Why doesn’t LL limit creators more?

[FairreLilette]

19 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

It's up to people who decorate sims not to buy and rez stuff that causes a drop in frame rate. 

Buy and rez stuff that doesn't cause a drop in frame rate...such as prim items only, no sculpties, no mesh...or what exactly?  

Because I'm tired of the old prim stuff...I want a beautiful environment with at least some newer mesh objects.

Plus, from my experience as a lag-free Dinkie now...I can rez all kinds of lovely newer mesh objects but the biggie human avatars are still problematic.  It could be the biggie humans have too many scripts.  The objects usally don't have a lot of scripts...humans have scripted everything of the mesh variety that is.  

Edited March 2, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Lyssa Greymoon]

47 minutes ago, Tonk Tomcat said:

Be careful, people don't want to hear about limits in here

That's right, if someone else wants to set the jellydoll threshold on their viewer to 25,000, that's fine. I really don't need their help.

[Pussycat Catnap]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

 

Plus, from my experience as a lag-free Dinkie now...I can rez all kinds of lovely newer mesh objects but the biggie human avatars are still problematic.

Ah yes... But you see, that's because this:

Quote

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 2700 Eight-Core Processor           (3194 MHz)
Memory: 32684 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 18363.657)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce RTX 2080/PCIe/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 26.21.14.4219
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 442.19

Is apparently a 1994 cellphone...

And you noobs need to be buying a new computer every 30 minutes. The second to top GPU on sale right now, and second best CPU available... is for pathetic noobs on cellphones...

Or you know...

 

Folks could maybe enforce some constraints on what gets uploaded or do complexity calculations correctly and then remove ways to ignore extreme complexity so that creators would be forced to optimize their content if they wanted people to be able to use it.

 

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

.or what exactly?

Mesh alternatives with less triangles. Or not buy at all.

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

I want a beautiful environment

And the price for beauty is, quite naturally, a drop in frame rates.

[Coffee Pancake]

12 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

When you say "threaded platform," what do you mean exactly? OpenGL (as you brought up) is "threaded" in the sense that it has built-in systems to share data between multiple 'contexts' (OpenGL term) but only one context can be active and making draw calls at any time. However this doesn't mean OpenGL can't be used for multi-threaded rendering. It's just that no viewer does.

Vulkan isn't an inherently better option as we could also develop the viewers in C or Assembly (because they are "faster" languages).

Yes, all the viewers use OpenGL. However SL's architecture places the bottleneck at the processing stage, well before your graphics card gets a say in anything. The actual rendering part is the easy bit (which you will notice if you have a new GPU. Your CPU is pegged on at least one core, and your GPU is barely out of bed).

Getting more of the processing done by leveraging more cores sounds like an ideal solution, however with OpenGL everything has to come together at one point that's then rendered. More threading with OpenGL as the target is slower as threading brings it's own overheads. Vulkan is designed from the ground up to be fed by multiple cpu cores.

The language the viewer is written in doesn't really negatively impact, it's not like we're running it with python or anything. A lot of the processing the viewer does is not the kind that switching to anything else would benefit. It's a huge amount of work with no actual pay off .... although if anyone fancies, I'd suggest Rust ^^

4 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

Can we consumers start using pressure to convince creators to start saying no to events and slow TF down on releases?

Event frequency and the deadlines that imposes is required by many to treat SL as a serious commercial target (Hard deadlines are not a bad thing), the churn is the only thing keeping this viable. At the end of the day, even creators have to eat, sleep and not get burnt out. This whole circus is very self regulating.

Fewer events, fewer routes to market, increased prices and a slowing economy would be the kind of recession that could tank everything. Everyone (creators and LL) have a minimum point of viability and it's a lot higher than you might think.

We're on the tail end of a decades slow decline. More choice and events than you're comfortable shopping at is a good sign.

[Mollymews]

23 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

, buy a video card with more VRAM and use a viewer that grants access more than 512mb of it (this limit exists in the Linden client as some graphics adapters will outright lie about how much they  have, and trying to use what doesn't exist ends badly).

aha!

i always wondered about why the Linden viewer was 512mb.  Thanks

[FairreLilette]

5 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Mesh alternatives with less triangles. Or not buy at all.

And the price for beauty is, quite naturally, a drop in frame rates.

I read some of the triangles of items at one my clubs.

Most read 2 to 3 thousand; some were around 5K to 8K, and perhaps 1 or 2 were about 20K.  I did not read everything yet.  I have a lot of outdoor stuff so it looks like an outdoor venue - those read a lot lower - in the hundreds or so rather than in the thousands.  

My Dinkie cat avatar that I wear for my low lag life is 17K for highest and 8 for lowest.

I have no idea what these numbers mean.

What is a ballpark figure I am shooting for 'if' I want optimized content?  

Maitreya mesh body...I couldn't see where to read the triangles on it.  But, I don't wear Maitreya mesh body anymore...I was just wondering what the triangle count was.  

Here is a picture of part of my club...mesh body avatars would lag out here but Dinkies and other tinies do fine.  

I'm a Taurus...I have difficulty living a life without beauty.  To me, a life without beauty, is not worth living.  It's just who I am.  Visual arts are visual.  I am a visual artist.   

Via PS, I scribbled out my club's name.  But, again, this is only part of it.  The rest has mesh stuff too as well as shooting stars.

EDIT:  I just went searching for info on Maitreya's triangle count and the answer is not good.  I was trying to say it's not the stuff...it's the mesh avatar itself.  This is what I experienced as a Dinkie.  

This is what it says the triangle count for just a Maitreya mesh body is:   (Note:  Triangle count is not equal to nor does it have anything to do with complexity readings.)

Article:  (Note again - the article is talking about triangles not avatar complexity).

"Maitreya starts with 80,000-100,000 — only the base body. Belleza was something like 200,000+ last time I checked. Modern games use roughly 20-40k for an entire character. A few games use more, obviously, but 20-40k is standard today. So with 100-200k you can imagine how much more straining avatars are. And they are just bodies — [not counting]  clothes, no hair, nothing."

Even a single avatar wearing one of those bodies can hurt SL framerate performance by up to 5o%, and still more, as more avatars with these bodies enter the same space.

"SL is a complex system, not even super static tests always show the same results. So there's a +/- 10% here and there. But most scenes with single humans, wearing avatars built with either of these bodies, manages to half my framerate, if not make it completely unstable. I can see this behavior every day right in front of my parcel where human [avatars] travel to Firestorm's parcel. Just 1-2 of them are enough to drop me from 80-100 FPS down to 30-40 FPS on average… I’d say you generally see 30-50% reduction in your framerate for the first avatar, subsequently less for more."

Edited March 3, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Orwar]

8 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Also, I did not know SL had beginner (starting in SL) mesh avatars.  Which ones?

8 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Is it the genitalia hud specifically or huds in general?  I kind of wanted to know about huds in general for clothing and wearables and if the huds for clothing, etc 'do' create a lot of substantial lag or not.  

   It depends on several things, but yes, genitalia HUDs specifically do tend to have a lot of scripts in them, depending on how functional your bits are. AO HUDs, especially the ones that contain not only an AO but also dances, gestures, and all sorts of whatnots, can contain high amounts of scripts. Body and head HUDs are meant to be worn when you set your avatar up, i.e. when you're getting dressed - once you're done styling your avi, those HUDs should come off as they often contain a whole lot of scripts. 

   Clothing HUDs can vary wildly. Some are very lightweight scripted, and only really 'tell' your clothes to 'apply this UUID' when you click the button. Others contain more complex scripts for resizing and whatnot. How heavy the scripts are depends on how savvy the script maker was, and whether they focused on adding bells and whistles or making a functional but simple script that does the job and leaves it at that. For genitalia though, it's not just the HUD, but the bits themselves, having very high triangle count as well as scripts (or as I put it, potentially laggier than your dance partner).

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

2 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

What is a ballpark figure I am shooting for 'if' I want optimized content? 

For one, right click the object you plan to buy and select 'Edit'. Then cam inside the object to see if the creator uses 2,000 triangles to fill a flat surface . If so, think hard before buying it. Also try to estimate if a small household object like a vase uses a dozen of 1024 x 1024 textures. And then look at the land impact. A chair with a Land Impact of 5? That's kinda really bad.

Random image added for no good reason

I really don't know about exact numbers. So much depends on it. Not only triangle count matters, but also how many of this object are you going to rez? How large are the objects (what is the triangle 'density')? How many semi-transparent textures are going to be stacked upon each other in your view when rezzed? (Foliage will lower your frame rate significantly.)

You could also try it in a different way, through elimination. 

1. Determine frame rate before decorating.

2.Decorate as you like.

3. Assess whether your frame rate has dropped too much to your liking.

4. Remove items until frame rate is satisfactory.

But I think this is already done subconciously by most that decorate. This means discarding objects or using less of them, which may be costly, but it's also a learning moment. You also might want to estimate how much worse it will be for people with slower computers (say, divide your fps by two; is it 20/2=10? That's bad).

Remember folks, if you want to live in an SL world that looks as nice as on those Flickr blogger screenshots, prepare to have a frame rate of 1 per 4 seconds. (No, I don't mean you with your RTX 2080 machines, I mean us mere mortals.)

Edited March 3, 2020 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[FairreLilette]

7 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

For one, right click the object you plan to buy and select 'Edit'. Then cam inside the object to see if the creator uses 2,000 triangles to fill a flat surface . If so, think hard before buying it. Also try to estimate if a small household object like a vase uses a dozen of 1024 x 1024 textures. And then look at the land impact. A chair with a Land Impact of 5? That's kinda really bad.

Random image added for no good reason

I really don't know about exact numbers. So much depends on it. Not only triangle count matters, but also how many of this object are you going to rez? How large are the objects (what is the triangle 'density')? How many semi-transparent textures are going to be stacked upon each other in your view when rezzed? (Foliage will lower your frame rate significantly.)

You could also try it in a different way, through elimination. 

1. Determine frame rate before decorating.

2.Decorate as you like.

3. Assess whether your frame rate has dropped too much to your liking.

4. Remove items until frame rate is satisfactory.

But I think this is already done subconciously by most that decorate. This means discarding objects or using less of them, which may be costly, but it's also a learning moment. You also might want to estimate how much worse it will be for people with slower computers (say, divide your fps by two; is it 20/2=10? That's bad).

Remember folks, if you want to live in an SL world that looks as nice as on those Flickr blogger screenshots, prepare to have a frame rate of 1 per 4 seconds. (No, I don't mean you with your RTX 2080 machines, I mean us mere mortals.)

Okay, what is weird is my frame rate from my studio which doesn't have much in it only dropped 7 to 8 points at my club which has a lot in it.

Thanks for all the tips here, however.

I found something this morning next to ADVANCED with the new BOM Firestorm viewer.  Go to DEVELOPER, then RENDER METADATA, and click on TRIANGLE COUNT.  This will give you or me an instant read of all the triangles.  

What a difference though in a Dinkie avatar to a mesh body avatar in the triangles....it's like night and day.  

I never really had difficulty with decorating and lag though except at Halloween two years ago when I made my Haunted Mansion which was full of special effects and scripts.    Other than Halloween, I've not really experienced problems with my homes or clubs.   From my experience changing to a Dinkie from a human mesh avatar, it's the avatars or even better said - my human mesh avatar - my computer didn't like.  But, like I said I choose to become a Dinkie, finding out the low lag of it all was a secondary benefit and a surprize.  

Edited March 3, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Theresa Tennyson]

16 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Also, I did not know SL had beginner (starting in SL) mesh avatars.  Which ones?

 

8 hours ago, Orwar said:

 

None of those avatars are mesh avatars the way we typically think of them - they're system avatars with mesh clothing. The only all-mesh starter avatars that are exposed to new users now are the "vampire/monster" avatars. The avatars you're probably thinking of were from 2014 or so and there have been a few new generations of avatars since then, none of which have mesh bodies.

The entire idea of a "mesh avatar" that you buy separate clothing for is a bad one. You need to rig the clothing by guesswork to another item and you have invisible polygons in the avatar that you need to hide somehow. Most other games virtual populated environments have the avatar and its clothing as an integrated mesh and to change clothing you swap out the entire mesh. Everything fits and there's nothing to clip through.

Second Life could do the same thing now that BoM allows skin textures to be inherited from an outfit instead of being applied to an object. You could buy a shirt with arms and neck attached from one maker, and a pair of shorts with legs attached from another. You'd need standardized joint between sections, just like neck, hand and foot joints are now.

[ChinRey]

I'm gonna get killed for this!

Those who bother to read my posts are probably tired of seeing pictures of trees now - you can't see the forest for all of them! But here we go again.

 

20 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Buy and rez stuff that doesn't cause a drop in frame rate...such as prim items only, no sculpties, no mesh...or what exactly?  

Because I'm tired of the old prim stuff...I want a beautiful environment with at least some newer mesh objects.

It's not about prims vs mesh. Either can be high or low lag depending on how they are used.

This is a mesh tree made by a ... well , not very good mesh maker (no name given of course, tbh I didn't even check)

It's a mid range tree, good enough to be seen from any distance from up close to far away but not intended as a centerpiece of any landscape. It's made from 1082 big and small triangles coloured with about three million texture pixels. All of that has to be downloaded, prucessed by the cpu and then drawn and redrawn by the gpu over and over again, preferably at least 40 times every second.

This is a mesh tree by a top notch mesh maker:

It's a very different shape of course (no two trees grow up to look the same after all) but it's quite similar in actual visual complexity and it too is made to look good at any view distance but not to steal the thunder from everything surrounding it. This tree is made from 245 big and small triangles, painted with about half a million texture pixels.

You see the point? Less than a fifth of the bandwidth and time needed to download it, less than a fifth of the workload on your cpu and gpu and I dare say it looks at least as good.

This unnecessary overhead applies to avatars and rezzed objects, to prims and meshes and to complex and simple items and it's what more than anything else kills performance in SL. If we could get rid of it - or at least reduce it a bit - we would release a lot of spare computing capcaity that could be used to reduce lag, to add more lovely details to our virtual surroundings or, if you like, to open up claustrophobic little enclosed spaces into wide open landscapes.

Btw, I should mention, for all my criticism of that first tree I was actually pleasantly surprised when I saw it. For all its flaws it's actually a huge improvement from earlier meshes I've seen by the same creator (ummm.... I mean would have seen if I knew who it was). As long as there's progress, there's hope.

Edited March 3, 2020 by ChinRey

[Seicher Rae]

21 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

lots o stuff I agree with... enough s'ready with the same old same old at every event

because jean shorts and fishnets look horrifying to this 50 year old. 

O.o. Oh no you dint! I'm about ready to post a photo to the vanity thread of my outfit today, which while not quite jean shorts and fishnets, is kinda close. A POX! on your 50 yr old eyes, Beth! A pox! Cuz I look cute not horrifying and that's my story and I'm sticking with it. 

[Beth Macbain]

Just now, Seicher Rae said:

O.o. Oh no you dint! I'm about ready to post a photo to the vanity thread of my outfit today, which while not quite jean shorts and fishnets, is kinda close. A POX! on your 50 yr old eyes, Beth! A pox! Cuz I look cute not horrifying and that's my story and I'm sticking with it. 

I love jean shorts.

I love fishnet everything.

I do not love the two things together. 

Oh, you know what? It's the jean shorts. I do not love jean shorts. I'm just really not a fan of denim at all. I don't even own a pair of jeans in RL. 

I do own fishnets, though.

And I'm positive that you look like the goddess you are!

[FairreLilette]

56 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I'm gonna get killed for this!

Those who bother to read my posts are probably tired of seeing pictures of trees now - you can't see the forest for all of them! But here we go again.

 

It's not about prims vs mesh. Either can be high or low lag depending on how they are used.

This is a mesh tree made by a ... well , not very good mesh maker (no name given of course, tbh I didn't even check)

It's a mid range tree, good enough to be seen from any distance from up close to far away but not intended as a centerpiece of any landscape. It's made from 1082 big and small triangles coloured with about three million texture pixels. All of that has to be downloaded, prucessed by the cpu and then drawn and redrawn by the gpu over and over again, preferably at least 40 times every second.

This is a mesh tree by a top notch mesh maker:

It's a very different shape of course (no two trees grow up to look the same after all) but it's quite similar in actual visual complexity and it too is made to look good at any view distance but not to steal the thunder from everything surrounding it. This tree is made from 245 big and small triangles, painted with about half a million texture pixels.

You see the point? Less than a fifth of the bandwidth and time needed to download it, less than a fifth of the workload on your cpu and gpu and I dare say it looks at least as good.

This unnecessary overhead applies to avatars and rezzed objects, to prims and meshes and to complex and simple items and it's what more than anything else kills performance in SL. If we could get rid of it - or at least reduce it a bit - we would release a lot of spare computing capcaity that could be used to reduce lag, to add more lovely details to our virtual surroundings or, if you like, to open up claustrophobic little enclosed spaces into wide open landscapes.

Btw, I should mention, for all my criticism of that first tree I was actually pleasantly surprised when I saw it. For all its flaws it's actually a huge improvement from earlier meshes I've seen by the same creator (ummm.... I mean would have seen if I knew who it was). As long as there's progress, there's hope.

No, I kinda knew that Chin...that's what I've been saying in this thread....it's not the stuff!!!!!!!!!!!   Well, it is and it isn't.   Some of us are going around in circles.  

But, I do notice many older clubs seem almost afraid to even put one mesh object out.

I thought that was where he was going with his observations of drops in framerate...and he was gonna tell me to use prims as I see in almost all clubs.  

My framerate doesn't drop much from the mesh stuff (non-animated objects) 'except' around human mesh avatars or when I wear the human mesh body avatars.

That's why I tell a lot of people to try shopping inworld in a low complexity avatar or take off your mesh avatar and make yourself invisible when you go shopping and see if you see a difference in your lag because you will.  

Edited March 3, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Btw, I should mention, for all my criticism of that first tree I was actually pleasantly surprised when I saw it. For all its flaws it's actually a huge improvement from earlier meshes I've seen by the same creator (ummm.... I mean would have seen if I knew who it was). As long as there's progress, there's hope.

^^ this

what I like to to see is people improving their craft.  Whether it be mesh or prims or scripts or textures, etc. I l very much like when people become better at what they do make, and I like to watch their progress from new person banging stuff together in the some how any how way,  to accomplished creative

[Damian Mills]

On 2/28/2020 at 10:14 PM, JPG0809 said:

If this is the case, why doesn’t the lab construct a way to limit and refine the way creators can upload creations so it doesn’t bog down the grid.

Because the way they calculate cost right now is utterly insane yet they decided to go forward with it anyway when they introduced mesh.  In theory, there is the Arctan project which is going to redo how LI costs are calculated but that will do nothing for worn items.  I'd LOVE to know what was going through their heads when they introduced mesh with no even remotely adequate way to measure it's impact on the grid and the viewer.

By the way, I don't think they need to limit creators.  I just think the proper render weight for a mesh object needs to be calculated and figured in.  Then what we'd see is many of the current items would get a significant increase in LI and worn items would... well.... everyone's complexity would be like 750k or more.  At that point, real market forces would be at work.  Well designed mesh for rezzing would carry lower LI weights and so people would prefer it over crap mesh.  Mesh designed to be worn would be the same thing.  Sure you can wear that pear of pants you got from <insert big name creator here>.  But congratulation, it just added 300,000 to your complexity so nobody can see it.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

^^ this

what I like to to see is people improving their craft.  Whether it be mesh or prims or scripts or textures, etc. I l very much like when people become better at what they do make, and I like to watch their progress from new person banging stuff together in the some how any how way,  to accomplished creative

I agree. But then again - nine years of building with mesh semiprofessionally and they still haven't grasped the basics, that's not exactly a spectacular achievement.

 

[ChinRey]

16 minutes ago, Damian Mills said:

Because the way they calculate cost right now is utterly insane yet they decided to go forward with it anyway when they introduced mesh.

I don't think the land impact system was half bad for its time and for what it was intended for. The problems are that it's almost a decade old and a lot have changed since then, and it's only very recently LL has started to take client side load somewhat seriously - back then they couldn't care less.

 

[Mollymews]

Just now, ChinRey said:

I agree. But then again - nine years of building with mesh semiprofessionally and they still haven't grasped the basics, that's not exactly a spectacular achievement.

 

but then again again - any improvement no matter how long it takes is better than no improvement 😺

[Coffee Pancake]

44 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I don't think the land impact system was half bad for its time and for what it was intended for. The problems are that it's almost a decade old and a lot have changed since then, and it's only very recently LL has started to take client side load somewhat seriously - back then they couldn't care less.

 

I would be very surprised if any efforts to recalc land impact resulted in a situation where rezzed objects came in higher than they do now. LL flipping the switch and auto return kicking in grid wide ends in a roll back. The outcry over basics loosing a few groups is nothing next to the day we all log in to find half our stuff has vanished.

Avatar based stuff may well go up a lot .. and be promptly ignored as we all keep our ARC sliders to the max.

[Damian Mills]

On 3/3/2020 at 6:02 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

Avatar based stuff may well go up a lot .. and be promptly ignored as we all keep our ARC sliders to the max.

"We all"????

I'm running an I7-4790k and Nvidia GTX 1060 3gb.  At that, I have to keep my complexity slider at about 125k or so and shadows cannot be rendered at all in any sim with more than a handful of avatars.

i've often wondered what sort of system one needs to have to just go ahead and max out the settings and maintain a reasonable framerate anywhere other than home.  I, for one, would appreciate more reasonable (or any sort actually) calculations for avatar render weight.  

I agree on the LI.  That ship has sailed.... sadly.  They needed to do something about that when they introduced mesh.  Having missed that opportunity, i suspect we are just destined to live with the utterly ridiculous render weights even empty clubs tend to have.

[Mollymews]

 always interesting to me what each of us consider reasonable

i have i7-3770 3.4GHz CPU, 16GB DDR3 666MHz RAM. Asus P8B75-M MoB, 2560x1440 @75Hz screen, Asus 4GB GTX 1050Ti, 120GB Samsung 830 SATA SSD as the C :  drive

is 10 years old now my computer. It originally had a GTX 660 and a 1920x1024 screen. I stuck the 1050 in it last year. I never went higher than the 1050, as the tech shop down the road from me who built the computer back then, said not to as I would be best to get a new MoB and power supply if I went to the 1060 or higher. So I never

before this I played SL on a laptop. HP i3 CPU, NVidia 230GT. On ADSL. 0.7 down and 0.4 up. On a good day it puttered along between 6 and 16 FPS. And I was fine with this for about 4 years

then I got my box computer. Still ADSL but brmmm! between 16 and 45 FPS. Woohoo!

then finally they put fibre cable down my street over 1 year ago now. 50 down and 10 up. Brmmmmm! brmmmm! So then I got the 1050 and the 2K screen. Between 16 and 45 FPS most everywhere still, but with Shadows in glorious color on my 2K screen. I am in heaven relatively and historically speaking. Happy as I am

sometimes I have logged in to SL on my old laptop. It still goes. Putters along but is ok. Still does what it always did

basically my stuff does what it does. I focus on what I can do with what I have, and never mind what I can't do even if I would like to do all the things my stuff can't do

 

ps. I tested the max FPS of my 1050Ti on SL. By turn off all the inworld rendering. So blank screen other than the viewer frame. My Asus GTX 1050Ti has a max 104 FPS on SL rendering nothing

Edited March 6, 2020 by Mollymews
C

[Cackle Amore]

If I as in charge of user content stuff in LindenLabs, I would disable the 'generate' option for the lowest LOD for a month just to see what would happen

[animats]

3 hours ago, Digit Gears said:

If I as in charge of user content stuff in LindenLabs, I would disable the 'generate' option for the lowest LOD for a month just to see what would happen

That"s the big-hammer solution to the problem. The combination of the uploader's bad mesh reduction algorithm and SL's huge LI benefit for a very low poly lowest LOD leads to those messes of see-through triangles in the distance.