the situation became more severe and society was pretty much in danger of breaking down in major ways.

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19 hours ago, Mollymews said:

am quite encouraged by the latest news about the potential Pfizer vaccine.  The testing so far suggests that it might be ok.  They don't know what the long term side effects might be, but I am hopeful that it will all work out

I like your optimism, Molly, but keep sending us positive vibes. I live around too many people like this in my red state, who won't wear a mask, and won't take the vaccine. Pastor Greg Locke:

“I’ll go to jail over this. It is the golden calf. I’m sick of Christians saying things like this: ‘Well, it’s just a mask.’ You know what they used to say? ‘Oh, it’s just a baby, it’s just a zygote, it’s just a growth in the mother’s womb so let’s kill it. No, it’s not just a mask, it’s a compliance device. This is not about safety, this is about surrendering of our rights. Can I remind you? This is still the United States of America. This is not communism. This is not China, this ain’t North Korea, I don’t live in Haiti,” he said. “Trump 2020. I’m a pastor and I approve this message.”

He also claimed that the world had jumped 50 years prophetically in the last six months.

“This ain’t about safety, this is about the rules of compliance. ‘It’s just a mask.’ Next, it’s just a chip, it’s just a vaccine, it’s just a one world government. ‘It’s just a mark, Pastor Locke.’ You say that’s a big stretch, are you kidding me? We’ve jumped 50 years prophetically in the last six months in 2020 in the United States and around the world and Christians want to say it’s just a mask. It’s not a mask. It’s a censorship device. It’s a tool to get all the sheep to walk around and look the same and talk the same and act the same,” he said."

https://www.christianpost.com/news/pastor-greg-locke-refuses-to-wear-masks-these-are-gags.html

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8 minutes ago, foneco Zuzu said:

 As long as the vaccine does not mean a free pass to forget about all we must endure to save; not only our lives but the lives of those who are around us.

 Wear a Mask when going out, period!

 

Though, if the vaccine works -- why bother getting it if it doesn't -- then I should be able to carry around a certificate of immunization and proof of a negative test and not have to wear a mask anymore.  If I don't have it and cannot get it, then I can't spread it.

 

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15 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Though, if the vaccine works -- why bother getting it if it doesn't -- then I should be able to carry around a certificate of immunization and proof of a negative test and not have to wear a mask anymore.  If I don't have it and cannot get it, then I can't spread it.

 

 What i was saying was that UNTIL a vaccine will be delivered we need to keep protecting our lives and others by Wearing a Mask when going outside.

 

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It's a real triumph of these vaccines that it may be rational to put away the masks once vaccinated. We'd been led to expect an effectiveness between 50 and 70%, which is useful for establishing immunity in the population but nowhere near adequate for individuals to consider themselves immune (at least not without a follow-up antigen test perhaps). At 95%, though, it's a different story.

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Saw this today, regarding what order people will be able to get the vaccine.  My guess is that the ability to move into the next Phase will depend upon the availability of doses.  At this point, based upon the statements by Pfizer, Phase 1a is expected to start sometime next month.

image.thumb.png.a8edd61805502c0b21e8480979f50df0.png

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